Shields are underpowered - Buff?

[MustBeAStandUser]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Darthgollum 01:

Actually i find that shields can be very powerful with the augur set on frames that use abilities a lot like loki etc and using the guardian mod on the robopet thingy i find that with that build type i barepy take any damage to health bar procs which dont affect me with a healer eximus clone down granting regen and immunity to all toxin stuffs

may i ask you, in which level range you are using this? 😮 and does it only work with a clone? (with a healer eximus dying is pretty much not a thing anymore, up to 1h+ on mot)

edit: yea the drone can be helpful too sometimes

Edited December 23, 2018 by Muzure

[Lakais]

One of the biggest issues I see with shield discussions is that people have different ideas as to what shields are. What function do they serve. In most cases the simplistic answer is: "It's blue health" but lets consider it differently. 

At base functionality, only a FEW frames have innate health regeneration. Through abilities or passives. Those that do, in general are the ones with lowest shield values. And with the two whose kits basically are built around self-healing have none at all. And all these systems are older then dirt in this game. Self-healing aids like auras, Life Strike and focus powers are new compared to having shields and health. And things not every player has instant access to. This has to be kept in mind. 

In that context, the purpose of shield is to be a reaction buffer. Some way for us to be able to take temporary damage as we get engaged by an enemy. So we wouldn't "die to a thousand cuts" over the course of a mission. It's not meant to be a part of our primary health pool, it's there to give us wiggle room to protect that health pool. And it has been like that since the game was 1.0 everything. 

I will agree that it is a very old system and needs to be looked at. But it has to be done in a way that does not break it's original purpose at base functionality. Meaning if you take your frame and strip off EVERYTHING. How it functions then. But I am for the concept of allowing more advanced players to modify how the shields function, not as a straight up upgrade, but alter it. Rather then a single pool, how about many smaller ones, layered to actually make the concept of shield-gating useful. Or a shield that doesn't block damage, but mitigates it. Acting as a sort of secondary, bonus armor value, armor for your armor. 

But to a change in the base functionality of shields I like the idea that having shields would basically protect the owner against most status effects. Toxin and gas damage however should pass through as those are potentially inhaled. Shield or no shield, Tenno and Corpus alike still need to breathe and a toxic cloud of gas tends to come along. (lets handwave that gas masks aren't that effective). As for the rest, I have no problem shields protecting against them. 

 

[.Unreality]

The only problem with Shields is they don't scale up as high as Health but if you don't have a plan to dedicate more than 1 mod slot to it, they're perfectly fine. Back in the day, nobody would ever use Vitality, you would even see Valkyr running Redirection, but now everyone just incorrectly ends the arguments with "Armour doesn't affect Shields". Now it's not entirely valid to look at Armour as a damage reduction since all frames have some Armour. It's more sensible to look at it as a multiplier to your base Health and then it's basically the same as Shields.

As an example, what if you want to use only 1 defence mod on Hydroid Prime with base 250 Armour, 100 Health and 175 Shield. On first glance, seeing that 250 Armour makes Vitality seem really desirable but 250 Armour only gives a 45.45% damage reduction which translates to 83.3% more effective Health. In this case, it's better to view it as having base 0 Armour, 183.3 Health and 175 Shield, is giving up passive regeneration worth about 5% extra total effective Health.

There's also other factors like the fact that Steel Fibre is pretty much a worthless mod for increasing health pool and we have flesh ferrite armour. Slash procs completely bypass armour and damage types that are strong against Ferrite Armour will deal damage as though we have reduced Armour. Notably, toxin damage destroys, ignoring shields and being strong against our Ferrite Flesh making it incredibly lethal, and the damage reduction from Armour will become non-existent when faced against Puncture which is very common or the admittedly rarer Corrosive damage.

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

On 2018-12-23 at 8:19 PM, Muzure said:

may i ask you, in which level range you are using this? 😮 and does it only work with a clone? (with a healer eximus dying is pretty much not a thing anymore, up to 1h+ on mot)

edit: yea the drone can be helpful too sometimes

Not sure what you mean by only working with a clone i first tried it on venus dark sector survival as Trinity with me a random and a bunch of other clones (a mag specter clem and an osprey) after realizing the immunity i tried it elsewhere though i believe i ran out of healer clones on uranus (too much gas on uranus lol XD) i have a bad habit of throwing down the clones when i can't see em anymore so probably wasted a bunch i believe i used some on helene to wave 15 for affinity farming 

 

Another problem I have is everything hates me so i can't seem to gain standing with suda or anyone and new loka doesn't seem to be sending kill squads after me so i don't seem to be getting anymore healers...or maybe cuz im leveling stuff like crazy whenever they send a hit squad on me im completely unprepared idk both could be possible any advice would be greatly appreciated idc much about new loka loving me but i want the limbo cataclysm augment so i need suda/hexis to love me and i believe suda was closer to almost caring

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

On 2018-12-23 at 10:09 PM, Unreality0 said:

The only problem with Shields is they don't scale up as high as Health but if you don't have a plan to dedicate more than 1 mod slot to it, they're perfectly fine. Back in the day, nobody would ever use Vitality, you would even see Valkyr running Redirection, but now everyone just incorrectly ends the arguments with "Armour doesn't affect Shields". Now it's not entirely valid to look at Armour as a damage reduction since all frames have some Armour. It's more sensible to look at it as a multiplier to your base Health and then it's basically the same as Shields.

As an example, what if you want to use only 1 defence mod on Hydroid Prime with base 250 Armour, 100 Health and 175 Shield. On first glance, seeing that 250 Armour makes Vitality seem really desirable but 250 Armour only gives a 45.45% damage reduction which translates to 83.3% more effective Health. In this case, it's better to view it as having base 0 Armour, 183.3 Health and 175 Shield, is giving up passive regeneration worth about 5% extra total effective Health.

There's also other factors like the fact that Steel Fibre is pretty much a worthless mod for increasing health pool and we have flesh ferrite armour. Slash procs completely bypass armour and damage types that are strong against Ferrite Armour will deal damage as though we have reduced Armour. Notably, toxin damage destroys, ignoring shields and being strong against our Ferrite Flesh making it incredibly lethal, and the damage reduction from Armour will become non-existent when faced against Puncture which is very common or the admittedly rarer Corrosive damage.

I think part of the reason shields are naturally lower than health is due to the fact that shields recharge health (except with nidus) doesn't

 

I build for shields and some health just as a precaution however my shields are carefully measured to my build (by which i mean i chuck everything at it XD) i use half the auger set especially on ability heavy frames (frames that are designed for lots of ability casting like loki limbo etc) id use more if i had it though so far ive only gotten pact message and accord (+180% shields +28~% duration and +60%dmg for secondary) each part of the set grants an additional 40% of energy used on abilities is converted to shields for a maximum of 240% with all 6 mods (some interesting things to be noted about it such as overshields if you use it a little below max shields) my taxon whenever im using it has guardian which straight uo fills my shields when they run out etc etc

Basically shields aren't bad/useless ya just gotta know how to use em otherwise yer wastin yer time on em and the fact that they recharge makes them theoretically better than health bar the few status types that ignore them but what game is fun without some form of balance in the damage to shields (if everything had to get through shields everyone would build shields and shield regen but as it is health is decent too)

I get the feeling that the 'meta' is extremely health based which isn't bad in itself but when the meta consists of players who often think everyone else should use their build and seems to think everyone else is a meta player and no one just wants to have some fun making a demonic looking butterfly that gases everything or a hyperspeed loki (for runs) or zephyr (for flight) (build duration then tap 1 for epic flight speed 😂) i think my point here is everything does something and in the end everyone just wants to have some fun (bar a few) everyone has fun differently i enjoy taking the weakest of the weak and attempting to defeat the strongest of the strong sometimes i can others i cant but i have fun dying over and over (i think i might be a masochist 😂) shields don't need buffed health doesn't need buffed or nerfed armour... What's armour do? (Im genuinely a bit confused by it) i don't think it needs changed but could be made clearer and finally the ability stuff all seems fine though again could be made clearer as to exactly whats happening it feels like de made a description then didn't bother to fix it with each update so mags "crush that destroys everything" was updated to "does dmg but not tons" though the description remained exactly the same and tailwind could be made clearer as to how duration affects the speed and the fact that tapping is possible too (i only tried it cuz im too dumb to read the ability properly and missed the "hold to temporarily fly" 

In short i think the only change needed is clarity not different numbers though im sympathetic towards changes as a student studying games design I understand the hell of programming and changing variable contents is much easier than reprogramming scripts for clear ability descriptions etc but it cant be helped when something changes that affects other stuff (such as the ability works differently to original) and there's something to tell the player about the original thing that needs updated too otherwise... well no one knows what stuff does

For example i thought when i saw mags 4 in use all the final abilities were overplayed slightly but i found some did exactly what they said and others did even more so now i don't know what revenant or garuda or even gara (cuz farming resources for her is boring to me) are capable of until i get then and use them myself which could take a very long time

Once again clarity is the problem not the numbers 

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Sorry kinda bogged it down with lots of stuffs hopefully its still readable though

[Chaemyerelis]

I like the idea of being immune to status' while shields are up.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

On 2018-12-22 at 8:28 AM, Muzure said:

I think everyone knows that. I think it would make sense to buff shields just a little bit

for example

as long as you got at least 1 shield point, you wont get physical procs - corpus would get tankier and players wouldnt build for grineer only

(they are always tankier than corpus, in any way, even if you build for them, corrosive will over strip and does less dmg then, or you build a viral/slash which even then corpus are more fragile.)

 

-armor and shield would be kinda even

-magnetism element wont be a waste anymore

-slash would get nerfed

-frames like mag or hydroid would get tankier (shield mods are no longer garbo)

-the impact proc will get buffed (because it wont appear that often anymore, lol, impact vacuums posterior)

 

i would love to see this, even as an event for a weekend as a test, thats just an idea

just to take the fear from overpowered buffs, which some ppl tend to have

thank you for reading, merry christmas

Redirection + adaptation = shield viability in endgame content. 

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

20 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

I like the idea of being immune to status' while shields are up.

True but i think it kinda breaks the game...i like the idea of being completely invulnerable permanently but if i was given it id get bored very quickly although perhaps a resistance to status effects instead of complete immunity

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Perhaps something like every 20% of shields remaining grants a 10% resistance to status effects 

It helps make shields more appealing while also preventing players from inverting the health meta and building for only shields for the complete status immunity (since any amount of shield translates to a percentage value equal to or less than 100)

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 2018-12-23 at 5:09 PM, Unreality0 said:

The only problem with Shields is they don't scale up as high as Health but if you don't have a plan to dedicate more than 1 mod slot to it, they're perfectly fine. Back in the day, nobody would ever use Vitality, you would even see Valkyr running Redirection, but now everyone just incorrectly ends the arguments with "Armour doesn't affect Shields". Now it's not entirely valid to look at Armour as a damage reduction since all frames have some Armour. It's more sensible to look at it as a multiplier to your base Health and then it's basically the same as Shields.

As an example, what if you want to use only 1 defence mod on Hydroid Prime with base 250 Armour, 100 Health and 175 Shield. On first glance, seeing that 250 Armour makes Vitality seem really desirable but 250 Armour only gives a 45.45% damage reduction which translates to 83.3% more effective Health. In this case, it's better to view it as having base 0 Armour, 183.3 Health and 175 Shield, is giving up passive regeneration worth about 5% extra total effective Health.

There's also other factors like the fact that Steel Fibre is pretty much a worthless mod for increasing health pool and we have flesh ferrite armour. Slash procs completely bypass armour and damage types that are strong against Ferrite Armour will deal damage as though we have reduced Armour. Notably, toxin damage destroys, ignoring shields and being strong against our Ferrite Flesh making it incredibly lethal, and the damage reduction from Armour will become non-existent when faced against Puncture which is very common or the admittedly rarer Corrosive damage.

What I believe is wrong with the mechanics in WF about mitigation...

Logical order is Shields>Armor>Health.

But we don't have indicators of Armor being destoyed. IF shields are only designed to give "breathing room", then they must fully be destroyed BEFORE affecting armor, and then if armor is "leaky", THEN the "cuts' start.

Armor is the missing indicator on the bar, the last barrier before health is affected. That's THE barrier between living and dying.

Tanking 101.

[Chaemyerelis]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

True but i think it kinda breaks the game...i like the idea of being completely invulnerable permanently but if i was given it id get bored very quickly although perhaps a resistance to status effects instead of complete immunity

Would it really be that strong though? Shield deplete pretty quick at higher levels.

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

3 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Would it really be that strong though? Shield deplete pretty quick at higher levels.

Yeah cuz my shields are rarely ever completely gone with guardian, auger at only 50% effectiveness and my mag specter if even just 1 shield grants total immunity my build would be duplicated improved and end up with endless shields and I myself would very rarely get any status effects

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Plus we don't wanna make shields too strong just give them a bit more meaning they already serve as a rechargeable second health bar extendable with overshields which a couple of my taxon mods get me to about 500 of

[MustBeAStandUser]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Darthgollum 01:

Plus we don't wanna make shields too strong just give them a bit more meaning they already serve as a rechargeable second health bar extendable with overshields which a couple of my taxon mods get me to about 500 of

nothing of what has mentioned in this thread would overpower shields, besides gating without cooldown

Edited December 25, 2018 by Muzure

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Complete immunity to all status effects while they're up does backread through my stuff for my reasoning and alternatives

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Besides de made toxin specifically bacause shields seemed too powerful health didn't matter back then cuz everyone has a million and one shields i agree that they're not perfect and the toxin damage should be reduced a bit to allow the squishy frames to take some hits from it but i don't think 100% immunity to status effects will help balance anything it just makes everyone revert back to the million and one Shields build

[MustBeAStandUser]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (XB1)Darthgollum 01:

Besides de made toxin specifically bacause shields seemed too powerful health didn't matter back then cuz everyone has a million and one shields i agree that they're not perfect and the toxin damage should be reduced a bit to allow the squishy frames to take some hits from it but i don't think 100% immunity to status effects will help balance anything it just makes everyone revert back to the million and one Shields build

why would immunity to procs, only while they are up be a bad thing? i am sure i made clear why that would be balancing, not only the shields, but pretty much the rest of the game out in general (like slash, or preudo tanks with low health but high shields, corpus as a whole, magnetism gets a buff, impact gets balanced out)
toxin i feel like is a punishment for feeling to safe, when you could have avoided it - for example against a nox or while running into a poison cloud - no problem with that
slash you can can from a random unit 50 meters away by a hitscan weapon and you can get a death sentence for no reason


btw i wrote physical procs, to exclude elemental procs

[Steel_Rook]

I'd like to bring a bit of a different perspective here. Get your shotguns ready, because I'm about to say something controversial: "Warframe is Payday 2 in space." While that's obviously not true in high-level content where the rules don't matter, the two games are built in remarkably similar ways and have gone through remarkably similar stages in their development, near as I can tell. Let me explain.

Like old-school Warframe, old-school Payday 2 gave players a pool of non-regenerating health, and then a pool of regenerating armour on top of it. The basic game design revolved around taking damage to armour only and then taking cover to let it regenerate. Unlike in Warframe, Payday 2's armour regenerates all at once, after 4 seconds of not taking damage. Healing in that game was only available through the use of Doctor Bags - a limited-use consumable players could either bring or pay to be present in the mission. As time went on, however, that dynamic began changing. Perk Decks were introduced and changed a few times. Grinder offered relatively low armour with a boosted health pool and MASSIVE health regeneration when doing damage. Muscle offered substantially boosted health and minor (2.5% per 4 seconds) health regeneration. Then you started seeing more exotic ones like Anarchist who constantly regenerates armour even under fire and finally Stoic who converts all armour to LOTS AND LOTS of health, takes damage as DPS only and has a key it can hit to discard remaining DOT and heal for part of it.

Almost all of these have counterparts in Warframe. More prominently, however, both games seem to have progressed from a slower-paced, more tactical shooter where shields were trash and players were meant to take cover more often, to a game where players are able to tank damage and trade with enemies for the most part. Payday 2 has also always had shield gating. No shot could deal damage to both shields and health at the same time (except snipers). What that meant is that players were encouraged to grab abilities which recharged a LITTLE bit of shield very quickly, typically Bullseye for doing headshots. For low-shield builds, it didn't really matter how big the buff was, because you'd lose your shield in one shot anyway. All you cared about was that you got SOME amount. Because Payday 2 also has a damage grace period (you can't take damage for 0.4 seconds after taking damage, unless you receive a more powerful hit), that meant that some players could effectively remain invulnerable for long periods of time even with low health and shields. Add to this the Armourer Perk Deck, which has I believe a 1-second invulnerability window after losing shield altogether, making for even more shield-gating.

Mind you, I use the term "shied" to be consistent with Warframe. In Payday 2, that's always "armour."

Long story short is I don't thing shield-gating is a good idea for Warframe, or indeed for video games in general. It's an excessively cheesy mechanic which promotes counter-intuitive builds focused around minor, rapid shield-regenerating abilities in order to tank massive hits on next to no shields. I'd personally rather retain the game's current way of handing shield-and-health damage, and instead go one of two ways. Either give shields a damage resistance stat while they're up, or simply remove the shield recharge delay. I'm of the opinion that Warframes should feature high-shield "tanks" in similar ways to its high-health tanks ala Nidus and especially Inaros. Frames like Harrow, Revenant and Mag ought to be able to stand their ground based purely on shields better than just having ~2000 EHP's worth of them.

If you want to be really fancy, you can do both and simply put both shield recovery speed and shield "resilience" on the Fast Deflection mod.

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

Try this then: scenario a with 100% immunity to status) im using my normal build with taxon mag specter and whichever frame i want to use i go to infested survival cuz infested are a bit easier to deal with an infested osprey comes along and does its usual fart attack right through me but i still have shields so absolutely nothing hapens i kill it and each time my shield drops to 0 taxon or mag patch it up again and the majority of the time my ability uses with the auger set are keeping me from the shields dropping to 0 meaning all the infested ospreys are now pointless since i never take status effects cuz my shields are endlessly up

 

Scenario b where the shields grant a resistance to status as oppised to complete immunity) running around on infested survival with my usual build etc but this time when the osprey farts on me somewhere in program runtime land an effective die is rolled generating a percentage then i could get affected by the toxin or maybe not

it keeps the sence of urgency to everything and ensures there's still a challenge for higher lever players with lots of mods for shields while maintaining the usefulness of the shields 

[Ekemeister]

Okay. I'm going to keep this simple. 

The buff to shields has already dropped. You're looking for the mod called: ADAPTATION. 

dmg reduction stacks also proc when shields take a hit. 

Shields fade behind health because of a couple reasons: 

1: Health has a higher EHP value (mentioned ad nauseum) 

2: Health now has ways for players to control its regen (various frame abilities, life strike, magus elevate / nourish / repair, equilibrium, healing return, et cetera)

3.0: Health Damage Gives bonus energy (Rage / Hunter Adrenaline). 

3.1: Energy can be used as backup health (Gladiator Finesse & Quick Thinking) 

On 2018-12-23 at 1:26 PM, Lakais said:

One of the biggest issues I see with shield discussions is that people have different ideas as to what shields are. What function do they serve. In most cases the simplistic answer is: "It's blue health" but lets consider it differently. 

At base functionality, only a FEW frames have innate health regeneration. Through abilities or passives. Those that do, in general are the ones with lowest shield values. And with the two whose kits basically are built around self-healing have none at all. And all these systems are older then dirt in this game. Self-healing aids like auras, Life Strike and focus powers are new compared to having shields and health. And things not every player has instant access to. This has to be kept in mind. 

In that context, the purpose of shield is to be a reaction buffer. Some way for us to be able to take temporary damage as we get engaged by an enemy. So we wouldn't "die to a thousand cuts" over the course of a mission. It's not meant to be a part of our primary health pool, it's there to give us wiggle room to protect that health pool. And it has been like that since the game was 1.0 everything. 

I will agree that it is a very old system and needs to be looked at. But it has to be done in a way that does not break it's original purpose at base functionality. Meaning if you take your frame and strip off EVERYTHING. How it functions then. But I am for the concept of allowing more advanced players to modify how the shields function, not as a straight up upgrade, but alter it. Rather then a single pool, how about many smaller ones, layered to actually make the concept of shield-gating useful. Or a shield that doesn't block damage, but mitigates it. Acting as a sort of secondary, bonus armor value, armor for your armor. 

But to a change in the base functionality of shields I like the idea that having shields would basically protect the owner against most status effects. Toxin and gas damage however should pass through as those are potentially inhaled. Shield or no shield, Tenno and Corpus alike still need to breathe and a toxic cloud of gas tends to come along. (lets handwave that gas masks aren't that effective). As for the rest, I have no problem shields protecting against them. 

 

I'm keen on the idea of mods affecting the behavior of shields.

Modding for Hard shields or a dmg reduction cloak sounds awesome. Armor affecting shields would affect the meta. 

"Thermokinetic capacitors" (shield damage gifting energy) would be a needed analogue for Rage / Hunter Adrenaline.

I definitely second the prior / above motions.  

[MustBeAStandUser]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Darthgollum 01:

Try this then: scenario a with 100% immunity to status) im using my normal build with taxon mag specter and whichever frame i want to use i go to infested survival cuz infested are a bit easier to deal with an infested osprey comes along and does its usual fart attack right through me but i still have shields so absolutely nothing hapens i kill it and each time my shield drops to 0 taxon or mag patch it up again and the majority of the time my ability uses with the auger set are keeping me from the shields dropping to 0 meaning all the infested ospreys are now pointless since i never take status effects cuz my shields are endlessly up

 

Scenario b where the shields grant a resistance to status as oppised to complete immunity) running around on infested survival with my usual build etc but this time when the osprey farts on me somewhere in program runtime land an effective die is rolled generating a percentage then i could get affected by the toxin or maybe not

it keeps the sence of urgency to everything and ensures there's still a challenge for higher lever players with lots of mods for shields while maintaining the usefulness of the shields 

i have no idea in which level range you play, that shields are not instantaneous down
i think thats already in sorties the thing
you could argue, that the starchart will become to easy then (lets pretend status is a thing then), but then make the ressistance a 3rd Potato you can only get through sorties (as a replace for endo and ayatan, lol)

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

11 minutes ago, Muzure said:

why would immunity to procs, only while they are up be a bad thing? i am sure i made clear why that would be balancing, not only the shields, but pretty much the rest of the game out in general (like slash, or preudo tanks with low health but high shields, corpus as a whole, magnetism gets a buff, impact gets balanced out)
toxin i feel like is a punishment for feeling to safe, when you could have avoided it - for example against a nox or while running into a poison cloud - no problem with that
slash you can can from a random unit 50 meters away by a hitscan weapon and you can get a death sentence for no reason


btw i wrote physical procs, to exclude elemental procs

Oh mustve missed the physical only part my bad although i still think everything is fine as it is for the most part corpus deal heavy slash damage for anti shields but irradiate em and they're brilliant anti corpus (also an enemy that's irradiated fires at the closest target but the targets and the other non irradiated guys fire back making it decent crowd control) i believe slash is much less dps than toxin impact staggers and im not sure what puncture does i think we're better with slash if we start getting stuffs like slash taken off even temporarily de would likely add the numbers in as toxin values

[MustBeAStandUser]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Ekemeister:

Okay. I'm going to keep this simple. 

The buff to shields has already dropped. You're looking for the mod called: ADAPTATION. 

dmg reduction stacks also proc when shields take a hit. 

Shields fade behind health because of a couple reasons: 

1: Health has a higher EHP value (mentioned ad nauseum) 

2: Health now has ways for players to control its regen (various frame abilities, life strike, magus elevate / nourish / repair, equilibrium, healing return, et cetera)

3.0: Health Damage Gives bonus energy (Rage / Hunter Adrenaline). 

3.1: Energy can be used as backup health (Gladiator Finesse & Quick Thinking) 

I'm keen on the idea of mods affecting the behavior of shields.

Modding for Hard shields or a dmg reduction cloak sounds awesome. Armor affecting shields would affect the meta. 

"Thermokinetic capacitors" (shield damage gifting energy) would be a needed analogue for Rage / Hunter Adrenaline.

I definitely second the prior / above motions.  

im sorry but this is the most mr5 thing i read in a while...
no offense ._.

[MustBeAStandUser]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (XB1)Darthgollum 01:

 i believe slash is much less dps than toxin 

wtf ._.