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Anthraxicus

Waframe, DE and the problem with rewards.

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On 2018-12-24 at 3:35 AM, SenorClipClop said:

When you argue about the design of Warframe from the perspective of the rewards as you've done in the OP, you are excusing yourself from a discussion about game design. Instead, what you're really discussing is that the amount of dopamine hitting your system for completing the Skinner Box isn't satisfactory to you and you want more dopamine. Debating the gameplay, you're the scientist; arguing the reward, you're the mouse.

"TENNO NEED MORE DOPAMINE! MORE SEROTONIN!"~Murdoch Murdoch~

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On 2018-12-23 at 11:53 AM, (PS4)chubbslawson said:

Why not?  We all put the time in 

Not his point

We vets put in a small amount of time at the start to get to what used to be the top, then waited for more chance to farm

New players today have to put in much, much more time to get close to the top, much less actually reach it

This is not bad in and of itself -- having a long list of challenges you can pace yourself with can be a good thing. But Monkey is worried WF is reaching a tipping point that it's less "long list of fun challenges" and more "daunting list of stuff you'll never earn without turning WF into your second job"

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On 2018-12-23 at 7:08 PM, Anthraxicus said:

... The reward table for the "bounty" is nothing but a bunch of randomly selected rewards which are ...

RNG is the name of the game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

cQ3elHF.gif

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I am on the fence for this one.

On the one hand, DE tend to not add good rewards at the release because we always will do our best to find a way to instakill the boss and will sit on a pile of rare loot in an hour as a result. While complaining about content drought. And to be honest, Profit Taker is the first boss out of the 3, just like Terry, so the rewards are ok. Reputation and credits are the main points of interest (for me) and in a couple of months, we will have more Systems then we will ever need.

On the other hand, the tricks DE used this time to slow us down are extremely annoying. Elevator music and loading screens? Arghh!

As for Corpus weapons with random stats rewards: how random? Rivens? No. I will take credits over another slot machine any day. Something more reasonable? We have modular weapons, right?

Edited by rand0mname
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On 2018-12-23 at 12:41 PM, DeMonkey said:

Every day we stray further from god the baseline that new players start at.

God damn. This made me laugh to the point of tears.

It's the brutal truth.

But tears...real tears.

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6 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Not his point

We vets put in a small amount of time at the start to get to what used to be the top, then waited for more chance to farm

New players today have to put in much, much more time to get close to the top, much less actually reach it

This is not bad in and of itself -- having a long list of challenges you can pace yourself with can be a good thing. But Monkey is worried WF is reaching a tipping point that it's less "long list of fun challenges" and more "daunting list of stuff you'll never earn without turning WF into your second job"

what is this top you are referring to, also what do you mean that they have to put in more time? isn't that time just relative.

for example someone who played 2 years ago vs someone starting today. they will go through pretty much the same thing. the only different is the person starting today is well.. starting today. i dont see how that new player is "suffering" from a longer grind. 

in fact from what i have seen. things a alot easier than 2 years back

is DE supposed to wait for all the new players to catch up before releasing something? because otherwise. that "long list of challenges" is always there for newer players (well its there regardless for newer players)

Edited by Makunogo
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1 minute ago, Makunogo said:

what is this top you are referring to

The state of having everything worth having. You know, the entire point of the grind to get more stuff. So that you can have all the stuff

2 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

also what do you mean that they have to put in more time? isn't that time just relative.

No

There is more stuff worth having. And since getting stuff isn't faster, that means it takes more time to get everything. That's not relative, that's as close to objective as you can get

When I started playing there were 300 weapons and 30 Warframes, including Primes separately. Today those numbers have doubled

And I started playing before Prime vault was a thing, I can't imagine how a newcomer would react to the amount of time it would take to have Prime versions of all his favorite frames

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10 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The state of having everything worth having. You know, the entire point of the grind to get more stuff. So that you can have all the stuff

No

There is more stuff worth having. And since getting stuff isn't faster, that means it takes more time to get everything. That's not relative, that's as close to objective as you can get

When I started playing there were 300 weapons and 30 Warframes, including Primes separately. Today those numbers have doubled

And I started playing before Prime vault was a thing, I can't imagine how a newcomer would react to the amount of time it would take to have Prime versions of all his favorite frames

its roughly the same amount of time. i dont remotely consider this a hindrance at all. 

also Everyone has to make those weapons? the end result is the same still. 

who determines whats "worth having?" imo thats an individual thing.

i do not consider myself a vet. i dont have everything in the game, however i am satisfied with what i have.

if anything vets have/had a bigger grind and older players as well (ie founders). they have things newer players will never be able to obtain.

im failing to see how its longer. the only key difference here is accessibility. 

for example purposes lets use the war within. 

new player cant go into that quest for a while. should we just remove the restriction because "it takes time to reach that point?"

the restriction being the pre-requisites.

unless i'm missing a key point this seems odd to me.

Edited by Makunogo
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3 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

its roughly the same amount of time

This is objectively wrong, if I don't factor in this other thing you're spouting off:

4 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

if anything vets have/had a bigger grind and older players. they have things newer players will never be able to obtain,

1: The vets have already done that grind. Zero grind remaining. Not true for a newcomer, they have lots of grind remaining

2: I don't see how that's any less discouraging. "Hey I COULD play this game that promises it has plenty of content for me even coming in later than the vets, but a lot of content is locked behind special items that I can't obtain and have to beg for. Do I really want to play this game when I could go back to Fallout 77? Or Fortnight 2 or whatever the hot new game is going to be in 2019"

Lastly we have this:

8 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

i do not consider myself a vet. i dont have everything in the game, however i am satisfied with what i have.

You have a completely different perspective from me. That's not an insult, I promise. But you are trying to argue that your perspective is the norm for a newcomer, while my argument is predicated on the idea that your argument is incorrect. I respect your argument, but I disagree with it

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5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This is objectively wrong, if I don't factor in this other thing you're spouting off:

1: The vets have already done that grind. Zero grind remaining. Not true for a newcomer, they have lots of grind remaining

2: I don't see how that's any less discouraging. "Hey I COULD play this game that promises it has plenty of content for me even coming in later than the vets, but a lot of content is locked behind special items that I can't obtain and have to beg for. Do I really want to play this game when I could go back to Fallout 77? Or Fortnight 2 or whatever the hot new game is going to be in 2019"

Lastly we have this:

You have a completely different perspective from me. That's not an insult, I promise. But you are trying to argue that your perspective is the norm for a newcomer, while my argument is predicated on the idea that your argument is incorrect. I respect your argument, but I disagree with it

 

A vet has 0 grind, because they have Already done it. that is still time spent. on average the vets have 3k+ hours. how are we omitting this fact?

it seems like the way the earlier post was implied that. the newer players have to spend MORE time getting the same grind.

which is what i disagree with as things have become significantly easier.

Edit: i am just under 1.7k hours and i'm pretty late into the game, i've also caught up with most of my longer running players.

most of their hours is honestly spent talking then anything else >.>

unrelated to that - more or less - a lot of games have content that is inaccessible until late game (how long that late game takes is dependent on the game). this isn't a new concept.

Edited by Makunogo
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The only rewards I absolutely dislike are relics (especially in the open worlds and new game modes) and rotational mod rewards (because you need them 1x and after that it sucks to get another one/hundred) ..

Beyond that it's fine for me..

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12 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

The only rewards I absolutely dislike are relics (especially in the open worlds and new game modes) and rotational mod rewards (because you need them 1x and after that it sucks to get another one/hundred) ..

Beyond that it's fine for me..

how does one fix such a problem? i actually do not mind the relics because at least they come radiant (which saves some time trace farming)

Actually i think the CETUS bounties is a doable way to possibly fix this (if even temporarily) 

the rewards cycle on each - earth rotation?, every 2 hours i think? -  

the set mods change which makes it slightly easier to do targeted farming, perhaps something along these lines would make the grind a bit more enticing.

what do you think?

For example on 1 full venus cycle we have repeller, the other we have gyro mag, the other we have ... i forget the 3rd one. 

this way the reward pool will have less things in it and we are more likely to actually get what we want. 

but this doesn't solve the problem of replayability that much.

but this is actually why i liked the low drop rate on these materials. after we are done crafting, we dont need them.

with the increased drop rates were soon going to have the issue of having Too much redundant crap we dont want. however i also think its kind of hard for DE to  have/make a reward that we can get constantly AND is still worthwhile.

if that item is saleable - its farmed en mass and then becomes worthless. 

if its untradeable, it just stockpiles over time.

cycling rewards can help make the content more target to what we want however once were done were still done.

i think what we need is something else to use the drops/standing on. Like Relic packs - honestly this should be in every syndicate.  its not the best thing but its something.

 

i totally went off topic LOL

Edited by Makunogo
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6 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

RNG is the name of the game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

cQ3elHF.gif

RNG plays no role on selecting the items that go into the loot tables. None. Some relics, mods that nobody will use (and are worthless if you already have them) and the new "resources" that can only be obtained through these bounties, not as actual resources, just to claim that the bounties have rewards. 

Edited by Anthraxicus
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my only problem is de acts like they want nothing in this game to be actually rare as long as its not rivens. there should be some stuff that gets progressively harder to obtain. if players had a bunch of content that took months to do, there would be lot less complaints about "content droughts". 

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A lot of people don’t like that but... 

 

Cap weapon bonus damage at 300%

Crit at 100%

Warframe power at 250 or 200

Duration at 250 

range at 200 or 250

 

and so on... because we don’t have caps we can blow everything up and reach absurd powerlevels with frames. DE should give us caps and THEN you could see an increase in challenge and so on without hurting anyone because all missions are ez even with a basic build... we don’t need to be godlike in every game...

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Back in my day we played games to have fun. We didnt need to be shoved a reward every 5 minutes. Also uphills both ways etc

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Hmm...can't really help you on this...other than I see a nice reward for these fights would be the unlocking of a Riven on completion of the mission against one of these Orbs or Eidolons circumventing whatever hoops you have to jump through listed on the mod, maybe even giving you an option to re-roll if it's already unlocked...without having to resort to farming that one Kuva survival mission or worse the normal Kuva missions around the map...

 

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7 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

RNG is the name of the game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

cQ3elHF.gif

Everything in Warframe should be based on RNG

Also where is that Gif from exactly?

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6 hours ago, Anthraxicus said:

RNG plays no role on selecting the items that go into the loot tables. None. Some relics, mods that nobody will use (and are worthless if you already have them) and the new "resources" that can only be obtained through these bounties, not as actual resources, just to claim that the bounties have rewards. 

Padding the drop tables with barely useful fluff rewards has been a thing since the beginning.

If every reward were useful there'd be no reason to complain about it, nor would it help to sacrifice an Oberon to RNGesus every now and then.

 

Edit:

4 hours ago, Genesix6 said:

Also where is that Gif from exactly?

No idea, sorry. It's been making the rounds here since forever.

Edited by Kontrollo
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7 hours ago, Makunogo said:

it seems like the way the earlier post was implied that. the newer players have to spend MORE time getting the same grind.

which is what i disagree with as things have become significantly easier.

Yeah that's not what our side is arguing

I repeat my example: I started playing Warframe when there were 300 weapons and 30 Warframes. Let's say that takes X amount of hours to grind for

Now we have a new player coming in today, when there are 600 weapons and 60 frames. We say that takes approximately 2X amount of hours to grind for. After all, twice the content means twice the amount of resources and twice the amount of runs to get things to drop

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17 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yeah that's not what our side is arguing

I repeat my example: I started playing Warframe when there were 300 weapons and 30 Warframes. Let's say that takes X amount of hours to grind for

Now we have a new player coming in today, when there are 600 weapons and 60 frames. We say that takes approximately 2X amount of hours to grind for. After all, twice the content means twice the amount of resources and twice the amount of runs to get things to drop

but that example ignores the fact that, the older players are still going to be ranking up those new items that everyone else is getting. thus making the grind the same.

also like to point out that ranking items up is hardly time consuming. (2 waves of ESO gets it done now apparently)

 its part of the games progression.

also the older players have gear that is also exclusive so they may have up to 620 - per the example which btw i logged on and its under 500 with everything (including frames),

i'm currently at 493, while i think some of the players who been around longer then me are prob at 497-515 or something. 

in which case no matter how much weapons comes out. an older player will always have more items to level which directly indicates they have spent more time ranking up. as they literally have had more things to level.

 

maybe ill just use Math in case you still are not getting it.

older player has 300 weapons and 30 frames.  - lets say that takes 200 hours .

New items come out  300 more weapons and 30 frames. thats an other 200 hours .

 lets say a new player comes in today, 

they have 600 weapons and 60 frames, thier grind time will be 400 hours. 

but wait. 

there was 10 exclusive items the older player had that the newer player cant get. 

so the newer player max items is actually 390. 

thier grind will be less then the total 400 hours. as they have 10 less items to level

then also take into account that ranking things up is significantly faster now via adaro/ESO/SO. 

so that 400 hour grind will probably be cut even by lets say 25% which makes it 300 hour grind.

 rounded up cus lazy

irrefutably a newer player has a shorter grind then we do. the time spent is clearly shorter for the newer player. heck even focus is significantly quicker then it was before by a huge margin.

 

Edited by Makunogo
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On 2018-12-23 at 1:08 PM, Anthraxicus said:

The devs simply don't care about incentivizing players to push as far as they can.

Two issues.

1.) DE has stated that they are not fans of players spending literally hours in the same mission doing the same gameplay over and and over.  The limits of your game should be how good you are as a player and what equipment you have, NOT the physical endurance of your bladder or the amount of free time you have available to throw at a game. Rewarding people for "pushing as far as they can" is an indirect slap in the face to people with busy lives, people with jobs, people with chores and responsibilities, people that get uncomfortable sitting for long periods of time, and frankly it's unhealthy for us as gamers to be encouraging anybody to play a game for hours at a time without resting.

2.) "As far as they can" is functional insanity. Anything that can be targeted by melee finishers will die in one hit to Covert Lethality, period. Where's the challenge?  Enemies will never see through invisibility. They will never escape Bastille. They will never hit Limbo through the rift. They will never force Valkyr to actually take damage while in hysteria or resist Loki's disarm. We have a variety of tools and features that they can use to avoid taking damage entirely, so how do you propose to make the game get increasingly difficult if you can't actually rely on being able to even touch the players? Basically the only actually dangerous thing to a prepared team is Nullifiers, and players hate them so much that they've been nerfed half a dozen times since being introduced.  There is no difference in gameplay once you reach the point where enemies will kill you instantly if you take damage, and everything past that point is just an exercise in how many damage multipliers you can stack to keep up with the spawns/timers.

Players keep asking for more power and refuse to allow nerfs to any of the game-breaking stuff, and we're left with a game that is, in an overwhelming majority of cases, only as hard as you want it to be. So any concept of rewarding players for "trying hard" must include either harsh rebalances or new systems that don't permit you to use the lazy mode stuff that trivializes the game.  Arbitrations is an experiment in solving that, by offering high value rewards while preventing auto-nukes and permanent crowd control from working, but look at how many people hate it.

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