Waframe, DE and the problem with rewards.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

On 2018-12-23 at 10:21 AM, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

And this is my problem with the community definition of rewards.

For the community, rewards needs to be MORE POWER! If isn't more power, then its a useless reward. Powercreep is a huge problem in this game, right now there's NOTHING hard in this game. Players are so OP that DE needs to add cheap enemies to counter the players. Adding weapons with better stats will only make things worse.

Thats why DE doesn't do it. Its not a simple thing to fix "Hey, just put a bunch of weapons with better stats as rewards and its done"

The only way to make this balanced is making these weapons sidegrades from already existing weapons. However like I said, people don't like sidegrades, they only want more power.

That's not really true. It just takes too long to get to the hard content. DE doesn't need to add cheap enemies to counter players. They do it because they don't actually want to add hard content. They just call it hard and add artificial challenge and then everybody can still play. They don't want content that excludes some players. 

It's similar to superhero stories. If a superhero is extremely powerful, you balance the story with really powerful enemies. You don't just give Superman some Batman level enemies to fight, and then think "we need to make Superman less powerful to balance this". That would make Superman less appealing to people who got interested because of his power. You just make more and more powerful enemies for him to fight. The power creep should just be on both sides since this is a powerful fantasy at this point. You can't really go back or you lose a lot of your audience and make your game look more and more generic. 

The only way to make this balanced for the people who care is to create content that keeps frames and weapons from feeling too OP. Those people probably don't do endurance, otherwise why would they say stuff like "players are so OP"? Even if you play endurance and think it isn't super challenging, you know you're not OP when enemies reach levels that are more than double what you can get in the Simulacrum. It's just not the same game when the enemies are lvl 300, 400, etc. I can't even imagine what lvl 1000, 2000, 3000 would be. I just don't think it's fair to nerf frames and weapons. Too many players love the power fantasy and too many players love long endurance runs, so I don't see the value of nerfing us.

Most of us don't have the patience, but we still don't like being completely OP, so DE should just give us quicker access to high lvl enemies. 

[ranks21]

2 hours ago, Momaw said:

.) DE has stated that they are not fans of players spending literally hours in the same mission doing the same gameplay over and and over

like it or not  endless missions and pushing yourself as long as you can is what makes and keeps Warframe going with its players. De knows this even though they don't like the fact.

Fortuna, POE, Raids, DS, Lunaro the list goes on of failed and missed opportunities. even though some might not be endless missions per say, in reality they emulate endless missions deceptively enough with their mechanics to make it just as boring and drawn out with little to nothing worth striving towards.

ive stopped playing for 2 months now and played yesterday for an hr on Ophelia a survival mission (for those who doesn't know the node) and the game itself didn't even dropped a rare mod in that time span= pointless.

2 hours ago, Momaw said:

Rewarding people for "pushing as far as they can" is an indirect slap in the face to people with busy lives, people with jobs, people with chores and responsibilities

this is plain bs^ the flipside to this why bother play if said ppl with responsibilities have some free time to burn and want to push themselves/ gears?

 

2 hours ago, Momaw said:

Players keep asking for more power and refuse to allow nerfs to any of the game-breaking stuff, and we're left with a game that is

wrong here aswell, nerfs didn't make the game any better or more enjoyable  and quite frankly speaking the game isn't "broken" if a weapon is or was powerful not once has this happened.

 

2 hours ago, Momaw said:

There is no difference in gameplay once you reach the point where enemies will kill you instantly if you take damage, and everything past that point is just an exercise in how many damage multipliers you can stack to keep up with the spawns/timers.

this is true, and is the only point in warframe like it or not, once you have reached and surpassed this realization/threshold there is nothing left to do or play towards because there wasn't any to begin with.

 

2 hours ago, Momaw said:

Arbitrations is an experiment in solving that, by offering high value rewards while preventing auto-nukes and permanent crowd control from working, but look at how many people hate it.

most of the players didn't hate the arbi mode, we hated the fact that it got dumbed down and the rewards were garbage from the get-go.

[1ivay1]

On 2018-12-23 at 7:32 PM, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

WF is a FTP game. The stuff that drops from current content competes with buying the gear. It's the "price" to pay to play FTP games. Pay or grind.

No one likes that, but that's the FTP model. Either you pay with cash or pay with time.

But I'll say that a better thing they can do for current content is to drop items people can use for like companions surviving! Doing higher content and people bring in their Kavats and they spend so much time rezzing them (it's difficult to figure out if it's a frame who has died or a pet, too. Not running back to rez a pet and risk dying. How about a text message of "XYZ (Pet) has died" not a generic message, too?).

These instances/missions can drop loot that doesn't need to compete with current BUY THIS GEAR concept in FTPs, that are just as useful to players, too!

That is completely incorrect. There needs to be SOMETHING you can get at end-game that you can't buy with platinum, unique skins, badges, glyphs etc

F2P game companies are so deep with tax exemptions, you seriously think DE need money to the point where everything needs to be balanced around buying platinum? They're also majority owned by a Chinese based firm, which equals more tax exemptions, lower hiring fees etc. 

2017 = 

Revenue: Up 49% to 166.7mil USD.

Grofit: Up 53% to 110.7mil USD.

STOP treating DE like some poor, indie developer, they are NOT. It's about time after years of support, they should stop putting plat purchases at the top of everything. 

[Chappie]

10 minutes ago, 1ivay1 said:

STOP treating DE like some poor, indie developer, they are NOT. It's about time after years of support, they should stop putting plat purchases at the top of everything. 

Did DE in any way shape or form make you spend even 1 bolívar to play their game?   Furthermore, should follow on movies, like say the avengers, make their next movie free to see because they "made so much money"?   The business of business is business.   This means, at the end of the day, if you own a business you want to make money and maximize your revenue/profit.  The question then becomes is do you want your business model to be sustainable?   But no rational person is gonna say "hey folks, lets stop making as much money because it will make people happy".   That isn't how the world works...that isn't how productivity works....that isn't how any of this works. 

 

[1ivay1]

1 minute ago, Chappie1975 said:

Did DE in any way shape or form make you spend even 1 bolívar to play their game?   Furthermore, should follow on movies, like say the avengers, make their next movie free to see because they "made so much money"?   The business of business is business.   This means, at the end of the day, if you own a business you want to make money and maximize your revenue/profit.  The question then becomes is do you want your business model to be sustainable?   But no rational person is gonna say "hey folks, lets stop making as much money because it will make people happy".   That isn't how the world works...that isn't how productivity works....that isn't how any of this works. 

 

Nonsensical argument that doesn't address anything, or even make sense.. 

The idea that being F2P means rewards for playing the game need to be balanced around buying platinum is antithetical to "Ninja's play for free". If you're going to reply with something similar to what you posted above, don't bother, I won't reply. 

The F2P model is attractive because it's fair, but that is slowly changing.. It took outrage from the players for them to make the Profit Taker actually worth doing. The game has evolved, if DE refuses to evolve then the game will die, this isn't 2014, the game isn't in beta, it's time for them to see this game as a fully fledged title, not a project.. 

[fartloud]

Completely agree with OP. Some say people just want more power, sure we do. The most important thing is working towards something. Gaining resources for three weapons... thats laughable. You guys probably also considered umbral mods as "content".

You only have to look to the bosses of another open area in the game. Arcanes might need some rebalance, but they give options. The fights arent super mandatory either. You either collect sets for yourself, for selling or dont do the bosses at all and just buy them from other players.

Ask yourself this - what sort of trading does profit taker promote? 

How many times do players actually want to kill the profit taker?

Is that number limited?

Now compare all that about eidolons. 

This isnt rocket science.

[Anthraxicus]

On 2019-01-17 at 9:27 AM, Momaw said:

Two issues.1.) DE has stated that they are not fans of players spending literally hours in the same mission doing the same gameplay over and and over. 

It is not their call to make. This would be equivalent of Blizzard making item sets with set bonuses increasingly more powerful (and they do) and not be a fan of having their players maximing builds to push as far as they can into Greater Rifts.
If they are not a fan of that, then they should rework how enemies scale, so you don't have to spend two hours just to start having a little bit of challenge. Kinda like you don't have to go through 124 zones to reach GR125+ in DIII.

The way the game is set up right now is for people to do 5 waves in Defense or 5 minutes in Survival (where a single cast of Polarize is enough to wipe out the entire map) then leave, which happens way to often, for some garbage Redirection or Vitality at the end. So much fun.

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-01-17 at 2:45 AM, Makunogo said:

but that example ignores the fact that, the older players are still going to be ranking up those new items that everyone else is getting. thus making the grind the same.

also like to point out that ranking items up is hardly time consuming. (2 waves of ESO gets it done now apparently)

 its part of the games progression.

also the older players have gear that is also exclusive so they may have up to 620 - per the example which btw i logged on and its under 500 with everything (including frames),

i'm currently at 493, while i think some of the players who been around longer then me are prob at 497-515 or something. 

in which case no matter how much weapons comes out. an older player will always have more items to level which directly indicates they have spent more time ranking up. as they literally have had more things to level.

 

maybe ill just use Math in case you still are not getting it.

older player has 300 weapons and 30 frames.  - lets say that takes 200 hours .

New items come out  300 more weapons and 30 frames. thats an other 200 hours .

 lets say a new player comes in today, 

they have 600 weapons and 60 frames, thier grind time will be 400 hours. 

but wait. 

there was 10 exclusive items the older player had that the newer player cant get. 

so the newer player max items is actually 390. 

thier grind will be less then the total 400 hours. as they have 10 less items to level

then also take into account that ranking things up is significantly faster now via adaro/ESO/SO. 

so that 400 hour grind will probably be cut even by lets say 25% which makes it 300 hour grind.

 rounded up cus lazy

irrefutably a newer player has a shorter grind then we do. the time spent is clearly shorter for the newer player. heck even focus is significantly quicker then it was before by a huge margin.

 

I get your logic. I just think it is correct.

Let's look at your ESO example. Do you think a newcomer is going to know to do that, much less be able to?

When the devs add five new weapons, a vet thinks "cool, I have zero other weapons left to earn, this will take no time at all." Meanwhile a newcomer thinks "geeze, I still have 400 other weapons to earn, this is going to take forever"

THAT is why I feel your argument is massively flawed. Grind that the vets already did two years ago is something I very deliberately do NOT add to the total grind they have left to do. Because they DON'T have any grind left to do

Edited January 18, 2019 by TARINunit9

[DerGreif2]

On 2019-01-17 at 12:27 PM, Momaw said:

Players keep asking for more power and refuse to allow nerfs to any of the game-breaking stuff, and we're left with a game that is, in an overwhelming majority of cases, only as hard as you want it to be. So any concept of rewarding players for "trying hard" must include either harsh rebalances or new systems that don't permit you to use the lazy mode stuff that trivializes the game.  Arbitrations is an experiment in solving that, by offering high value rewards while preventing auto-nukes and permanent crowd control from working, but look at how many people hate it. 

Thank you. We need some changes to scaling damage/armor etc for warframes and enemies in the game. I would gladly take a few huge nerfs to weapons and frames and a change to the enemy scaling over just new stuff. Because it dosent matter. We will one shot everything in the game untill the point where we get killed with one hit. And both things are just boring. We need some serous changes. Thats also a reason why we cant get better weapons and rewards because: we are already OP. For new players that not a problem we should stop thinking about NEW players and start about thinking about OLD players.

[Makunogo]

9 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

I get your logic. I just think it is correct.

Let's look at your ESO example. Do you think a newcomer is going to know to do that, much less be able to?

When the devs add five new weapons, a vet thinks "cool, I have zero other weapons left to earn, this will take no time at all." Meanwhile a newcomer thinks "geeze, I still have 400 other weapons to earn, this is going to take forever"

THAT is why I feel your argument is massively flawed. Grind that the vets already did two years ago is something I very deliberately do NOT add to the total grind they have left to do. Because they DON'T have any grind left to do

So/Eso is available very early and i tell anyone in my clan/alliance to level up through there. i always offer off the suggestion that lets people get the most done possible, eso trumps hydron in every way possible. 😛

, auto focus ( we know we get it every wave) RAD relics,(HUGE time saver), peculiar mods (plat) and vandal parts (exclusive to sanctuary). oh and did i mention generally squads that actually want to kill (which in turn makes u less likely to be in a squad of complete leeches)

for leveling frames i suggest they do normal SO/spy/adaro/actually play the game. basically anything to avoid the monotonous hydron.

we all had the big grind at one point and to ignore it simply well.. ignorance as you are literally saying "Hey your time spent grinding means nothing cus you are not new?" Like really?

 i dont think anyone has looked at their mastery and was like " OMG holy S**t 400+ weapons "

its always been " Oh i wanna try this next" " is this weapon good?" i personally have never seen anyone have any complains about the amount of options they have.

Edit: in fact the abundance of options make it excessively easier to increase MR, why? because they have more options on things to level. older players had to literally level everything.I think at some point they even had to wait for login weapons. I only recently hit MR26 leveling some new items cus i was too lazy to level all my archwings. by instead leveling new items. newer players will be able to pick and choose having an abundance of gear.

so vets they are already done everything. what more can they do. we add a Huge amount of new content. isn't that just a even bigger gap which you seem to be debating against? 

cant get our cake and eat it too.

the way its coming off is like adding more weapons is a problem? but your also saying. DE gives us more stuff, but then your saying. beginners have too much grind cus we're adding stuff.

new players will always have more to do, i dont think that needs to be pointed out.

however, what i was pointing out was that despite having more items. they wont be spending as long actually ranking them up due to our means of leveling as stated earlier. 300 hours is shorter then 400 no matter how one looks at it. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Makunogo

[TARINunit9]

@MakunogoDude, we had Draco. We had Vivaldi or however it's spelled. Don't act like we had to hike uphill to the school both ways when we were newbs, we had just as many broken "level a frame in five minutes" options as the newbs have today

I regularly coach new players too, friends on and the like. And they don't get past Saturn very often, they are usually out once they see they have over 50 frames and 500 weapons to grind through, both on the starchart and on the plains.

THAT is why I joined on this argument on the opposite side as you. I genuinely believe, with anecdotal evidence, that the grind for new players really is reaching a "too big" tipping point

[Makunogo]

17 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

@MakunogoDude, we had Draco. We had Vivaldi or however it's spelled. Don't act like we had to hike uphill to the school both ways when we were newbs, we had just as many broken "level a frame in five minutes" options as the newbs have today

I regularly coach new players too, friends on and the like. And they don't get past Saturn very often, they are usually out once they see they have over 50 frames and 500 weapons to grind through, both on the starchart and on the plains.

THAT is why I joined on this argument on the opposite side as you. I genuinely believe, with anecdotal evidence, that the grind for new players really is reaching a "too big" tipping point

where is the evidence you speaking of? 

also if you read my post in the manner you responding then you obviously read it wrong..

no where did i imply leveling was slow back then. i said there is faster means now.

if they are leaving because they have to use what the game offers i have 0 sympathy for them, thats laziness at its finest.

"oh my gosh DE wants me to use the weapons they are making in order to rank up my mastery which is based on using the gear they offer us. I Quit" 

this is almost getting comical.

the problem is only as big as they make it. even a small issue can be a huge pain in the neck if you have tunnel vision and focus on it.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Makunogo

[HugintheCrow]

On 2018-12-23 at 7:41 PM, DeMonkey said:

Every day we stray further from god the baseline that new players start at.

For every new bit of powerful content we get, that's another hurdle that must be gotten over to reach the top. We're already looking at months of investment and learning for new players to reliably reach levels equal to current "vets", and the more we give "vets" the longer it takes for new players to catch up.

No one wants to play a game where they're told "hey, you can get this really cool thing, but you'll need to spend the next year grinding your socks off to reach a level where you can then grind this".

World of Warcraft (and dozens of huge-grind mmos) exist though?

You go into a f2p game based on loot/item grinding and expect to have everything instantly?

A new player doesn't need to reach the level of "vets" is the thing, they only need to reach a level of a "not-a-beginner-anymore", then the level of "adept with the game" etc. and then they will be vets at some point. Telling people they need to have gear comparable to vets this instant is just plain wrong.

If a player starts out and says, "oh no, I have so much to grind I son't want to play anymore." It means Warframe is not a game for them, nice and simple. And that's ok, not everyone will enjoy warframe, it's normal.

 

Quote

For every new bit of powerful content we get, that's another hurdle that must be gotten over to reach the top.

looking at months of investment and learning

"Oh no, I get to have content to play, and there is no way to get bored yet, as I have a lot of new things to do."

"Oh, no I get to have fun for a long time in this game, with a lot of content for me to explore"

That's good, not bad.

I've recently picked up destiny 2. LOADS of stuff for me to do and acquire to get to endgame, and they are still adding more. I am EXCITED for it, not discouraged like you're trying to imply people would be. Again, if you tell a person, "you need to grind in warframe" and they quit, it measn they don't like this type of games, meaning it's on them not the game.

Edited January 19, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[DeMonkey]

19 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

World of Warcraft (and dozens of huge-grind mmos) exist though?

You go into a f2p game based on loot/item grinding and expect to have everything instantly?

A new player doesn't need to reach the level of "vets" is the thing, they only need to reach a level of a "not-a-beginner-anymore", then the level of "adept with the game" etc. and then they will be vets at some point. Telling people they need to have gear comparable to vets this instant is just plain wrong.

If a player starts out and says, "oh no, I have so much to grind I son't want to play anymore." It means Warframe is not a game for them, nice and simple. And that's ok, not everyone will enjoy warframe, it's normal.

 

"Oh no, I get to have content to play, and there is no way to get bored yet, as I have a lot of new things to do."

"Oh, no I get to have fun for a long time in this game, with a lot of content for me to explore"

That's good, not bad.

I've recently picked up destiny 2. LOADS of stuff for me to do and acquire to get to endgame, and they are still adding more. I am EXCITED for it, not discouraged like you're trying to imply people would be. Again, if you tell a person, "you need to grind in warframe" and they quit, it measn they don't like this type of games, meaning it's on them not the game.

Wow, what a well thought out post, shame it's a strawman... Guess that means it wasn't all that well thought. Did you even read my post? I really think you should go back and re-read the posts leading to my response.

You seem to have a problem with me, want to PM me and clear the air? Might save some embarrassment.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 2018-12-23 at 1:41 PM, DeMonkey said:

Every day we stray further from god the baseline that new players start at.

For every new bit of powerful content we get, that's another hurdle that must be gotten over to reach the top. We're already looking at months of investment and learning for new players to reliably reach levels equal to current "vets", and the more we give "vets" the longer it takes for new players to catch up.

No one wants to play a game where they're told "hey, you can get this really cool thing, but you'll need to spend the next year grinding your socks off to reach a level where you can then grind this".

This kinda insinuates that the content leading up to the upper echelon of Warframe is insignificant, which it isn't.

There's nothing wrong with allowing a structure in which new players progress over time. There's nothing wrong with new players having to invest a lot of time to reach the top. Its not hard nor is it that long of a grind especially now where Warframe sits. 

A new player is in a constant loop of goal setting. That should be a major appeal to players. Its not detrimental to their experience to not be able to achieve "really cool thing" quickly.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This kinda insinuates that the content leading up to the upper echelon of Warframe is insignificant, which it isn't.

There's nothing wrong with allowing a structure in which new players progress over time. There's nothing wrong with new players having to invest a lot of time to reach the top. Its not hard nor is it that long of a grind especially now where Warframe sits. 

A new player is in a constant loop of goal setting. That should be a major appeal to players. Its not detrimental to their experience to not be able to achieve "really cool thing" quickly.

Yeah... not the point either I'm afraid.

OP wants more power for the sake of more power. If new content then gets released for us with that power it's inaccessible to many. The more powerful we are, the more it's inaccessible. Not inherently a bad thing.

As mentioned however, it can be discouraging. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying "boohoo grind is discouraging".

I'm saying that we're already seeing this, YouTube's paid to play the game up to Fortuna and sucking because the content is actually out of their league, they made the game look un-fun imo. Content that is inaccessible to new players cannot be advertised well to new players, and cannot easily bring in new players. This is a bad thing.

The more powerful we get at the high end, the more this problem is exacerbated, which isn't really healthy for the game. Therefore more power for the sake of more power is largely detrimental. Re-read the OP's posts, that's all they want. Rewards for powerful players should be more power. As a model, that's not really sustainable.

[HugintheCrow]

38 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Wow, what a well thought out post, shame it's a strawman... Guess that means it wasn't all that well thought. Did you even read my post? I really think you should go back and re-read the posts leading to my response.

You seem to have a problem with me, want to PM me and clear the air? Might save some embarrassment.

Seems to me you have a problem with me? No need for this much passive-aggressiveness.

I'm not talking to posts above yours, I'm talking to yours. No need for me to address those. I'm not trying to argue whether op wants this or that, I'm trying to argue your point of content being discouraging, that's it. Calm down, and re-read my post.

[EvilDarknessAlien]

You win anasa ayatan. end.

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, HugintheCrow said:

Seems to me you have a problem with me?

Not at all, but I've seen all of your responses to me, many of which curiously don't exist a few hours later.

Petty is the word I'd use to describe them.

3 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

No need for me to address those.

Besides context? You're right, context isn't important at all. /s

Not like that means you're quoting me out of context, by your own admission even.

4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

I'm trying to argue your point of content being discouraging

There's nothing to argue, if DE were advertising Orb Heists it would likely be discouraging to new players. They have to spend a minimum of at least a month of Fortuna grinding to access them, not including time taken to actually reach Fortuna and reliably complete it's content, also not including standing purchases. Sure, one month isn't such a big problem, but how long before it's two months for new content? Three? Endgame? Oh that only requires 2 years of solid farming to reach, no big deal. But then we get more power, and suddenly that's no longer endgame anymore. Endgame is now 2 years and 1 month away.

It irrefutably reaches a point of being discouraging, where new content can't be advertised to and thus bring in new players, where it's actually detrimental to the business model. 

Read the posts.

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Not at all, but I've seen all of your responses to me, many of which curiously don't exist a few hours later.

Petty is the word I'd use to describe them.

I remember one, which admitedly was a bit too harsh of a joke.

I'm not known to hold back in words, generally.

2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Besides context? You're right, context isn't important at all. /s

Not like that means you're quoting me out of context, by your own admission even.

Again, the issue I was trying to talk about (since I find the main point of the OP pointless power mongering, just like you do) is completely detached from that "context".

3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

There's nothing to argue, if DE were advertising Orb Heists it would likely be discouraging to new players. They have to spend a minimum of at least a month of Fortuna grinding to access them, not including time taken to actually reach Fortuna and reliably complete it's content, also not including standing purchases. Sure, one month isn't such a big problem, but how long before it's two months for new content? Three? Endgame? Oh that only requires 2 years of solid farming to reach, no big deal. But then we get more power, and suddenly that's no longer endgame anymore. Endgame is now 2 years and 1 month away.

It irrefutably reaches a point of being discouraging, where new content can't be advertised to and thus bring in new players, where it's actually detrimental to the business model. 

While DE's policy to make everything as grindy as possible is obviously discouraging, (yes it is, I agree), I don't agree that you can't advertise endgame as a long-term goal. It is anecdotal, but I personally like the idea of having a far-away goal.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Again, the issue I was trying to talk about (since I find the main point of the OP pointless power mongering, just like you do) is completely detached from that "context".

I disagree, I believe they're directly linked.

4 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

It is anecdotal, but I personally like the idea of having a far-away goal.

As do I, but if the most powerful players continue to accrue more and more power (which is what OP wants, hence why it's directly tied), then that far away goal gets further and further away and more and more discouraging.

And that is not sustainable.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

8 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

While DE's policy to make everything as grindy as possible is obviously discouraging, (yes it is, I agree), I don't agree that you can't advertise endgame as a long-term goal. It is anecdotal, but I personally like the idea of having a far-away goal.

Would you really start playing a game if you saw an ad on YouTube that showed an epic, awesome, totally amazing thing, and then it said "disclaimer: endgame content only accessible after hundreds of hours of dedication to the game"? The real ads wouldn't have that, of course. At least my made up ad gives you the courtesy of saying "This isn't something you can play any time soon". An ad should show you what you're getting. Endgame is not what new players are getting.

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

As do I, but if the most powerful players continue to accrue more and more power (which is what OP wants, hence why it's directly tied), then that far away goal gets further and further away and more and more discouraging.

And that is not sustainable.

That is something I agree on. Definitely.

In my opinion more content should NOT mean more power, not anymore anyway.

What I would want is more ways to achieve similar goals e.g. Instead of arcanes being available only from eidolons, vreate another place where you can obtain those rewards, letting people choose where to grind.

What do you think about that idea?

[HugintheCrow]

3 minutes ago, CoolDudeMcCool said:

Would you really start playing a game if you saw an ad on YouTube that showed an epic, awesome, totally amazing thing, and then it said "disclaimer: endgame content only accessible after hundreds of hours of dedication to the game"? The real ads wouldn't have that, of course. At least my made up ad gives you the courtesy of saying "This isn't something you can play any time soon". An ad should show you what you're getting. Endgame is not what new players are getting.

I generally like games that give me a long term goal. So, yeah probably.

But if you put it this way, I can understand how a lot of people wouldn't like that.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

1 minute ago, HugintheCrow said:

I generally like games that give me a long term goal. So, yeah probably.

But if you put it this way, I can understand how a lot of people wouldn't like that.

Oh, games providing a long term goal is more than fine. I'm just saying that an ad should show you what you're actually getting into, not the content that comes at the end of the game. Although showing both would work, it's just that endgame alone isn't going to bring in as many players as new content that they actually can play in a quick timeframe would.