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Fights that dont need damage buffs


S.Dust
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I feel like we are over due for a boss that isnt just bring chroma or some kind of damage buff and win. the squad for the orbs is the same as the squad for the eidolons with maybe someone to deal with side enemies. Most frames feel like they serve no purpose they exist because they can. I want to see a boss fight were loki, nyx, vauban, and wukong are the best choices or something like actually.

Edited by S.Dust
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Problem with PvE games, not just Warframe, is no matter what developers do to balance  or change the game, players will ALWAYS find the quickest most effective way to eat away that change.

PvE games can quickly devolve into "If it's not the best, its trash." which is a mindset a lot of Warframe players seem to have regarding the frames.

This is just as much a player made problem as it is a developer.

Edited by Dragonfarce
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19 minutes ago, Dragonfarce said:

PvE games can quickly devolve into "If it's not the best, its trash." which is a mindset a lot of Warframe players seem to have regarding the fram

My goodness, dude, this is so damn true. Its not "Is this fun?", "Is this viable?". Its always "This is not powerfull enough compared to X, so dont bother using it." to some people.

Granted, when I want to actually make a "POWAAAHHH!!" Build, I turn to those people for advice, but if you are looking for something for fun, save your time typing.

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38 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

My goodness, dude, this is so damn true. Its not "Is this fun?", "Is this viable?". Its always "This is not powerfull enough compared to X, so dont bother using it." to some people.

You mean all people?

 

Legit go into region chat or really anywhere and make the statement "volt is as useful as volt prime".

You'll have people literally tearing and climbing over each other just to tell you that the energy max difference is a "massive deciding factor" and it will increase your survivability with quick thinking by a huge amount for level 100 content. Where in reality, level 100 content will one-hit you primed or not, and in reality there is no difference in why you even picked volt or his prime variant to begin with; you play volt for his speed buffs or his cc, none of which are different between the two. And this can be done with any frame and their primed variant.

Edited by Obviousclone
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Find a way to design a boss fight that doesn't require a massive health pool yet is still somehow engaging.

Players have already complained about Nullifiers, ability immunity, damage caps, and armor amongst other mechanics that could be used other than more health so what else is left to do? Besides any other mechanic that could be used would likely be bypassed due to said damage buff frames.

Also the Orbs and Eidolons* don't require damage buffs, they are all in-fact completable without such frames. They simply take longer to do.

 

*Yes the time limit on Eidolons makes them far more difficult to do without damage buffing but still not impossible.

Edited by trst
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14 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

You mean all people?

 

Legit go into region chat or really anywhere and make the statement "volt is as useful as volt prime".

You'll have people literally tearing and climbing over each other just to tell you that the energy max difference is a "massive deciding factor" and it will increase your survivability with quick thinking by a huge amount for level 100 content. Where in reality, level 100 content will one-hit you primed or not, and in reality there is no difference in why you even picked volt or his prime variant to begin with; you play volt for his speed buffs or his cc, none of which are different between the two. And this can be done with any frame and their primed variant.

False equivalency. No ones arguing if prime variants are superior to their non-prime versions, it's literally advertised to be that way.

What's being talked about here is how say you wanna play Nyx. You like Nyx, you like her abilities, you like her skillset, and you like her theme, she works just fine.

You'll usually be met with; "Don't play nyx, shes TRASH because Loki is better."

See the problem here? It's never a question of whats fun, or is this viable, it's always whats the best, and whats not the best is trash garbage. That's a bulk of the warframe community.

Edited by Dragonfarce
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2 hours ago, Obviousclone said:

You mean all people?

No, cant generalize. If I use something like "most", "all", "everyone", or anything that deems that its a "majority", I will get tracked down by those telling that "I dont  speak for them", "proof on that" or such things.

"Some" is more ambiguous. Low to zero chance of causing triggers.

Edit:

Case and point: The post above me quoting you for that very thing.

Edited by Kaotyke
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3 hours ago, trst said:

Also the Orbs and Eidolons* don't require damage buffs, they are all in-fact completable without such frames. They simply take longer to do.

The problem with Eidolons is their stupidly high damage reduction, that forces players to use snipers with their huge crit damage that can be combo'd.

Chroma, as you said, only speeds up the process of killing him, but the fact that solid 95% of weapons cannot be used against Eidolon is kinda bad design.

How would i fix it?

Reduce eidolons damage reduction and dd some kind of gimmick that reduces crit damage (or just removes crit chance, unless Eidolon is hit in head). That way snipers will lose their "eidolon hunting weapon" throne, but so many more guns will become viable

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4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Dang it!  Another fine Tenno who's also on to something.  Style Above All!!!   

#AlataLife

That being said, I feel I've taken too long of a break from the forums if the majority of responses claim the meta is the only answer. 

Making a team if like minded players is always the first place to start, followed by posting tutorials on how a non meta set up performs.  

No one is forcing you to follow the meta, 30+ million players and you think you're the only ones who want to go nonstandard?

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Just now, (PS4)watt4hem said:

Alata and pneuma made me build a second mag for fashion.

On topic, sometimes it's amusing though. I remember bringing nyx, loki, and mag into the first razorback event where people mostly go rhino & chroma.

I take a max duration + range Fracturing Crush Mag into Infested missions and use toxic or gas melee with healing return. 

I could hear the meta players screaming lol 

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10 hours ago, Dragonfarce said:

Problem with PvE games, not just Warframe, is no matter what developers do to balance  or change the game, players will ALWAYS find the quickest most effective way to eat away that change.

PvE games can quickly devolve into "If it's not the best, its trash." which is a mindset a lot of Warframe players seem to have regarding the frames.

This is just as much a player made problem as it is a developer.

Truth For the Mother Mucking (I can do it too DE!!!) Win!!!

Ironically all the fights where dps isn't a factor (Kela de Thym) and that use mechanics (invulnerable phases) enrage players. Lol.

"Give us challenge!" (DE adds boss that has mechanics.

"Stop giving us invulnerable phases, & cheap tactics!!" (DE adds bullet sponge bosses to soak up the players frightening power)

"Stop giving us bullet sponges! We want a challenge." (DE adds bosses that require specific gear to defeat)

"Stop forcing us to grind & work for the ability to defeat the boss." (DE gives up and returns to regular bosses.)

"Game is too easy! Give us a challenge DE. So much Content Drought!!!"

(DE takes vacation & off camera has a secret meeting where it decides to unleash its hatred for players by committing to making more Syndicates that have standing gains like The Vent kids. *insert evil DE_Steve & DE_Rebecca laugh*)

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13 hours ago, S.Dust said:

I feel like we are over due for a boss that isnt just bring chroma or some kind of damage buff and win. the squad for the orbs is the same as the squad for the eidolons with maybe someone to deal with side enemies. Most frames feel like they serve no purpose they exist because they can. I want to see a boss fight were loki, nyx, vauban, and wukong are the best choices or something like actually.

 

There used to be these missons, they were the raids. Discontinued for some reason long ago. (They were mainly puzzles and teamwork, damage wouldnt help you much there)

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28 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I see you, and raise you one......

Daikyu4Life!!!!

Believe it or not...when I was just getting restarted on Warframe I remember you recommending to me on these forums to get a Daikyu for Star Chart progression.

Some of the best advice I've ever been given. That bow was a godsend.

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Believe it or not...when I was just getting restarted on Warframe I remember you recommending to me on these forums to get a Daikyu for Star Chart progression.

Some of the best advice I've ever been given. That bow was a godsend.

Now you've done it, Darks head isn't gonna fit through the door now  

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13 hours ago, Dragonfarce said:

This is just as much a player made problem as it is a developer.

Wrong and has nothing to do with OP's desire to see a boss fight design that promotes something other than huge damage buffs.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward good movement.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward good timing.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward precise and accurate aim.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward timely hacking.

These are all gameplay designs that players have no direct control over. The lack of these mechanics is the fault of the developer. I know for a fact DE can do better because we used to have Trials. LoR's last fight and the door unlocking puzzle were both great examples of diverse mechanics that could challenge players. LoR was interesting and required teamwork and communication in real time.

Presently, the Eidolon fight and the Profit Taker fight are the only end-game challenges. Neither requires teamwork and communication in real time. In both fights, people can get by nearly wordlessly -- all challenge is reduced by preparation before the fight. This is an entirely cool and fair design for these fights, but there no other challenges that further diversify the skills tested of players.

The Eidolon fight rewards having the right team composition the most. Everything else is just knowing what to do when. All challenge is essentially in pre-fight planning and organization. It's a cool, simple design.

The Profit Taker fight is actually a great step in the right direction because it demands attention from the player both before and during the fight. Pre-fight streamlining takes the form of preparing a kit with a diverse set of damage types. In-fight streamlining takes the form of moving to the pylons the Orb fires to destroy them the moment they land, choosing the right damage type and weapon at the right time to counter the shield, and clearing out the trash mobs. It still rewards appropriate team composition but the number of viable frames is much greater since there are a number of things going on during the fight.

Future boss fights could incorporate telegraphed frame-scaled damage that can obliterate inattentive players (e.g. a missile with an indicated target location that deals 50% of the player's max HP they are at the blast point), phases that involve hacking (e.g. deal enough damage to stun the boss, then run up to it and hack it), bosses that contain labyrinths within itself which the player needs to enter and race to the end (requiring complex parkour to finish in time), etc. In these designs, min-maxed damage is not most important factor.

I for one would love to see more missions that are interesting. I would also love having Trials back TwT (press F to pay respect)

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4 hours ago, MagPrime said:

I take a max duration + range Fracturing Crush Mag into Infested missions and use toxic or gas melee with healing return. 

I could hear the meta players screaming lol 

I use that very combo all the time.  At mission end I'll have most damage dealt, most enemies killed, highest accuracy, and a few rezes.  Not bad for Tenno using a controller on PC with Mag Prime and Ivara.  Just ignore that both Mag and Ivara can easily steal most damage dealt stat.  😄 

I get a kick out of walking between enemy waves knowing they can't do the same. 

Who needs meta when you can have Style instead.  Mwuhahahahahahaha

44 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Lol! I'm so sorry!

Don't let MP fool you.  She likes big heads.  😎 

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3 hours ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Wrong and has nothing to do with OP's desire to see a boss fight design that promotes something other than huge damage buffs.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward good movement.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward good timing.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward precise and accurate aim.

There are currently zero end-game challenges that reward timely hacking.

These are all gameplay designs that players have no direct control over. The lack of these mechanics is the fault of the developer. I know for a fact DE can do better because we used to have Trials. LoR's last fight and the door unlocking puzzle were both great examples of diverse mechanics that could challenge players. LoR was interesting and required teamwork and communication in real time.

Presently, the Eidolon fight and the Profit Taker fight are the only end-game challenges. Neither requires teamwork and communication in real time. In both fights, people can get by nearly wordlessly -- all challenge is reduced by preparation before the fight. This is an entirely cool and fair design for these fights, but there no other challenges that further diversify the skills tested of players.

The Eidolon fight rewards having the right team composition the most. Everything else is just knowing what to do when. All challenge is essentially in pre-fight planning and organization. It's a cool, simple design.

The Profit Taker fight is actually a great step in the right direction because it demands attention from the player both before and during the fight. Pre-fight streamlining takes the form of preparing a kit with a diverse set of damage types. In-fight streamlining takes the form of moving to the pylons the Orb fires to destroy them the moment they land, choosing the right damage type and weapon at the right time to counter the shield, and clearing out the trash mobs. It still rewards appropriate team composition but the number of viable frames is much greater since there are a number of things going on during the fight.

Future boss fights could incorporate telegraphed frame-scaled damage that can obliterate inattentive players (e.g. a missile with an indicated target location that deals 50% of the player's max HP they are at the blast point), phases that involve hacking (e.g. deal enough damage to stun the boss, then run up to it and hack it), bosses that contain labyrinths within itself which the player needs to enter and race to the end (requiring complex parkour to finish in time), etc. In these designs, min-maxed damage is not most important factor.

I for one would love to see more missions that are interesting. I would also love having Trials back TwT (press F to pay respect)

What endgame?

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