Fights that dont need damage buffs

[Valgaarv]

Il y a 22 heures, S.Dust a dit :

I feel like we are over due for a boss that isnt just bring chroma or some kind of damage buff and win. the squad for the orbs is the same as the squad for the eidolons with maybe someone to deal with side enemies. Most frames feel like they serve no purpose they exist because they can. I want to see a boss fight were loki, nyx, vauban, and wukong are the best choices or something like actually.

First of all, having a damage buff will be always a must in a boss figth, no matter of wich game are we talking.

Second, the number of mobs needed to turn cc warframes a must have on team composition has to be like 3 times the mobs we already have in the profit taker figth or they should have a sht ton of health so cc would be a better option than just killing them, but with the current crys about "why I can't kill those 10 mobs in 1 shot with my Lato?? DE nerf!!!" it is very unlikely to see a boss figth with even more mobs.

Third, nyx and loki have a purpose, they are incredible for long endrurance runs becuase their cc skills, the problem is that you need to stay over 1 hour to start feeling difficulty (thats why boringtrations should start at lv 100) wukong and vauban sucks because of their poor skills but that's another problem

[Daemonjax]

17 hours ago, deothor said:

Reduce eidolons damage reduction and dd some kind of gimmick that reduces crit damage (or just removes crit chance, unless Eidolon is hit in head). That way snipers will lose their "eidolon hunting weapon" throne, but so many more guns will become viable

You can already reduce their damage reduction by using a sarpa with shatting impact or just using good ol corrosive projection.  I prefer sarpa.

But if you removed the ability to crit eidolons... I dunno.  Yeah, you'd make sniper rifles completely trash tier weapons except for spy missions, but a lot of weapons that are currently slightly more than just viable would also be complete trash against eidolons -- off the top of my head: opticor, valkyr's talons, sancti castanas.  So, you'd have to reduce their health, too.  What would we all be using instead, then?

I'm totally fine with sniper rifles having a place where they shine.

If they wanted more frames to be more than merely viable, DE would need to open up the eidolons to at least some warframe ability affects.  I don't think it's going to happen.  They could also make melee more viable by changing the eidolon's models so that we could easilly jump and perch ourselves near the synovias -- another thing I don't see happening, although melee 3.0 may fix that with air combos.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Daemonjax

[deothor]

8 minutes ago, Daemonjax said:

You can already reduce their damage reduction by using a sarpa with shatting impact or just using good ol corrosive projection.  I prefer sarpa.

This reduces their armor, yeah, but eidolons have some kind of flat 'invisible' damage reduction on top of that. People mitigate it by using snipers as they allow for building up crit damage with snipe combos.

I don't want to remove crit from eidolons alltogether. Either nerf crit damage (so snipers won't be go-to weapons), while reducing their "invisible" damage reduction, OR remove body-crit chance but allow for headshot or limb-crits.

Edited December 24, 2018 by deothor

[Urlan]

As I recall, Profit Taker is now immune to all forms of Armor Reduction so the Shattering Impact and Dash uses on Eidolons wouldn't be a consideration there. Instead it is all personal pumps and crowd control as some have stated.

[Daemonjax]

23 minutes ago, deothor said:

... eidolons have some kind of flat 'invisible' damage reduction on top of that.

Yeah, I noticed early on that I seem to only do around 10% - 15% of the damage I expected to be doing, all things considered.  I just figured I was imagining things or it was a UI bug... is this unchangeable damage reduction confirmed to be a thing?  Is it truly flat and so affects pellet weapons more than single shot weapons?

Edited December 24, 2018 by Daemonjax

[clxrffdman]

You dont "need" a damage buff. It just speeds things up, as damage buffs should.

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2018-12-23 at 11:02 AM, S.Dust said:

I feel like we are over due for a boss that isnt just bring chroma or some kind of damage buff and win. the squad for the orbs is the same as the squad for the eidolons with maybe someone to deal with side enemies. Most frames feel like they serve no purpose they exist because they can. I want to see a boss fight were loki, nyx, vauban, and wukong are the best choices or something like actually.

I would love to see a faction like that tbh.

One with high amounts of reflect or somesuch that requires some measure of finesse to KO.

...It could even be Tenno NPCs attached to opposing syndicates. 

Alternately, let DE change the script some and make the disparity between build score and enemy level act as a modifier to item drop chance.

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, Daemonjax said:

Yeah, I noticed early on that I seem to only do around 10% - 15% of the damage I expected to be doing, all things considered.  I just figured I was imagining things or it was a UI bug... is this unchangeable damage reduction confirmed to be a thing?  Is it truly flat and so affects pellet weapons more than single shot weapons?

I think you are right, perhaps 70% or some damage resist natively?

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2018‎-‎12‎-‎24 at 2:52 AM, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Truth For the Mother Mucking (I can do it too DE!!!) Win!!!

Ironically all the fights where dps isn't a factor (Kela de Thym) and that use mechanics (invulnerable phases) enrage players. Lol.

"Give us challenge!" (DE adds boss that has mechanics.

"Stop giving us invulnerable phases, & cheap tactics!!" (DE adds bullet sponge bosses to soak up the players frightening power)

"Stop giving us bullet sponges! We want a challenge." (DE adds bosses that require specific gear to defeat)

"Stop forcing us to grind & work for the ability to defeat the boss." (DE gives up and returns to regular bosses.)

"Game is too easy! Give us a challenge DE. So much Content Drought!!!"

(DE takes vacation & off camera has a secret meeting where it decides to unleash its hatred for players by committing to making more Syndicates that have standing gains like The Vent kids. *insert evil DE_Steve & DE_Rebecca laugh*)

I can't believe that I missed this fantastic post the first time.  You might be joking about the secret meeting, but  I believe they really did just that.  Including the laugh.  LOL 

Edited December 27, 2018 by DatDarkOne
correcting autocorrect

[(PSN)Crixus044]

On 2018-12-23 at 4:49 PM, Dragonfarce said:

Problem with PvE games, not just Warframe, is no matter what developers do to balance  or change the game, players will ALWAYS find the quickest most effective way to eat away that change.

PvE games can quickly devolve into "If it's not the best, its trash." which is a mindset a lot of Warframe players seem to have regarding the frames.

This is just as much a player made problem as it is a developer.

Well said, which is funny, because a lot of times, the meta isn't even the best. It is just good enough to beat the boss as fast as possible, who is way underpowered EHp wise to keep up.

There will always be a meta. Unless every weapon and warframe has the same exact stats with exact same mods, something will be better than something else, thus a meta is formed.

@S.Dust you must understand that when it comes to boss killing, damage buffs are always gonna win out. The point is to kill. Damage kills. More damage equals more killing. Frames like vauban and nyx are all about CC, which is protection to survive terrific in high level horde settings, which we unfortunately don't have in boss fights. Usually we have lower level trash, which aoe killings are enough to take care of.

Back in 2015, raids were added specifically for this, because even though we were a lot weaker back then, we had the same problems of today, were rhino stomp would nuke the world because the highest level enemies you'd see in game were in the 30s or 40s. No sorties, no nothing. No point in CC if you could just kill. DE's answer, trials. Level 80 enemies gave us a stronger threat that required CC and teamwork to beat. Not a simple "bring saryn and win" deal. Meta teams were usually made up of trinity, loki, nova/volt, and rhino/vauban/nyx/frost. As you see, very little damage buffs. Unfortunately, the issue became that it was no longer challenging as CC was king, so enemies became fodder, and unfortunately, the bosses were weak as hell. There was no need to kill anything in the mission, which also became a large problem. If we had a raid that combined the complexity and high level nature of the old trials, while combining the emphasis on killing of the new monster hunts, we'd all get everything we need.

Edited December 26, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Nocontents]

Nobody wants to waste time when farming. It's just how it is. If you want to waste time, play with your friend, I guess...

[OvisCaedo]

On 2018-12-24 at 12:11 PM, Daemonjax said:

Yeah, I noticed early on that I seem to only do around 10% - 15% of the damage I expected to be doing, all things considered.  I just figured I was imagining things or it was a UI bug... is this unchangeable damage reduction confirmed to be a thing?  Is it truly flat and so affects pellet weapons more than single shot weapons?

Lephantis has been in the game for years and I'm pretty sure nobody still has any idea how HIS damage reduction works, and DE will never explain it. I would be surprised if there is actually any solid info on exactly how the eidolon's supposed damage reduction works. It might not even actually be any form of DR that inherently favors sniper rifles, it's just that the fight itself and the inclination people have towards trying to kill as many of them as possible in 50 minutes means that the most favored weapon will probably be one that only takes one shot to instantly complete a phase. And, hey, guess what weapon type is best suited to doing a lot of damage to one thing instantly in a single shot?

Though I did once see a very interesting video and spreadsheet of someone figuring out how the Juggernaut's damage reduction works, and it was... uh... it was a really weird mess that was, if I remember right, set up to try and hard cap your potential DPS against the shell at only 200.

Edited December 27, 2018 by OvisCaedo

[Legion-Shields]

On 2018-12-23 at 7:47 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The “hit the glowing weakpoints” is a tried and true method of boss fight.

And boring. 

[Peter]

On 2018-12-23 at 7:49 PM, Dragonfarce said:

Problem with PvE games, not just Warframe, is no matter what developers do to balance  or change the game, players will ALWAYS find the quickest most effective way to eat away that change.

PvE games can quickly devolve into "If it's not the best, its trash." which is a mindset a lot of Warframe players seem to have regarding the frames.

This is just as much a player made problem as it is a developer.

And if we can't find a way to do quickly then no one will play that S#&$.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Legion-Shields said:

And boring. 

When done wrong.

[Legion-Shields]

20 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

When done wrong.

When being forced to do them at all. It’s a shallow gimmick, like most “mmo boss fight” mechanics are.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Legion-Shields

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

33 minutes ago, Legion-Shields said:

When being forced to do them at all. It’s a shallow gimmick, like most “mmo boss fight” mechanics are.

My personal favorite is the "DPS check or Insta-wipe" mechanic.

Just screams innovation from MMO devs.