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Stronger enemies should be harder to affect with frame powers or certain aspects of them


_Vortus_
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Stronger units in the game already do more damage, have more EHP, better armor etc.   But, I always pictured that the heavier a unit got in the game, as well as the higher level the unit became, they would become fiercer.   Physically stronger.  Mentally more capable.   This would give them the a chance to resist some Warframe abilities or parts of some abilities.  Be it through mental fortitude, shear physical strength, or just its driving rage.  This is already represented in the game by the decreasing damage powers do as the enemies level higher.   But, this is lacking in the area of controlling abilities as well as abilities that do both damage and control.  This will not affect the damage part of any ability, as that is already accounted for in the game.  Just the part that attempts to control the enemy in some manner

Powers like Banshee's Sound Quake.  The enemies would continue to take damage as normal, but have a chance to resist the Stumble effect.  Frosts Avalanche.   The enemies would be damaged as normal, but would have a chance to resist being frozen.   Nova's Molecular Prime.   The enemies would take additional damage like normal, but would have a chance of not being affected by the Slow effect.  Nyx's Chaos.   The enemy would have a chance at resisting the power and would only target Tenno if they passed the roll.   Just some examples, many many others could be made.

This is the formula I came up with.   Math guru's who think this might be a decent idea can hopefully do better.  

Your Warframes level, plus its Power Strength above 100 and up will be added.  So a level 30 Warframe with a Strength of 100 would have a score of 30.   A level 30 Warframe with a Strength of 200 would have a score of 130.  

Enemies will have a base score, decided by the type of enemy.   Then the enemies level will be divided by 2 and added to the units base score. Giving the unit its total score.

Taking the enemies total score, and subtracting the Warframes score will yield the percentage of 100 that an enemy can resist the Warframe.   Any negative result means that the power affects the enemy automatically.   Any result over 50 is capped at 50.   So enemies can have no more than a 50% chance to resist the Warframes power, no matter the level or power strength.

[Enemy Base Score + (Enemies Level divided by 2)] - Warframe's Level + (Warframes Power Strength - 100) = X% out of 100%   Heh, I think I wrote that right..... 

  • Light Enemies get a base of between 1 and 9 points
  • Medium Enemies get a base of between 10 and 19 points
  • Heavy Enemies get a base of between 20 and 25 points.
  • Special and Eximus Enemies get a 5 point bonus

 

So for an example.

Level 30 Nyx casts Chaos with a Power Strength of 100.

Level 10 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 7.   Minus 30, means a negative score, affected automatically. 

Level 10 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 17.  Minus 30, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 10 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 27.  Minus 30, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 10 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 32.  Minus 30, means he has a 2% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 50 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 25, so his score is 27.   Minus 30, means a negative score, affected automatically. 

Level 50 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 25, so his score is 37.  Minus 30, means he has a 7% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 50 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 47.  Minus 30, means he has a 17% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 50 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 52.  Minus 30, means he has a 22% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 100 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, so his score is 52.   Minus 30, means he has a 22% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 100 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, so his score is 62.  Minus 30, means he has a 32% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 100 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, so his score is 72.  Minus 30, means he has a 42% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 100 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 77.  Minus 30, means he has a 47% chance of resisting the ability.

Level 200 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, so his score is 102.   Minus 30, is 72.  As its above the 50% cap, the percentage of 50% of resisting the ability is used.

Level 200 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, so his score is 112.  Minus 30, is 82.  As its above the 50% cap, the percentage of 50% of resisting the ability is used.

Level 200 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, so his score is 122.  Minus 30, is 92.  As its above the 50% cap, the percentage of 50% of resisting the ability is used.

Level 200 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 127.  Minus 30, is 95.  As its above the 50% cap, the percentage of 50% of resisting the ability is used.

Level 30 Nyx casts Chaos with a Power Strength of 200.

Level 10 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 7.   Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically. 

Level 10 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 17.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 10 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 27.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 10 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 32.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 50 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 25, so his score is 27.   Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically. 

Level 50 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 25, so his score is 37.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 50 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, so his score is 47.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 50 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 5, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 52.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 100 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, so his score is 52.   Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 100 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, so his score is 62.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 100 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, so his score is 72.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 100 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 50, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 77.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 200 Butcher - Base of 2, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, so his score is 102.   Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 200 Scorch - Base of 12, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, so his score is 112.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 200 Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, so his score is 122.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

Level 200 Eximus Heavy Gunner - Base of 22, level 10 divided by 2 is 100, plus 5 for being an Eximus, so his score is 127.  Minus 130, means a negative score, affected automatically.

 

Likely some spreadsheet savvy players could come up with better percentages.   Mine were pretty basic numbers to make the math easier on my brain.  Obviously there will be a tipping point between no chance and when an enemy starts to gain a chance based on the level of anticipated enemies and a Warframes strength.   But, this seems like a way to make the game a little more interesting without increasing damage, armor or other abilities. 

Edited by _Vortus_
Fixed some maths
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There is already a system in place to keep Warframe powers that deal damage in check. It is called scaling.

All mobs gain more and more health, shields and armor when they level up. Making damage dealing powers less and less efficient, this can already be seen in some frames such as Ember who due to how heat damage work and it is really crippled against high level foes.


So no, we do not need a automated system for damage dealing frame powers. Since that already exist.
Now we could argue that it is to much or to little in some cases, but that is not due to numbers for those powers being good or bad, that is due to the damage type and how poorly balanced they are.


Now if you were to have some sort of diminishing effect for Crowd control skills, that scale based on enemy level it could be a interesting concept, how you would balance it however is another thing.

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2 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

There is already a system in place to keep Warframe powers that deal damage in check. It is called scaling.

All mobs gain more and more health, shields and armor when they level up. Making damage dealing powers less and less efficient, this can already be seen in some frames such as Ember who due to how heat damage work and it is really crippled against high level foes.


So no, we do not need a automated system for damage dealing frame powers. Since that already exist.
Now we could argue that it is to much or to little in some cases, but that is not due to numbers for those powers being good or bad, that is due to the damage type and how poorly balanced they are.


Now if you were to have some sort of diminishing effect for Crowd control skills, that scale based on enemy level it could be a interesting concept, how you would balance it however is another thing.

 A diminishing effect on CC abilities was what my whole post was about.   Damage itself wouldn't be affected in any way.   Powers that did both damage and had CC abilities, Rhino's Stomp, Frosts Avalanche, on the CC part of the ability would be affects.   The damage aspects of the powers would remain unchanged.  Perhaps I was not clear...

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3 hours ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Sounds awful.  We already have to deal with blatantly broken armor scaling and now this is a suggestion... that's a big nope from me.  

Curious as to why?   This will not affect armor, health or damage in anyway.   It only affects the CC part of the effects of powers that do both damage and CC, as well as pure CC abilities.   And it wouldn't affect them for a vast majority of the player base until higher levels.   And those players should already know how to deal with it and be ready for the challenge.  I mean, it would take until level 100 enemies facing no strength added Warframes to come close to a 50% cap, and thats only the heavy and special unit types.   Not sure, but except for sorties and a couple special mission types, it takes quite a while to get to enemies of that level.  A bit of strength, or growing power and those enemy levels go up before they come close to the cap.  

To me it would make things a bit more interesting and enemies less of a joke.

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You may want to consider making an argument as to why this is needed. Diminishing the effect of Warframe abilities - CC or otherwise - has the knock-on effect of making Warframes which depend on their abilities for survival simply not viable. It also does nothing to address ally buffs. So you've successfully made Nyx unplayable at level 80, but you've done very little to affect Rhino. His Gore, his Iron Skin and his Roar are completely unaffected. While Stomp IS affected, that's a small price to pay. I just don't see the point.

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4 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

You may want to consider making an argument as to why this is needed. Diminishing the effect of Warframe abilities - CC or otherwise - has the knock-on effect of making Warframes which depend on their abilities for survival simply not viable. It also does nothing to address ally buffs. So you've successfully made Nyx unplayable at level 80, but you've done very little to affect Rhino. His Gore, his Iron Skin and his Roar are completely unaffected. While Stomp IS affected, that's a small price to pay. I just don't see the point.

 

3 hours ago, Atsia said:

Yeah I disagree with this. As Rook said, thirds basically screws over every frame that relies on CC with their abilities. Nyx, Loki, Vauban, Sleepquinox, Frost, etc. would be effectively useless at higher levels.

This is needed because against all factions except the Corpus, and them less and less as time goes on, CC powers are pretty much untouchable by enemies.   This idea gives that bit of excitement potential back.  Just as enemies become harder to kill the higher you go, so should they also become harder to control.  

To many Warframe players seem to think in absolutes.   The change would be percentage based and capped.  So an enemy has a chance to break free at 1%, to a maximum of 50%.   Numbers can always be up for discussion.   I just put those numbers out to start a discussion.  They could cap at 40%, or even 30%.     As for frames being useless, I disagree.   All the frames you mention have more than one power.   Those CC powers can also be recast if they fail.   But as it stands now, CC, kill, CC, kill with almost no threat.    Warframe needs some fear put back in the game.   Players would have to pay more attention. 

Just an example, Nyx pops a Chaos, inn the area there are bunch of Grineer.  Two heavy Gunners pass their roll and break free.  Nyx hits one with Mind Control, and the other with Bolts.   Quick hit of Absorb to knock them down, retreat to safety.   Or if every enemy passed thier roll, pop Absorb, knock them down, pop out, recast Chaos etc.    Chances of every enemy passing the roll every time is pretty small, and if it did happen.... better just quit for the day, the RNG gods hate you. 🙂   Any frame this would affect has options.

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I've been waiting to see something like this added to the game for years now. Everyone knows CC abilities are too OP, and as you say it's the only type of power that has no real counter, except for the few enemy units that straight up ignore it.

A feature like this would make enemies way more engaging, and it would take us a step closer to the challenging game that we want Warframe to be. Yes, away from the mindless grind it's become.

All I would add to your suggestion is to have the game immediately highlight the enemy or enemies that resisted the CC for a short duration (3 to 4 seconds) with an aura that is easily visible. That way players could quickly visualize and react to the problem enemy or enemies. And it would be more forgiving but at the same time more engaging and less frustrating for players, I think. For example, if I see an enemy from a horde turn a different color I'd know my CC didn't work and it's either time to run (depending on the enemy), focus on killing it quickly, or try my chances again with a recast of the CC ability.

The aura or new color of the resistant enemy could be a fixed color designated for this type of CC resistance specifically, or it could be the color of your warframe energy. The latter would make it easier to know it was your ability that failed and not another's, but would probably make the game too colorful.

The aura wouldn't trigger for enemies that are in some state of CC already, otherwise it could become confusing at times. You'd be focusing your attention on enemies that don't require it.

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7 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

This is needed because against all factions except the Corpus, and them less and less as time goes on, CC powers are pretty much untouchable by enemies.   This idea gives that bit of excitement potential back.  Just as enemies become harder to kill the higher you go, so should they also become harder to control.  

For one, "excitement potential" is debatable. The whole point of control powers is to be reliable. Once they become unreliable and less effective, the whole point to using them becomes moot. I personally don't find that argument very convincing, because once again it defaults to just stating that something "should" be the case.

Secondly, you can't really compare to powers to damage directly. Damage stacks with itself and every application contributes to reducing the enemy's hit points. Control doesn't stack with itself in the same way. Multiple application of control abilities typically do nothing, and control is only useful for its duration. If enemies constantly regenerated health at a rapid pace, then I'd see the comparison as meaningful. As it stands, asking for control to be less effective in high-level missions is a bit like suggesting that player heals and buffs be less effective in high-level missions.

Finally, it's not just the Corpus. The Infested Ancient Disruptor aura cuts the duration of control effects applied to enemies in range substantially. It's mostly the Grenier who are highly susceptible to control effects, which is both thematically appropriate for those knuckleheads and is offset by their heavy armour.

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I don't really see the excitement potential of a random variable being added to my abilities.  For me, that'd be a "groan" factor.  The same groan I make when I encounter invincibility phases, or enemies completely unaffected by certain things.

Heck, as much as I sometimes enjoy what DE has created, the one thing I do not trust them with in the slightest is random number generation.  They're borderline cruel with it.  The last thing I'd want to see out of enemies that can actually manage to do health damage to me is a chance to also come straight at me.

A more honest look at the games CC would serve a far greater function than implementing random failures.  Take Lokis' Radial Disarm, for example.  Are we SURE we accomplish anything positive for gameplay by allowing a more or less room sized, full, permanent disarm, then coupling it with a radiation proc and perfect invisibility?  Deployed against enemies so dumb that this will cause them to congregate in clumps that they can't path out of? 

The fundamental lunacy of that basic scenario is hard to overcome.  If we add even a small chance of direct failure to these things, Loki dies because he can't afford to get hit, at all.  Add this randomly and it means he randomly dies.  Random, unpredictable death is not fun.  And yet the basic premise of the Radial Disarm, situated on a frame that permanently doesn't get attacked, coupled with a radiation proc for good measure turns into a situation that doesn't make sense either.

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