I am getting Carpal tunnel (Semi Auto weapons)

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Except how do you use a semi-auto with a base rate of fire of 10+ while using the correct mechanics?

Aim well, then shoot.

Not use burst mechanics, like automatic mechanics.

Because it WILL hurt your hand in trying to play wrong!

Burst fire mode is there to CONSERVE ammo with a better spread than semi-auto. It's used primarily on one target, with a higher accuracy of hitting in the fog of war. Automatic fire is praying the cover fire will hit (a lot of ammo is wasted, but it lays down lot of lead so people will seek cover and not advance).

People who want to use burst fire as automatic are playing the design wrong. Be it in a fantasy game or real life battlefields. The consequences in both are a aching hand, and in real life, blisters if they try to push it beyond it's design.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

8 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Aim well, then shoot.

Not use burst mechanics, like automatic mechanics.

Because it WILL hurt your hand in trying to play wrong!

Burst fire mode is there to CONSERVE ammo with a better spread than semi-auto. It's used primarily on one target, with a higher accuracy of hitting in the fog of war. Automatic fire is praying the cover fire will hit (a lot of ammo is wasted, but it lays down lot of lead so people will seek cover and not advance).

People who want to use burst fire as automatic are playing the design wrong. Be it in a fantasy game or real life battlefields. The consequences in both are a aching hand, and in real life, blisters if they try to push it beyond it's design.

Don't defend bad mechanics with poorly conceived workarounds. In a perfectly designed game everything should have the potential to work at 100% efficiency without having to implement workarounds like macros or custom settings.

This is not a L2P issue. This is a poorly designed mechanic issue. I mean have you even considered how poorly this works using a trigger on a controller since the input has to travel further to register? I can assure you that DE hasn't either and that is a major problem.

Edited January 6, 2019 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Don't defend bad mechanics with poorly conceived workarounds.

Don't play games wrong.

DE made a burst fire weapon to fire in burst mode. You either like that way of a weapon being a brass picker-upper (old USMC style); or you love "pigs" and go right straight to the largest automatic weapon you can carry and mow the lawn PROPERLY with it! 🤣

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Don't play games wrong.

DE made a burst fire weapon to fire in burst mode. You either like that way of a weapon being a brass picker-upper (old USMC style); or you love "pigs" and go right straight to the largest automatic weapon you can carry and mow the lawn PROPERLY with it! 🤣

 

We should not us real life as an analogue for Warframe. Last I heard, one bullet RL is enough to kill you, while in Warframe enemies don't seem to die in one shot except in low levels. Also, real life doesn't have loads of tanky enemies charging at you blindly.

Real life combat doctrine and weapons are not applicable to a fantasy game with completely alien ways of thinking and combat. I have never seen a commando or similar bullet jump, firing a pistol with one hand as they cast magic with the other.

So, the weapons should not be designed with RL considerations but game ones. Warframe is NOT some hyper realistic simulator shooter.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

37 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Aim well, then shoot.

Not use burst mechanics, like automatic mechanics.

Because it WILL hurt your hand in trying to play wrong!

Burst fire mode is there to CONSERVE ammo with a better spread than semi-auto. It's used primarily on one target, with a higher accuracy of hitting in the fog of war. Automatic fire is praying the cover fire will hit (a lot of ammo is wasted, but it lays down lot of lead so people will seek cover and not advance).

People who want to use burst fire as automatic are playing the design wrong. Be it in a fantasy game or real life battlefields. The consequences in both are a aching hand, and in real life, blisters if they try to push it beyond it's design.

I don't think you actually "get it"

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

16 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Don't play games wrong.

DE made a burst fire weapon to fire in burst mode. You either like that way of a weapon being a brass picker-upper (old USMC style); or you love "pigs" and go right straight to the largest automatic weapon you can carry and mow the lawn PROPERLY with it! 🤣

 

Did you really just compare Warframe to real life? The mental gymnastics here is incredible! This strawmans you guys come up with is nothing but mind boggling.

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

2 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Poor DE. They're facing the same problem EA was facing in BF3: when Support toons got an machine gun and endless ammo box, and could lay down cover fire, and all the snipers and rat-tat-tatters (lol) were bellyaching that their accuracy was being pummelled by 10000000000000000000000000000 bullets and grenades!

Each fire mode has their pros and cons. Burst has higher accuracy but can't lay down cover fire. Automatics can lay down cover fire but at the cost of lower per round damage and eats rounds like pigs at the feeding bin (Amprex and Soma anyone???).

Firing a burst weapon to achieve automatic cover fire isn't a design problem at DE's end, that's a player problem of trying to get accuracy AND automatic rates of cover fire ... and now complaining it hurts their hand.

Burst fire was never made to be automatic. It's a burst of 3-5 rounds PER click. Not 10-20 rounds for the same 2 seconds with automatics.

Folks are playing the mechanics wrong.

EA and Battlefield 3 is irrelevant and not even comparable to Warframe on any level except guns and knives kill people is literally the only thing they have in common. This is non sequitur

[Tiltskillet]

On 2018-12-23 at 5:48 PM, GehennaGate said:

DE fix this please give us an option to toggle full auto on these types of weapons. maybe with decreased fire rate (scaling with to fire rate mods used) the Ajagara prime is a great weapon that i simply cant play with. I would rather land accurate shots with Lex or spray but with consistent recoil with Akstiletto than do tons of damage for 2 minutes but then break my finger.  

Am not calling to a buff to these weapons, cap the fire rate, or soft cap it, after some % adding fire rate starts having diminishing returns.

If it's optional, and if it comes with a decreased RoF, this seems more than reasonable. 

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Don't defend bad mechanics with poorly conceived workarounds. In a perfectly designed game everything should have the potential to work at 100% efficiency without having to implement workarounds like macros or custom settings.

This is not a L2P issue. This is a poorly designed mechanic issue. I mean have you even considered how poorly this works using a trigger on a controller since the input has to travel further to register? I can assure you that DE hasn't either and that is a major problem.

It's actualy not a bad mechanic at all.  I myself use them in the exact manner that @Kevyne_Kicklighter described.  I don't expect spray-n-pray weapons to be highly accurate, and I don't expect burst fire weapons to be bullet hoses.  As for the thing about controllers, I use a controller for Warframe on PC and don't have a problem with this mechanic at all.  There are also contollers and/or setting that make the travel of the trigger irrelevant.  But my real problem understanding this argument is why use a burst fire weapon when you already have plenty of choices in full-auto weapons to choose from instead.  

1 hour ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

Did you really just compare Warframe to real life? The mental gymnastics here is incredible! This strawmans you guys come up with is nothing but mind boggling.

This was an incorrect use of the overused term strawman.  As Kevyne's statements don't qualify as such by the definition of the word as he/she was giving examples that explained their reasoning for why it's not a bad design. One that I happen to agree with for the exact same reasons.  Think about it for a bit, even in the fantasy setting of Warframe we don't expect a Bow to lay down cover fire as something like the soma would now do we.  😄    

Quote

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.  One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by DatDarkOne
spelling

[NeopetsMaster4432]

1 hour ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Aim well, then shoot.

Not use burst mechanics, like automatic mechanics.

Because it WILL hurt your hand in trying to play wrong!

Burst fire mode is there to CONSERVE ammo with a better spread than semi-auto. It's used primarily on one target, with a higher accuracy of hitting in the fog of war. Automatic fire is praying the cover fire will hit (a lot of ammo is wasted, but it lays down lot of lead so people will seek cover and not advance).

People who want to use burst fire as automatic are playing the design wrong. Be it in a fantasy game or real life battlefields. The consequences in both are a aching hand, and in real life, blisters if they try to push it beyond it's design.

So are you saying that DE designed the stats for semi automatic guns poorly and with a much lower comparative DPS than all other guns because you're not supposed to shoot them as quickly as DE intended or balanced their speed/damage around??? 

That's poor design in itself. 
Just because you are able to use a workaround to get past poorly implemented mechanics, or it's possible to ignore such mechanics all together doesn't mean someone is playing wrong. Honestly, what you're saying is tantamount to "it's not bad because you have an option to not use it". Which doesn't change the fact that it's poorly designed and it would be an improvement for pretty much everyone if they were to fix it.

 

45 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

If it's optional, and if it comes with a decreased RoF, this seems more than reasonable. 

Even if it were only diminishing fire rate returns from mods, it would be balanced better without a fire rate decrease though. Because it would be a QoL improvement that wouldn't improve DPS by any means. That would be similar to DE adding a global damage penalty to all guns and making the automatic reloading feature toggleable to get rid of the penalty. 😛 Having an automatic trigger isn't a buff.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

I don't think you actually "get it"

But I do "get it", and for MANY years (I'm UNATCOII)...

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf3/forum/threadview/2832654624740343148/

https://www.gametracker.com/unatcoii/image.php?id=191914

28 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

We should not us real life as an analogue for Warframe. Last I heard, one bullet RL is enough to kill you, while in Warframe enemies don't seem to die in one shot except in low levels. Also, real life doesn't have loads of tanky enemies charging at you blindly.

Real life combat doctrine and weapons are not applicable to a fantasy game with completely alien ways of thinking and combat. I have never seen a commando or similar bullet jump, firing a pistol with one hand as they cast magic with the other.

So, the weapons should not be designed with RL considerations but game ones. Warframe is NOT some hyper realistic simulator shooter.

Because it will make your whole argument meaningless. Besides, I mentioned both.

49 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

EA and Battlefield 3 is irrelevant and not even comparable to Warframe on any level except guns and knives kill people is literally the only thing they have in common. This is non sequitur

(Was the same on the EA forums, and the same arguments about cover fire or heavy munitions. Yelling and screaming that THIS IS A FANTASY GAME, meanwhile wanting more "realistic" stats and fire modes to their weapons!).

[CatboyPrincess]

11 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

But my real problem understanding this argument is why use a burst fire weapon when you already have plenty of choices in full-auto weapons to choose from instead.  

Your real problem seems to be ignoring the actual argument.

The actual argument is that weapons that are designed to rely on inhuman performance to achieve balance in order to provide entertainment to human players is bad design and badly needs to be fixed with in-game design changes.

6 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Yelling and screaming that THIS IS A FANTASY GAME, meanwhile wanting more "realistic" stats and fire modes to their weapons

This has no relevance to the actual argument. No one is demanding "realistic" stats and fire modes in the context of realism vs speculative fantasy. The primary demand is that weapons are realistically usable to their full potential by human players without causing health issues through requiring repetitive motions.

Ergo, this is an accessibility issue, not a balance one.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Gwyndolin-chan

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

2 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Your real problem seems to be ignoring the actual argument.

The actual argument is that weapons that are designed to rely on inhuman performance to achieve balance in order to provide entertainment to human players is bad design and badly needs to be fixed with in-game design changes.

HUMAN performance is the STOP in personal responsibility.

If firing a weapon so fast that their hand hurts is THEIR responsibility for playing the wrong weapon for the job.

It's like complaining about an infestation run, and arriving with a bow, and yelling their hand hurts for having to fire so much............

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

HUMAN performance is the STOP in personal responsibility.

If firing a weapon so fast that their hand hurts is THEIR responsibility for playing the wrong weapon for the job.

It's like complaining about an infestation run, and arriving with a bow, and yelling their hand hurts for having to fire so much............

Wait, so it's my responsibility to use a macro or turbo button to offset a poorly designed mechanic? I mean let's think about this. A player could use a rate of fire mod to increase the speed at which a weapon fires beyond that of a human input, but to design the weapon to start beyond human inputs is simply a bad design choice. And if this is intentional then where is the spoiled strike mod for semi-auto and burst weapons?

[DatDarkOne]

17 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Your real problem seems to be ignoring the actual argument.

The actual argument is that weapons that are designed to rely on inhuman performance to achieve balance in order to provide entertainment to human players is bad design and badly needs to be fixed with in-game design changes.

I'm not ignoring the argument at all.  It's a straight up stupid argument.  Basically you are saying that all weapons should be the same with the same mechanics.  Which would completely destroy any semblance of having different weapon types to fit them.   What's the point of having 157 weapons if all of them shoot the same and have the same mechanics but just look different.  That is basically what your argument is in a nutshell.  

I'm not ignoring anything.  I'm looking at the larger picture, and not ignoring the larger scale to only see one pixel.  

9 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

HUMAN performance is the STOP in personal responsibility.

If firing a weapon so fast that their hand hurts is THEIR responsibility for playing the wrong weapon for the job.

It's like complaining about an infestation run, and arriving with a bow, and yelling their hand hurts for having to fire so much.........…

^^THIS EXACTLY.   This is one of the very reasons I use a controller to play Warframe.  For hand comfort just so I don't have the issues that OP mentioned in the first post.  

Edited January 6, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Wait, so it's my responsibility to use a macro or turbo button to offset a poorly designed mechanic? I mean let's think about this. A player could use a rate of fire mod to increase the speed at which a weapon fires beyond that of a human input, but to design the weapon to start beyond human inputs is simply a bad design choice. And if this is intentional then where is the spoiled strike mod for semi-auto and burst weapons?

No. It's on the player to bring the right tool for the job. DE just designs 1000000000000000000000000000001 weapons.

Pick the best one for you and not go crazy blasting too much! 🤣

 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 minute ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

No. It's on the player to bring the right tool for the job. DE just designs 1000000000000000000000000000001 weapons.

Pick the best one for you and not go crazy blasting too much! 🤣

 

Are you really trying to make the claim that every weapon in Warframe is unique unto itself and somehow choosing one with a slower rate of fire is an intended feature?

[ArcKnight9202]

I was messing around with the Kunai yesterday. I wondered why a throwing dagger was fully-automatic instead of semi-auto. I can't even imagine trying to use the Hikou if it was semi-auto. It just shows us there is nonsense on each end of the spectrum.

Overall, offering a hold-to-fire feature would hurt nothing. Sure, I get the arguments that it throws the definitions out the window in a literal sense. However, why does it matter? The Argonak already has a slow rate of fire and I routinely use the full-auto feature in single round shots. I feel the semi-auto mode is redundant(stat differences aside). Aiming for head shots is still paramount. No one is forcing anyone to hold the button and use it as a poor man's automatic. It just doesn't have to suck when you don't want it to.

This feature is already on the Battacor and I had 4 forma on it before I even realized it.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Are you really trying to make the claim that every weapon in Warframe is unique unto itself and somehow choosing one with a slower rate of fire is an intended feature?

Oh, yeah!!!!!

Thanks for the "Umph" back, DE! 🤗

[CatboyPrincess]

1 hour ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

If firing a weapon so fast that their hand hurts is THEIR responsibility for playing the wrong weapon for the job.

It's like complaining about an infestation run, and arriving with a bow, and yelling their hand hurts for having to fire so much............

Personal responsibility has nothing to do with the hard facts, such as Akjgara Prime having a fire rate of 10 RPS, being balanced around that number, and that achieving 10 RPS is largely not possible or extremely inconvenient for any human.

In other words, this is nothing at all like complaining about an infestation run while bringing a bow because there is no situation in which 10 RPS is a reasonable fire rate for a semi-auto weapon.

57 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm not ignoring the argument at all.  It's a straight up stupid argument.  Basically you are saying that all weapons should be the same with the same mechanics.  Which would completely destroy any semblance of having different weapon types to fit them.   What's the point of having 157 weapons if all of them shoot the same and have the same mechanics but just look different.  That is basically what your argument is in a nutshell.  

I'm not ignoring anything.  I'm looking at the larger picture, and not ignoring the larger scale to only see one pixel.  

"All weapons should be the same with the same mechanics" does not even come close to "weapons should be designed so as not to require inhuman performance to achieve a modicum of balance."

It is very obviously clear that there are only a few outliers that are affected by this issue and that your rant has no relevance to this issue.

It's not a stupid argument -- it's just that you seem to insist on ignoring that this is an accessibility issue and an issue of poor design for human players. Or perhaps you simply don't have the means of comprehension or empathy or personal experience necessary to understand why this might be an issue.

---

Why don't you two treat yourselves to some hard facts, evidence, and personal experience? Visit this website (or any other click speed testing website) and just try to maintain 10 clicks per second 🙂

I can barely make 10 clicks per second when totally optimizing my body positioning in the 5 and 10 second timers.

Given a weapon like the Akjagara Prime, which is presumably balanced around its DPS, let's see if it's balanced around the average clicks per second you can achieve in those speed tests, which simulate only the requirement of achieving the fire rate of 10 RPS on a semi-auto weapon -- ignoring movement, aiming, and using abilities 🙂

Of course, when you fail, please keep in mind that the Akjagara Prime's balanced performance expects that the player maintain 10 RPS.

Going back to the "infestation vs. bow" fallacious comparison -- the bow can be fired at its maximum fire rate with a reasonable amount of mechanical work to achieve its balanced performance. So even if the overall fire rate will be low and not very effective against the Infestation, its balanced performance is still within reach of most players, maintaining maximum DPS even if the damage per shot fired is wasted on the relatively weak Infested mobs. In contrast, the Akjagara Prime and weapons like it will never achieve its maximum DPS without aid outside of the design of the video game. Then, it is entirely unreasonable to expect all players to have a macro ready to use the Akjagara Prime and its other few fellow outliers.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Gwyndolin-chan

[(NSW)RabidSkag]

Macros and mouse wheels, pfft... try use a controller

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

It is very obviously clear that there are only a few outliers that are affected by this issue and that your rant has no relevance to this issue.

It's not a stupid argument -- it's just that you seem to insist on ignoring that this is an accessibility issue for most players.

Ok, let's break this down. You admit that only a few outliers have this "issue".  You also state that it's an accessibility issue.  There is no way that both of those can be true at the same time while we have access to so many different types of weapons in the game.  Saying it is an accessibility issue implies that you don't have access to any other weapons but those that have the "issue".  Why use a weapon that you might or are having trouble with when you don't have to?  It seems to me that for your argument to be correct one must ignore all the other possibly 100+ weapons that don't have this "issue".  But yet I'm the one ignoring something.  LOL.

12 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

"weapons should be designed so as not to require inhuman performance to achieve a modicum of balance."

This is like saying Banshee should be designed to tank a lvl 100 bombard shot to achieve a modicum of balance.  

19 minutes ago, Gwyndolin-chan said:

Why don't you two treat yourselves to some hard facts, evidence, and personal experience? Visit this website (or any other click speed testing website) and just try to maintain 10 clicks per second 🙂

I can barely make 10 clicks per second when totally optimizing my body positioning in the 5 and 10 second timers.

On the test I was able to get 9 clicks on multiple tries only being limited by my mouse.  I can actually go faster than that because of my past drummer background.  If I had slightly different type of mouse, 10+ clicks in one second would be no problem to get consistently. 

Let's take a command input of the throw Summon Suffering that Ivy has in the game Soul Calibur series or the Spinning Piledriver move that Ryu Hayabusa has in the Ninja Gaiden games.  Those are two moves that I personally find extremely difficult to do physically myself.  Yet there are people that can do every time at a moments notice whenever they want.  This is exactly how I see this whole argument of this topic.   

I'm really not trying to be an arse.  It's just these little arguing points just don't make much sense to me. 

 

[Chaemyerelis]

OP, there are also mice out there that can help will carpel tunnel issues. 

[CatboyPrincess]

31 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Saying it is an accessibility issue implies that you don't have access to any other weapons but those that have the "issue". 

It doesn't imply this. The focus of the thread is semi-autos with high fire rates. The scope of accessibility then is limited to the weapons for which this description matches.

31 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is like saying Banshee should be designed to tank a lvl 100 bombard shot to achieve a modicum of balance.

It is not at all like your comparison. Frame balance and usability is completely different from gun balance and usability. There are plenty of situations Banshee is useful. Are there any situations in which consistently achieving 10 RPS semi-auto reasonable?

31 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

-execution difficulty-

This is the only point that makes some sense to me. However, there is no reason this should apply to Warframe. Moreover, if execution difficulty was important, then it would still need to be contextualized in Warframe. Akjagara P at maximum fire rate is not significantly more effective or is even weaker than weapons with less execution difficulty e.g. Akvasto Prime.

Even then, there is no reason to make execution more difficult than what average players can handle, especially in a non-competitive game, when the solution (an auto trigger type option) would allow more players access to the particular outliers such as Akjagara Prime.

Edit: The overarching idea is to enable more players to use a fancy looking weapon without sacrificing their physical health nor the existing capabilities of the weapon, instead of excluding anyone who does not have a drummer background.

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Gwyndolin-chan

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

21 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

On the test I was able to get 9 clicks on multiple tries only being limited by my mouse.  I can actually go faster than that because of my past drummer background.  If I had slightly different type of mouse, 10+ clicks in one second would be no problem to get consistently. 

Yep. I click heal 40 players in WoW ... and still can beat the "efficient" macro users (bite me WeakAura2 users).

But I have a special tool designed to do it efficiently, too!

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/11805-vuhdo-a-comprehensive-guide/

But like every game there's people who are just arrogant AND dumb...

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1233527-Why-its-bad-good-to-click?p=19320771&viewfull=1#post19320771

5,000,000 users use " suboptimal control method " types according to a forum "warrior".

Like I said, you see them in every game and forum. 😴