I am getting Carpal tunnel (Semi Auto weapons)

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

10 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

HINT: Semi-auto doesn't fire like automatics. HELLO???

As noted the ONLY difference between full-auto, burst and semi-auto is the number of rounds fired before a forced delay is inserted. So give semi-autos a delay between shots but don't pretend that in a video game having to click 10x per second is a good and balanced mechanic.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

As noted the ONLY difference between full-auto, burst and semi-auto is the number of rounds fired before a forced delay is inserted. So give semi-autos a delay between shots but don't pretend that in a video game having to click 10x per second is a good and balanced mechanic.

It's not a balance mechanic.  It's to simulate the same types of fire rates of real life weapons.  You can say all day that because this is a game that it shouldn't matter, but it does because that was more than likely the intent of the devs.  

I would like to add that because I use a Xbox One controller on PC I get the extra nice detail of trigger feedback/rumble from firing the weapons.  And they all feel different.  It's a very nice touch that DE added.  When Steam made parts of my controller stop working, the first thing I noticed was not getting feedback when firing weapons.  Out with Steam and on to DE client and all is good with the world. 

don't know if the consoles and PS4 controller have the same feature. 

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

2 hours ago, ChaosSabre said:

I'll take a auto firing weapon over a semi fire everytime. If it's a slow revolver style weapon then I can understand it. But Akbolto Prime can fire faster than you can mash the button with fire rate mods. You need to actually use a macro to get the max damage output out of it. And you can control fire a auto weapon as well. I never had issues firing those in bursts if I know the target doesn't need that much damage. Also it doesn't let you just spray down a hallway of enemies without hurting your fingers by mashing the button. I mean people already use macros to rapid fire those why not just make it a toggle.

Well then I have a suggestion for you:
Take an auto firing weapon, the game has them - you don't need to infringe on archetypes other people like just because they don't suit your needs

And I'm glad you never had issue firing in bursts... because I clearly stated the benefit of the current archetype is that it doesn't burst, it's single bullet control.  Again if the Akbolto is a fire rate of 7, which it is by default - and it were auto, this means you have 1/7 of a single second to only shoot one bullet before it does become a burst.  You won't get very good single shot control, if any, from super jacked up firerate autos, simple as that.  Unless you have god tier, milisecond level timing, then it's just not happening.  

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by (PS4)lagrue

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

53 minutes ago, (XB1)Skiller115 said:

99% of all humans cannot press a trigger at 10 shots PER SECOND! ITS LITERALLY PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE! 

I don't even use my computer frequently, pulled up a click counter, and regularly was getting 11 clicks per second on average lol.  And if you do a search of "clicks per second" in google, and people posting their scores... you quickly see 1000s upon 1000s of people who have no issues doing this.... most gamers tend to score in the 10+ range... under that is considered being slow at clicking.  It's not any harder to do with the trigger, I do it on a daily basis...

Edited January 7, 2019 by (PS4)lagrue

[ThumpumGood]

A lot of people play with a controller like Steam, Xbox, PS4 controllers on their PC.

 

[Flavor-Savior]

44 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

Well then I have a suggestion for you:
Take an auto firing weapon, the game has them - you don't need to infringe on archetypes other people like just because they don't suit your needs

And I'm glad you never had issue firing in bursts... because I clearly stated the benefit of the current archetype is that it doesn't burst, it's single bullet control.  Again if the Akbolto is a fire rate of 7, which it is by default - and it were auto, this means you have 1/7 of a single second to only shoot one bullet before it does become a burst.  You won't get very good single shot control, if any, from super jacked up firerate autos, simple as that.  Unless you have god tier, milisecond level timing, then it's just not happening.  

 

Why the assumption that having a continuous fire toggle will turn every semi-auto revolver into Twin Vipers? DE can adjust the efficiency of any such feature to their liking. I've never had trouble shooting a single round while using Tiberon's auto-fire. The toggle itself isn't infringing on semi-auto weapons, leave it off if you'd prefer; I'm sure nobody would mind if firing them manually was faster than using the toggle, that seems only fair. As others in the thread have already stated though, the shot-to-damage ratios for many existing semi-auto weapons are already a pretty hard sell for anybody accustomed to even the most modest automatic or burst-fire weapon, and frequently encourages macro use or key remapping workabouts which are clumsy and obnoxious to switch on and off depending on your current loadout.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, ThumpumGood said:

A lot of people play with a controller like Steam, Xbox, PS4 controllers on their PC.

 

Yep, and I'm one of them.  Proud owner of Xbox One Elite Controller.  After 2 years only replaced the left and right bumper buttons with custom Red chrome ones after the left one broke. Been going strong for another year.  Got a nice chatpad attached which not only allows for typing easier, but also gives keyboard shortcuts to my controller.  Best money I've ever spent besides building my own PCs.  

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, FlavorSavior said:

As others in the thread have already stated though, the shot-to-damage ratios for many existing semi-auto weapons are already a pretty hard sell for anybody accustomed to even the most modest automatic or burst-fire weapon, and frequently encourages macro use or key remapping workabouts which are clumsy and obnoxious to switch on and off depending on your current loadout.

But why?  Especially when we already pretty much oneshot lvl 100 enemies.   Don't get me wrong and think that I'm completely against the suggestion of adding the toggle. It's just the reasons most of you are giving for needing it are superficial to the point of coming off as entitled when you probably aren't meaning to.  

[Flavor-Savior]

3 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

But why?  Especially when we already pretty much oneshot lvl 100 enemies.   Don't get me wrong and think that I'm completely against the suggestion of adding the toggle. It's just the reasons most of you are giving for needing it are superficial to the point of coming off as entitled when you probably aren't meaning to.  

Many (if not most, if we're talking newcomer) players don't actually have access to the kinds of mods and semi-auto weapons that one-shot sortie-level enemies. Warframe is a horde shooter with frequently upwards of a dozen enemies onscreen at a time, especially if we're talking Defense, Survival or Sanctuary Onslaught. That is a lot of extra clicking for results that may not be proportionate to the added effort and strain on the player, without mentioning the people suffering from, or at risk of physical disabilities, which this thread actually concerns. Yes, those people should configure their setups accordingly but I think that DE, like many other mainstream developers, should consider some basic physical accessibility options to better accommodate this percentage of their audience.

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

23 minutes ago, FlavorSavior said:

Why the assumption that having a continuous fire toggle will turn every semi-auto revolver into Twin Vipers? DE can adjust the efficiency of any such feature to their liking. I've never had trouble shooting a single round while using Tiberon's auto-fire. The toggle itself isn't infringing on semi-auto weapons, leave it off if you'd prefer; I'm sure nobody would mind if firing them manually was faster than using the toggle, that seems only fair.

That's a unique feature of the Tiberon - it's one of the gun's characteristics.  Not sure if you've noticed, but almost all guns in this game have a "personality" determined by what makes them unique.  What you are suggesting is to rob Tiberon of what makes it unique and just making it a standard feature, I'm not sure I support that - but I'm not overtly against it either....  I think the whole idea of this is basically pointless though because the reality is you do have weapons at your disposal that will suit your needs.

I do have a hard time, however believing that you can reliably single shot the Tiberon in the Full Auto mode when you only have 1/8th of a second to do so... that's inhuman levels of timing.   I'd believe you could do it sometimes, but certainly not reliably - and that still won't change the fact I can single shot a semi auto at 1RPS, 3 RPS, 7RPS etc. With a full auto its simply not possible - you might get lucky and get a single shot off at 1RPS, but otherwise there's no in between - for example you cannot take the Tiberon and do single shots at 3RPS, it's physically impossible because the game won't allow it, it will start bursting if you try.

The thing is - yeah DE can adjust anything to their liking.... just like they already designed these guns to their liking.  I don't see why every weapon needs to be tailored to every player... they don't have to use these guns.  There's also the slippery slope factor... if they did add the toggle...What's to then stop me from requesting that DE make every weapon in the game, even Full Autos to now be toggle?  It's just a pointless amount of work for VERY little payoff.  It would be a balancing nightmare as well since as you can tell on the Tiberon, stats must be changed for each firing mode.    

Edited January 7, 2019 by (PS4)lagrue

[Flavor-Savior]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

That's a unique feature of the Tiberon - it's one of the gun's characteristics.  Not sure if you've noticed, but almost all guns in this game have a "personality" determined by what makes them unique.  What you are suggesting is to rob Tiberon of what makes it unique and just making it a standard feature, I'm not sure I support that - but I'm not overtly against it either....  I think the whole idea of this is basically pointless though because the reality is you do have weapons at your disposal that will suit your needs.

I do have a hard time, however believing that you can reliably single shot the Tiberon in the Full Auto mode when you only have 1/8th of a second to do so... that's inhuman levels of timing.   I'd believe you could od it sometimes, but certainly not reliably - and that still won't change the fact I can single shot a 1RPS, 3 RPS, 7RPS etc. With a full auto its simply not possible - you might get lucky and get a single shot off at 1RPS, but otherwise there's no in between - for example you cannot take the Tiberon and do single shots at 3RPS, it's physically impossible because the game won't allow it.

The thing is - yeah DE can adjust anything to their liking.... just like they already designed these guns to their liking.  

I understand your argument and yes, every gun's handling is unique. I don't know if I'm articulating the idea properly, I'm not suggesting adding Tiberon's alt-fire to every gun, I'm merely suggesting adding a continuous fire toggle to the in-game options menu. A number of accessibility options already exist in that menu: hold-to-crouch, hold-to-sprint, hold-to-aim-down-sights, and a toggle for all those functions; essentially what I think OP is requesting (and I support) is a click-to-shoot-semi-automatic versus hold-to-shoot-semi-automatic toggle. I don't believe that having such a toggle would alter the firing rate or the recoil of your shiny Pandero, it would just make it less tiring to fire for the duration of your 40+ minute marathon survival fissure.

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

The thing is - yeah DE can adjust anything to their liking.... just like they already designed these guns to their liking.  I don't see why every weapon needs to be tailored to every player... they don't have to use these guns.  There's also the slippery slope factor... if they did add the toggle...What's to then stop me from requesting that DE make every weapon in the game, even Full Autos to now be toggle? 

^THIS!    I bolded and underlined the important part that I want stressed.  

[Yamazuki]

1 hour ago, (PS4)lagrue said:

I don't even use my computer frequently, pulled up a click counter, and regularly was getting 11 clicks per second on average lol.  And if you do a search of "clicks per second" in google, and people posting their scores... you quickly see 1000s upon 1000s of people who have no issues doing this.... most gamers tend to score in the 10+ range... under that is considered being slow at clicking.  It's not any harder to do with the trigger, I do it on a daily basis...

Clicking your mouse quickly in a browser/app is going to be significantly easier for any given person than doing so on Warframe (or games in general) because the focus is only on clicking as quickly as you can, and because the time spent clicking is significantly shorter (a few seconds). I can personally click my mouse quickly too, but it is not at the maximum speed that I can if I'm playing League or Warframe.

Thousands of people clicking fast is fairly low, both with Waframe's population factor, and the gaming population. "Most gamers" don't score high for any given category, the differences between even the top 10% of a game's player base and the other 90% has always had significant differences between APMs/clicks, decision making, awareness, and overall strategy. What most people here consider to be "bad" or "slow" is in reality going to be what's more often than not average. Average players don't click fast or play as well either due to the less serious attitude towards games, or physical/mental limitations; generally age. Anyone who doesn't face these issues, or is even marginally above average is simply no different than the out of touch politician, their experiences, despite being part of a minority group, are expected to be normal (average).

[Flavor-Savior]

38 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

^THIS!    I bolded and underlined the important part that I want stressed.  

Quite simply, common sense. I don't like slippery slope arguments because the worst-case scenario is rarely a realistic expectation. Who in their right mind would ask for an option to turn their Grakata into a semi-auto rifle? Similarly, yes, a person at risk of carpal tunnel is thankfully not obligated to use a Pandero or Akjagara, but neither are they really obligated to sprint or aim down sights or crouch, but toggles for those actions still exist for the user to tailor their control scheme to their needs, rather than the needs of every manic bullet-jumping veteran. I'll concede this analogy isn't perfect, but I hope it's sufficient. I think the heavy tactile handling of semi-auto weapons can still be replicated with a toggle, if the firing rate is kept low and the recoil remains high.

Here's an informational video that can express these points a little more concisely, and no, it doesn't just boil down to "make the game easier". If injury from repetitive inputs can be mitigated or prevented from an in-game options menu, there is no reason not to give the end user that option.

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by FlavorSavior

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

As noted the ONLY difference between full-auto, burst and semi-auto is the number of rounds fired before a forced delay is inserted. So give semi-autos a delay between shots but don't pretend that in a video game having to click 10x per second is a good and balanced mechanic.

That's WHY it's a BURST fire weapon in this game.

In real life, burst fire is to control ammo consumption and offer better bullet spread with better accuracy than automatic fire.

BUT it still fires like a semi-auto.

You're playing the weapon wrong, wanting all the perks without any downsides. ALL weapons have pros and cons.

You're getting push back in also ENCOURAGING making CTS possible. You don't reward damaging behaviors like that to OTHERS. Think beyond your wants and see the larger population who would want to play without hand splints and future surgery that makes their hand(s) useless for 6 weeks!

All because of a badly thought out idea.

[MagPrime]

So...read through the thread a couple times and I'd like to point out that the OP onlymmentions a painful medical condition in the title. 

They make no claims to actually having it or that their medical provider has concerns of them getting it from this game, and what I'm getting from this is that they find a mechanic annoying and want DE to spend dozens of man hours to change it.  

Because they find it annoying. 

And now we have 5 visible pages of you guys going at eachother over someone's suggestion on changing an annoying mechanic, with a trigger word in the title, and a metric ton of assumptions and insults. 

When did they stop teaching critical thinking in school?  When did basic problem solving stop being a thing? 

GG guys, GG.

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

18 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

So...read through the thread a couple times and I'd like to point out that the OP onlymmentions a painful medical condition in the title. 

They make no claims to actually having it or that their medical provider has concerns of them getting it from this game, and what I'm getting from this is that they find a mechanic annoying and want DE to spend dozens of man hours to change it.  

Because they find it annoying. 

And now we have 5 visible pages of you guys going at eachother over someone's suggestion on changing an annoying mechanic, with a trigger word in the title, and a metric ton of assumptions and insults. 

When did they stop teaching critical thinking in school?  When did basic problem solving stop being a thing? 

GG guys, GG.

When they started teaching a smug sense of superiority, apparently.

How would it take hundreds of man hours to allow semi auto weapons to fire at their maximum fire rate while holding down the trigger?

[MagPrime]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

When they started teaching a smug sense of superiority, apparently.

How would it take hundreds of man hours to allow semi auto weapons to fire at their maximum fire rate while holding down the trigger?

They also don't teach reading comprehension anymore either...

[Corvid]

Since people are saying to just use a macro, I don't understand why there is such opposition to the idea of adding the toggle, as it would basically be the same thing.

My fingers are naturally bent in a way that makes rapid clicking difficult, so having this option would widen the range of weapons I'd be able to comfortably use.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Since people are saying to just use a macro, I don't understand why there is such opposition to the idea of adding the toggle, as it would basically be the same thing.

My fingers are naturally bent in a way that makes rapid clicking difficult, so having this option would widen the range of weapons I'd be able to comfortably use.

I'm not against a toggle, just against someone using a medical condition in a potentially hyperbolic manner to get a change forced through. 

But if this change is made, then I hope DE takes a look at other changes for people with light triggers. Blue light has been found to trigger and worsen seizures and migraines, and we have an entire faction that has a borderline fetish for the color, with two units that employ flashbombs and spam an ability that mimics strobing lights. 

And let's not forget our color blind players. Several have made threads about the inadequate color scheme options available to them. 

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

22 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

So...read through the thread a couple times and I'd like to point out that the OP onlymmentions a painful medical condition in the title. 

They make no claims to actually having it or that their medical provider has concerns of them getting it from this game, and what I'm getting from this is that they find a mechanic annoying and want DE to spend dozens of man hours to change it.  

Because they find it annoying. 

And now we have 5 visible pages of you guys going at eachother over someone's suggestion on changing an annoying mechanic, with a trigger word in the title, and a metric ton of assumptions and insults. 

When did they stop teaching critical thinking in school?  When did basic problem solving stop being a thing? 

GG guys, GG.

Critiques are critiques. Suggest bad behaviors and ENCOURAGE it in a general forum, THEN also claiming it would cause HIM CTS ... well, honestly, this is a troll thread.

The illogic of the thread is this if "critical thinkers" haven't figured it out yet.

1. Guy likes a weapon that's semi-auto.
2. Guy wants to fire the weapon like an automatic, though.
3. Guy's hand is now aching due to trying to click a semi-auto to function like an automatic.
4. Guy now is whining "can you change this to have automatic fire" before HE gets CTS.
5. Guy refuses to even understand the difference of semi-auto vs automatic fire.
6. Guy STILL advocates based on his idea, and refusing to understand or CARE why there's different fire modes.
7. Guy also doesn't care how unbalanced some weapons will become if they were allowed to be automatics.
8. ALL so the guy can fire the way HE likes and damn anything else ... including ENCOURAGING behaviors like that to OTHERS.

Medical conditions also aren't jokes. I don't have CTS, I have CPSP which is the worst pain known in my left arm, caused by a thalamic stroke. Pure hot grease on your arm and live with it problem. No pain meds take it away, either. Because the brain misreads sensory signals wrong. The pressure of a shirt sleeve on the skin comes back to the brain as you burned your arm.

CTS isn't a joke. I've known friends who had to have surgery for it. Ergonomics today is encouraged through out industry to prevent long-term injuries ... but LOGICALLY, not for some kid to play games wrong, as to him it's EVERYTHING HAS to fire faster and faster to be "better".

Speed is a terrible monster and kids KNOWING what CTS is and using it as an EXCUSE for their BAD BEHAVIORS, isn't a "logical" REASON to have a automatic toggle for every weapon in a game.

Sometimes there has to be limits FOR BALANCE and a sense of realism (yes even in fantasy games), because too much of anything isn't good for people -- in video games, too.

[MagPrime]

1 minute ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Critiques are critiques. Suggest bad behaviors and ENCOURAGE it in a general forum, THEN also claiming it would cause HIM CTS ... well, honestly, this is a troll thread.

The illogic of the thread is this if "critical thinkers" haven't figured it out yet.

1. Guy likes a weapon that's semi-auto.
2. Guy wants to fire the weapon like an automatic, though.
3. Guy's hand is now aching due to trying to click a semi-auto to function like an automatic.
4. Guy now is whining "can you change this to have automatic fire" before HE gets CTS.
5. Guy refuses to even understand the difference of semi-auto vs automatic fire.
6. Guy STILL advocates based on his idea, and refusing to understand or CARE why there's different fire modes.
7. Guy also doesn't care how unbalanced some weapons will become if they were allowed to be automatics.
8. ALL so the guy can fire the way HE likes and damn anything else ... including ENCOURAGING behaviors like that to OTHERS.

Medical conditions also aren't jokes. I don't have CTS, I have CPSP which is the worst pain known in my left arm, caused by a thalamic stroke. Pure hot grease on your arm and live with it problem. No pain meds take it away, either. Because the brain misreads sensory signals wrong. The pressure of a shirt sleeve on the skin comes back to the brain as you burned your arm.

CTS isn't a joke. I've known friends who had to have surgery for it. Ergonomics today is encouraged through out industry to prevent long-term injuries ... but LOGICALLY, not for some kid to play games wrong, as to him it's EVERYTHING HAS to fire faster and faster to be "better".

Speed is a terrible monster and kids KNOWING what CTS is and using it as an EXCUSE for their BAD BEHAVIORS, isn't a "logical" REASON to have a automatic toggle for every weapon in a game.

Sometimes there has to be limits FOR BALANCE and a sense of realism (yes even in fantasy games), because too much of anything isn't good for people -- in video games, too.

I have family members with CTS, I don't find it a joke either. 

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

18 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I have family members with CTS, I don't find it a joke either. 

 

And about feedback controllers for gamers -- be careful about them, too...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5349719/

Don't learn about this the hard way. When the sensory system is damaged, it's more than just your hand/arm feeling numb that will bother you later.

Gamers spend as long as 8hrs a day with gaming devices, as long as construction workers using Jackhammers.

I can't even use a weed-eater anymore due to the vibrations it causes, that triggers PAINFUL spasms so strong that I have to PRY my hand open. All I feel is my arm burning and going numb, and by then, it's days of spasms and pain. That's what sensory system damage does.

[Toran]

Am ‎24‎.‎12‎.‎2018 um 10:57 schrieb (XB1)Cubic Clem:

All those answers hurt, but are true.. semi auto shouldn't be changed.. that's why they're semi..

Semi autos focusing on status chance like the Akjagara, however, feel wrong, very wrong.

For me semi-autos are about precision and big bang for the buck, not spamming bullets or keybinding fire to the mousewheel.#

Thankfully, the Akjagara Prime has a very high Riven Disposition. To anyone who really intends to use this weapon, I highly recommend a cursed Riven Mod with Critchance on top of a maxed Primed Pistol Gambit

Lowest total critchance with a cursed triple-buff Riven will about 84%, 100%+ are possible with a cursed double-buff Riven.