I am getting Carpal tunnel (Semi Auto weapons)

[MagPrime]

4 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

And about feedback controllers for gamers -- be careful about them, too...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5349719/

Don't learn about this the hard way. When the sensory system is damaged, it's more than just your hand/arm feeling numb that will bother you later.

Gamers spend as long as 8hrs a day with gaming devices, as long as construction workers using Jackhammers.

I can't even use a weed-eater anymore due to the vibrations it causes, that triggers PAINFUL spasms so strong that I have to PRY my hand open. All I feel is my arm burning and going numb, and by then, it's days of spasms and pain. That's what sensory system damage does.

My experience with CTS is aunts, uncles and grandparents.  You gain some empathy when you see some of the strongest people in your life, crying and holding their hands because of CTS.

All in all though, I'm still not opposed to the concept presented.  I'm lazy af and wouldn't mind an option that caters to that.  But I also acknowledge and respect the reasons why people are opposed to it and even agree to many of the points.  

I don't think a toggle would solve OP's overall issue, which requires they make some changes to how they play.  I would probably be more empathetic to their stance if I believed they actually had CTS to begin with.  But due to the nature of the internet and the forum rules, they can't exactly prove it. 

/shrug, I'm rambling. 

So, I get both sides, I sympathize with the OP but I don't think it's a needed change.  (But I'm not against it either.)

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

The fact that this many people are against an accessibility option that doesn't effect their own gameplay experience at all is just baffling, and embarrassing.

[ThumpumGood]

12 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Yep, and I'm one of them.  Proud owner of Xbox One Elite Controller.  After 2 years only replaced the left and right bumper buttons with custom Red chrome ones after the left one broke. Been going strong for another year.  Got a nice chatpad attached which not only allows for typing easier, but also gives keyboard shortcuts to my controller.  Best money I've ever spent besides building my own PCs.  

My point was that there are options to getting carpal tunnel.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

2 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

The fact that this many people are against an accessibility option that doesn't effect their own gameplay experience at all is just baffling, and embarrassing.

The entitlement jokes about gamers come from a very real place. There are solutions that would benefit the entire community but they would just rather say that the ones suggesting such things are crying or not skilled enough.

As noted, DE could add a burst mechanic where each weapon fires in rapid succession. This would cut the required inputs in half. That alone would be a substantial improvement, especially for players using a controller.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

13 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

It's not a balance mechanic.  It's to simulate the same types of fire rates of real life weapons.  You can say all day that because this is a game that it shouldn't matter, but it does because that was more than likely the intent of the devs.  

I would like to add that because I use a Xbox One controller on PC I get the extra nice detail of trigger feedback/rumble from firing the weapons.  And they all feel different.  It's a very nice touch that DE added.  When Steam made parts of my controller stop working, the first thing I noticed was not getting feedback when firing weapons.  Out with Steam and on to DE client and all is good with the world. 

don't know if the consoles and PS4 controller have the same feature. 

At least you admit to using an inefficient method because you like how it feels; I guess that's something. It still doesn't change the facts that controllers are at a severe disadvantage due to the travel distance required on the trigger input though.

[NeopetsMaster4432]

3 hours ago, (PS4)ArtPrince17 said:

The fact that this many people are against an accessibility option that doesn't effect their own gameplay experience at all is just baffling, and embarrassing.

You're absolutely right about that. It's strange, because the community is usually so friendly and understanding. 😞 Why do you think people are against such an idea when it only helps more people experience content within the game without improving things like DPS?

From what I've gathered from posts in this thread, the main reasons behind it here seem to be: people not understanding how DE balanced semi-auto weapons around being shot quickly, how DE allows people to use third party programs to shoot them quickly as a workaround to their poor design, an overall elitist/entitled attitude that doesn't want other people to use the same gun as them, or a slippery slop argument which can be made about everything~

That may just be my interpretation as an impartial person who wants this game to branch out to more people though. I've never really been one to understand why anyone would wish discomfort or pain on others when it wouldn't cause any benefit to themselves. 🤷‍♀️

Edited January 7, 2019 by NeopetsMaster4432

[DatDarkOne]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

At least you admit to using an inefficient method because you like how it feels; I guess that's something. It still doesn't change the facts that controllers are at a severe disadvantage due to the travel distance required on the trigger input though.

I could have sworn that I already explained this once before in this very topic.  XB1 Elite and Scuf controllers have switches that allow for shortening the travel needed on triggers for the hair trigger effect and feel.  So travel distance on triggers isn't a factor.  

You really should have either read what I posted or did some research on the device.  

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

I could have sworn that I already explained this once before in this very topic.  XB1 Elite and Scuf controllers have switches that allow for shortening the travel needed on triggers for the hair trigger effect and feel.  So travel distance on triggers isn't a factor.  

You really should have either read what I posted or did some research on the device.  

A $150 solution isn't a real solution, it's an incredibly expensive workaround.  At this point you're just trolling if you really feel that buying a peripheral is somehow better than allowing players to control the firing mode. Entitled indeed.

[MagPrime]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

A $150 solution isn't a real solution, it's an incredibly expensive workaround.  At this point you're just trolling if you really feel that buying a peripheral is somehow better than allowing players to control the firing mode. Entitled indeed.

Ah yes, the point in a discussion when there is nothing left to be said but insults. 

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

A $150 solution isn't a real solution, it's an incredibly expensive workaround.  At this point you're just trolling if you really feel that buying a peripheral is somehow better than allowing players to control the firing mode. Entitled indeed.

If I want to play games like Elite: Dangerous, sure you're not REQUIRED to purchase a HOTAS controller. But if you think Archwing flying is terrible, try flying with 6 axis controls with just a keyboard and mouse ... to even land a spacecraft. There's a reason WHY Gus Grissom (one of the Mercury astronauts who died on the launchpad in 1967) designed what would become HOTAS controllers 40 years later -- they were PILOTS not a monkey trained to simply push buttons. They demanded to fly like pilots they were and wanted their hot stick even in space to dock and land.

Simulators get pricey in living the space fantasy of being a fighter pilot in space!!! Those systems run around $350.

I would LOVE to have one of those controllers to move in games it would be so much more comfortable than keyboards (vertical stick with a hand rest and thumb rest!), but the price is more than $150 for the system. I'm not going to suggest that just because that's perfect for me only. This isn't like an ADA requirement to just get outside or inside a building or to use a restroom, there's other options even for the disabled and MUCH cheaper.

THIS suggestion is like equating ESAs with ADA protected service dogs (because they can take their dogs with them, we can too). From it's tone to the "logic" used ... which has little to do with actual disabilities itself. It's someone feeling entitled to want to play his way, even if it can damage his hand and HURT others.

I'm ALL for accessibility options, but don't make the mistake like some legislatures and "concerned citizens" made about disabled parking, either (not everyone has a VISIBLE disability, and those spots aren't JUST for wheelchair users [I detest a wheelchair symbol for disabilities as it teaches the general public wrongly about WHO qualifies]. It's for anyone with physical disabilities, overall. Be it a heart or lung patient that walking 200ft is a chore; to the guy in a splint; to the person with MS [a condition that even goes in remission]).

Be NICE that developers would have all the features in games for the disabled, but be practical, too. Kids are mostly making video games for kids LIKE THEM, and they're usually not disabled (because studios hire like kind -- WHY gaming is so male dominated. It was nothing for Blizzard to add the color blind options into the game. Because a color blind programmer at the studio could code it. Now try to do the same for EVERY disability.................... some they aren't even aware of and even designing for "fun", but can damage people's hands, too [i.e., those feedback controls that "rumble" on controllers]).

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

48 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Ah yes, the point in a discussion when there is nothing left to be said but insults. 

 

I've posted several ways to reduce the required inputs so that all platforms could benefit and none of them cost the player anything and all of them are entirely optional. Sure, I could afford to buy a vantage scuf or other third party peripheral that enables rapid fire, macros, custom configuration and all the extras but that doesn't excuse DE from poorly implemented gameplay mechanics.

If you honestly feel that purchasing a $150+ peripheral is a valid solution that every player can afford, then entitlement is 100% accurate and not an insult. You have more than most and probably don't even understand why purchasing a $150+ controller is somehow not an option for the vast majority of gamers. Congrats!

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

Sure, I could afford to buy a vantage scuf or other third party peripheral that enables rapid fire, macros, custom configuration and all the extras but that doesn't excuse DE from poorly implemented gameplay mechanics.

And around and around it goes: no personal responsibility, even.

Meanwhile, the disabled want to get this across as "help" even...

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Kevyne_Kicklighter

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 minute ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

If I want to play games like Elite: Dangerous, sure you're not REQUIRED to purchase a HOTAS controller. But if you think Archwing flying is terrible, try flying with 6 axis controls with just a keyboard and mouse ... to even land a spacecraft. There's a reason WHY Gus Grissom (one of the Mercury astronauts who died on the launchpad in 1967) designed what would become HOTAS controllers 40 years later -- they were PILOTS not a monkey trained to simply push buttons. They demanded to fly like pilots they were and wanted their hot stick even in space to dock and land.

Simulators get pricey in living the space fantasy of being a fighter pilot in space!!! Those systems run around $350.

I would LOVE to have one of those controllers to move in games it would be so much more comfortable than keyboards (vertical stick with a hand rest and thumb rest!), but the price is more than $150 for the system. I'm not going to suggest that just because that's perfect for me only. This isn't like an ADA requirement to just get outside or inside a building or to use a restroom, there's other options even for the disabled and MUCH cheaper.

THIS suggestion is like equating ESAs with ADA protected service dogs (because they can take their dogs with them, we can too). From it's tone to the "logic" used ... which has little to do with actual disabilities itself. It's someone feeling entitled to want to play his way, even if it can damage his hand and HURT others.

I'm ALL for accessibility options, but don't make the mistake like some legislatures and "concerned citizens" made about disabled parking, either (not everyone has a VISIBLE disability, and those spots aren't JUST for wheelchair users [I detest a wheelchair symbol for disabilities as it teaches the general public wrongly about WHO qualifies]. It's for anyone with physical disabilities, overall. Be it a heart or lung patient that walking 200ft is a chore; to the guy in a splint; to the person with MS [a condition that even goes in remission]).

Be NICE that developers would have all the features in games for the disabled, but be practical, too. Kids are mostly making video games for kids LIKE THEM, and they're usually not disabled (because studios hire like kind -- WHY gaming is so male dominated. It was nothing for Blizzard to add the color blind options into the game. Because a color blind programmer at the studio could code it. Now try to do the same for EVERY disability.................... some they aren't even aware of and even designing for "fun", but can damage people's hands, too [i.e., those feedback controls that "rumble" on controllers]).

I played Steel Battalion back in the day so I understand how a peripheral can make or break an experience, but Warframe had NEVER needed this and given how the Tiberon Prime works we know that there is an easy solution that would only require minor tweaks to keep it balanced.

What's worse is that DE made the console UI 10x worse with a controller. It's slow, unresponsive, shortcuts were removed, it doesn't snap-to top options when changing menus, etc. DE is literally clueless when it comes to optimizing a controller. I have to reassign multiple inputs to even mimic what a PC player can do and even then I'm still gimped because I have to combine inputs like interact and reload which creates a ton of problems on its own, or drop limited inputs like switch shoulder.

I could create a 20 page document covering most of the problems DE has created with their new UI and they insist on preventing custom configurations for archwing, kdrives, allowing alt fire to be a toggle only (pandero and euphona highlights this), etc. They simply don't put any value in controller support and they certainly are not trying to accommodate players that use a controller by giving them a limited burst fire option for dual semi auto weapons. I doubt they even understand why a 10+ rate of fire semi-auto is a problem since PC players can use a macro, just like they have been doing with melee slide attacks. Sorry for ranting but let's not pretend this problem is new or limited. DE has been ignoring controller support for years.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

I played Steel Battalion back in the day so I understand how a peripheral can make or break an experience, but Warframe had NEVER needed this and given how the Tiberon Prime works we know that there is an easy solution that would only require minor tweaks to keep it balanced.

What's worse is that DE made the console UI 10x worse with a controller. It's slow, unresponsive, shortcuts were removed, it doesn't snap-to top options when changing menus, etc. DE is literally clueless when it comes to optimizing a controller. I have to reassign multiple inputs to even mimic what a PC player can do and even then I'm still gimped because I have to combine inputs like interact and reload which creates a ton of problems on its own, or drop limited inputs like switch shoulder.

I could create a 20 page document covering most of the problems DE has created with their new UI and they insist on preventing custom configurations for archwing, kdrives, allowing alt fire to be a toggle only (pandero and euphona highlights this), etc. They simply don't put any value in controller support and they certainly are not trying to accommodate players that use a controller by giving them a limited burst fire option for dual semi auto weapons. I doubt they even understand why a 10+ rate of fire semi-auto is a problem since PC players can use a macro, just like they have been doing with melee slide attacks. Sorry for ranting but let's not pretend this problem is new or limited. DE has been ignoring controller support for years.

Then mail DE your 20 pages of ideas.

In the mean time, learn personal responsibility, too! You won't get CTS if you break bad behaviors. It's on YOU to prevent such injuries, too.

When my affected hand HURTS from overuse, I stop playing and go watch a movie, instead. Not blame an entire industry.

You know you can take a break. You know what can cause CTS. Now take personal responsibility.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Kevyne_Kicklighter

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

22 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

And around and around it goes: no personal responsibility, even.

Meanwhile, the disabled want to get this across as "help" even...

 

Haha, I just don't use the weapon because I completely realize I am losing ~50% of its potential. Still, having a burst mode that fires a single shot from each weapon per input reduces the required inputs by half and retains the semi-auto characteristic since each weapon only fires a single shot. But you keep thinking that not using a weapon is superior to a well implemented feature since I'm taking responsibility or whatever that means.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

8 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Then mail DE your 20 pages of ideas.

In the mean time, learn personal responsibility, too! You won't get CTS if you break bad behaviors. It's on YOU to prevent such injuries.

I have taken steps to prevent injury. I use analog extenders since the dualshock has the shortest ones I've ever used. I use custom controls (first on the PS4 and then in-game once remapping was made possible, but still has a ways to go). I use specific frames/weapons and avoid others since they are tedious at best (Octavia's cloak is really bad on consoles which is why you rarely see her played despite being one of the strongest frames in the game; Loki is just easier to use). But at some point I can't overcome bad game design and DE needs to step up and make the game work on a controller, not only those that have custom macros.

[Peter]

@[DE]Steve how about the idea? some option im menu to turn all wapons auto is good for accessibility, there's a lot of weapon that I do not use just because it's semi-automatic, tendinitis is serious and different from other games here you face thousands of hordes on a mission, I think this option would help a lot.

And anyway some use macro to make them automatic, I see no reason to make this available to everyone, it's not something that encourages afk gaming.

[MPonder]

@Peter No, all no. If something like this is implemented, I'd like to not interfere with primary and secondary at the same time.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

46 minutes ago, MPonder said:

@Peter No, all no. If something like this is implemented, I'd like to not interfere with primary and secondary at the same time.

The easiest solution is to allow non-auto weapons to have alternate fire modes similar to the Tiberon Prime. The only change that needs to be made at menu level is to allow alt fire to be a toggle only, so instead of firing the weapon it simply switches modes and you fire it with the normal input. This would be fantastic for the pandero and euphona prime as examples.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 hour ago, Peter said:

@[DE]Steve how about the idea? some option im menu to turn all wapons auto is good for accessibility, there's a lot of weapon that I do not use just because it's semi-automatic, tendinitis is serious and different from other games here you face thousands of hordes on a mission, I think this option would help a lot.

And anyway some use macro to make them automatic, I see no reason to make this available to everyone, it's not something that encourages afk gaming.

Have you ever fired a .45 or .44? Making those sidearms automatic it would be impossible to control.

People like them semi-auto for reasons. The military went with the 9mm despite it's stopping power because it COULD fire automatically and hit a target. But a .45 or a .44 in auto mode, it's completely uncontrollable. The blowback is ROUGH.

But that's what those owners LIKE about those weapons. You KNOW when it's fired and you KNOW the results of ONE shot would do!

That's why weapons are designed the way they are. The FEEL of them for the "reward" of the outcome.

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

A $150 solution isn't a real solution, it's an incredibly expensive workaround.  At this point you're just trolling if you really feel that buying a peripheral is somehow better than allowing players to control the firing mode. Entitled indeed.

Wow.  I'm being called entitled because I take it upon myself to have a comfortable gaming experience.  You might need to go back and look up what entitled actually means.  This is the second time you've failed to do proper research while quoting me.  

Now let's compare something for a sec.  People go out and buy gaming keyboards and gaming mice each of which can be $100 a piece.  Let's just do an average total for both devices at about $170.  If player are already paying this much for gaming peripherals and even more than that on racing wheels/flight sticks, then a $150 durable controller isn't outrageous as you're trying to make it out to be.  

if you want the extra bells and whistles, then it's not going to be cheap regardless of what you prefer to use.  

Edited January 8, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[Rakosta_Kai]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

The easiest solution is to allow non-auto weapons to have alternate fire modes similar to the Tiberon Prime. The only change that needs to be made at menu level is to allow alt fire to be a toggle only, so instead of firing the weapon it simply switches modes and you fire it with the normal input. This would be fantastic for the pandero and euphona prime as examples.

That's not the only change that would need to be made.

It's also not the only change that occurs on the Tiberon Prime.

But let's say a change was made and DE left all -as is with no changes to anything other than just adding full auto mode at ~7 rounds per second.

...Well you'd have what basically amounts to a  Akstilletto Prime.

That's underestimating a bit as it would actually be considerably stronger than the Akstilleto Prime.

 

 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

That's not the only change that would need to be made.

It's also not the only change that occurs on the Tiberon Prime.

But let's say a change was made and DE left all -as is with no changes to anything other than just adding full auto mode at ~7 rounds per second.

...Well you'd have what basically amounts to a  Akstilletto Prime.

That's underestimating a bit as it would actually be considerably stronger than the Akstilleto Prime.

 

 

Obviously balance changes would need to be added, again, just like the Tiberon Prime. I didn't mention them since they are mostly a tangent but you have reduced accuracy, increased recoil, lower crit/status chance as the rate of fire increases. DE could even add a slight delay so that using the auto mode is only 80-90% efficient, which is still a huge improvement over the current scenario.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

1 hour ago, DatDarkOne said:

Wow.  I'm being called entitled because I take it upon myself to have a comfortable gaming experience.  You might need to go back and look up what entitled actually means.  This is the second time you've failed to do proper research while quoting me.  

Now let's compare something for a sec.  People go out and buy gaming keyboards and gaming mice each of which can be $100 a piece.  Let's just do an average total for both devices at about $170.  If player are already paying this much for gaming peripherals and even more than that on racing wheels/flight sticks, then a $150 durable controller isn't outrageous as you're trying to make it out to be.  

if you want the extra bells and whistles, then it's not going to be cheap regardless of what you prefer to use.  

I used entitlement because you seem set on telling me how I should be forced to play the game. It would be like you telling me that to get the best healthcare I just need to go to the best neighborhood, even though it is 2 hours from where I live. It's entitlement because you feel you have the right to play comfortably by using an expensive peripheral while the rest of us are just doing it wrong even though we have no available alternative (other than not using the weapon). I don't want special treatment, I want a solution that is available to everyone, especially those that can't afford a controller that costs more than 50% of the console's price.

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Hiero_Glyph said:

I used entitlement because you seem set on telling me how I should be forced to play the game.

DE is forcing you to play the game their way. Are you going to argue DE is wrong in doing that, too?

You won't find ANY online game then to your liking!

There's only so much entitlement any game can tolerate, as it interferes in making and maintaining a game.