Nyx rework 1.5 (More to Psychic themed)

[XenMaster]

Saw that developer workshop.

 

At maxed rank, Psychic Bolts can strip armor and shield up to 80% with 100% strength.

 

When i calculate it, we only need Intensify mod (130% strength) to reach above 100% armor/shield strip (104% to be exact).

 

So its like Seeking Shuriken of Ash warframe but better?

 

I used calculator app. My maths broke i think.

[Cubewano]

Aren't the numbers still in flux though? We don't know the armor stripping value for release. 

[trst]

Don't know what the exact values will be on release. But it should also be worth considering that even if it only takes one strength mod to cap the effect (which it could also just have a hard cap and never reach 100%) that Nyx has limited scaling with strength.

Unless the changes to mind control and Absorb are good enough to justify building strength on her then capping Bolts might not be all that worth it.

[Sailears]

I wonder how many targets it'll be able to hit, if they adjust that. They mentioned not wanting to have 2 spam to strip everything, but it seems inevitable with high efficiency and a tiny bit of power strength.

But maybe it's ok given how easily many other frames wipe the room by breathing, so maybe having Nyx present will mean for the most part that armour and shields will be trivialised, leaving only health to deal with.

Tbh that sounds acceptable for a support/debuff capability - make all the enemies weaker but still have to kill them with weapons or let them kill each other.

[XenMaster]

Reduced accuracy is her new rework. No, that shouldve been Mesa's or something else.

 

One thing i can think of is whenever enemies that "try" to fire or melee on Nyx, she passively cast single target Chaos on that enemy as counterattack.

 

It should similar to Dethcube Vaporize, enemy get too close get stunned.

 

So anyone attempt to shoot or melee Nyx get automatically go Chaos mode. But the passive duration should be lower than the original Chaos.

[peterc3]

3 hours ago, XenMaster said:

No, that shouldve been Mesa's or something else.

Gunslingers aren't known for dodging bullets. A mind controller making her targets not sure where she actually is is entirely within theme.

3 hours ago, XenMaster said:

So anyone attempt to shoot or melee Nyx get automatically go Chaos mode

If they're in melee range, they'll most likely target Nyx anyways. This would be useless.

[XenMaster]

13 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

Gunslingers aren't known for dodging bullets. A mind controller making her targets not sure where she actually is is entirely within theme.

If they're in melee range, they'll most likely target Nyx anyways. This would be useless.

So keep Misfire as her passive then?

[ArcKnight9202]

They could make it to where enemies hesitate upon engaging Nyx. That might be more interesting. I think giving the enemies Chaos effects would be way too good especially given range(not that I'd complain).

I think the new(suggested) passive is much worse than her current one. They should put it together with her current one if anything.

[Xzorn]

I don't recall hearing them mention her passive in the Devstream.

It might have been an oversight but hopefully they're putting more thought into it because reduced accuracy for Nyx is worse than her current one which works for herself, the team, objectives and fits her debuff 2nd ability better since Psychic Bolts has a fair chance of Disarming a target when multiple bolts land. It's around 15-20% per bolt.

There are quite a few enemies who are completely unaffected by reduced accuracy while disarming an enemy prevents them from using special abilities like throwing grenades, launching jet pack assaults and just generally disables some of the more dangerous attacks.

The concept of reducing accuracy to a frame that doesn't get shot unless she's too close is just kinda derp. I didn't see any disarms in the devstream example but I did note enemies just completely railing on the Sentinel. So if she does have the reduced accuracy active it doesn't help the Sentinel or anyone else and I've tested reduced Accuracy anyways. it does almost nothing, esp if you're close enough during Chaos to be getting shot at.

[kgabor]

So the new passive turns enemies into a stormtrooper.

Is that a Star Wars reference?

[NinjaZeku]

3 hours ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I think the new(suggested) passive is much worse than her current one. They should put it together with her current one if anything.

No thanks. Her current Passive is nonsensical and counterproductive.

As Nyx, you want enemies to either shoot each other or shoot your Absorb bubble,
not hit each other with little Nerf bats or whatever.

The worst is when you use Mind Control on, say, a juicy Bombard Eximus,
only to find out, lol whoops, your Passive just disarmed that Bombard.
Great, thanks DE, 10/10 would play Nyx again, yeah right.

[To say nothing of how something that triggers exclusively off of ability use
is not actually a Passive at all, but instead simply a feature of that ability.]

The new Passive is godlike in comparison. Even no Passive would've been an improvement,
but increased survivability when not stuck in Absorb, that's totally a thing Nyx can make use of.

Edited December 8, 2018 by NinjaZeku

[ArcKnight9202]

11 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

No thanks. Her current Passive is nonsensical and counterproductive.

As Nyx, you want enemies to either shoot each other or shoot your Absorb bubble,
not hit each other with little Nerf bats or whatever.

The worst is when you use Mind Control on, say, a juicy Bombard Eximus,
only to find out, lol whoops, your Passive just disarmed that Bombard.
Great, thanks DE, 10/10 would play Nyx again, yeah right.

[To say nothing of how something that triggers exclusively off of ability use
is not actually a Passive at all, but instead simply a feature of that ability.]

The new Passive is godlike in comparison. Even no Passive would've been an improvement,
but increased survivability when not stuck in Absorb, that's totally a thing Nyx can make use of.

We seem to play Nyx very differently so that might be why I disagree with you so much about her passive.

The suggested new passive contributes nothing to the survivability to you and your teammates by tearing firearms from the enemies. The new passive also works against enemies shooting Nyx's bubble by being less-able to target it effectively.

Their guns also offer absolutely pitiful damage. There is nothing romantic about them keeping their guns so melee is just as effective. When enemies approach each other in melee range, they are easier to take down as groups with abilities, AoE weapons, or punch-through. The new passive offers no such benefits.

The enemies have a much harder time shooting at you without guns. I'm not sure how an accuracy reduction will somehow be better than that. This also does nothing about things like Bombard rockets exploding nearby and killing you regardless. You could have possibly removed that launcher entirely with the current passive.

I'd wager heavily that the accuracy debuff will be minimal but I'd like to be wrong. However, then it works against Absorb even harder.

I'll give you the downsides. Working only on ability use is pretty crappy at times. It also does sting to lose a strong enemy's weapon after a Mind Control. However, their damage is still pathetic against their own kind so it's not the end of the world. The strong enemy is still removed from play against you and your team.

That's my take on it at least.

Edited December 9, 2018 by ArcKnight9202
clarification

[XenMaster]

13 hours ago, kgabor said:

So the new passive turns enemies into a stormtrooper.

Is that a Star Wars reference?

yes

[HolySeraphin]

1 hour ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

We seem to play Nyx very differently so that might be why I disagree with you so much about her passive.

The suggested new passive contributes nothing to the survivability to you and your teammates by tearing firearms from the enemies. The new passive also works against enemies shooting Nyx's bubble by being less-able to target it effectively.

Their guns also offer absolutely pitiful damage. There is nothing romantic about them keeping their guns so melee is just as effective. When enemies approach each other in melee range, they are easier to take down as groups with abilities, AoE weapons, or punch-through. The new passive offers no such benefits.

The enemies have a much harder time shooting at you without guns. I'm not sure how an accuracy reduction will somehow be better than that. This also does nothing about things like Bombard rockets exploding nearby and killing you regardless. You could have possibly removed that launcher entirely with the current passive.

I'd wager heavily that the accuracy debuff will be minimal but I'd like to be wrong. However, then it works against Absorb even harder.

I'll give you the downsides. Working only on ability use is pretty crappy at times. It also does sting to lose a strong enemy's weapon after a Mind Control. However, their damage is still pathetic against their own kind so it's not the end of the world. The strong enemy is still removed from play against you and your team.

That's my take on it at least.

The current passive is a chance to disarm an enemy when casting an ability. Not all enemies affected by Chaos are disarmed, I would say from experience that 3 out of 10 enemies are usually disarmed, and they are the ones that rush at their former comrades. And new casts don´t override those who are already under the effect of the same ability, which means spamming Chaos isn´t a thing if you wish to disarm an entire wave. Maybe they could have kept the disarming effect on Psychic bolts, I think this would be a good way to keep both sides happy.

If you use Chaos you shouldn´t even be near the enemies to begin with, you should stay away and kill them from afar. So a bombard shouldn´t be an issue, because he will be busy fighting the rest of the enemies. Yes, disarmed enemies do gather but as I said before, the chance is not 100%.

A disarmed mind-controlled target is way worse than you think, because they will rush at the enemy, which means that you will be targeted by other enemies that are comming from other directions. Also, a grinner using a knife is less useful than one wielding a rocket launcher, the latter does some CC with the explosion.

Also, the new passive is an accuracy debuff, this means that enemies will still shoot at your general direction, which means that Absorb will still get hit by general shots, especially if you build for range (which you should). The ones that will most likely have any significant difference are the corrupted corpus, because they use peojectile shotguns with a really large spread, but that´s it.

Edited December 9, 2018 by HolySeraphin

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

7 hours ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

We seem to play Nyx very differently so that might be why I disagree with you so much about her passive.

The suggested new passive contributes nothing to the survivability to you and your teammates by tearing firearms from the enemies. The new passive also works against enemies shooting Nyx's bubble by being less-able to target it effectively.

Their guns also offer absolutely pitiful damage. There is nothing romantic about them keeping their guns so melee is just as effective. When enemies approach each other in melee range, they are easier to take down as groups with abilities, AoE weapons, or punch-through. The new passive offers no such benefits.

The enemies have a much harder time shooting at you without guns. I'm not sure how an accuracy reduction will somehow be better than that. This also does nothing about things like Bombard rockets exploding nearby and killing you regardless. You could have possibly removed that launcher entirely with the current passive.

I'd wager heavily that the accuracy debuff will be minimal but I'd like to be wrong. However, then it works against Absorb even harder.

I'll give you the downsides. Working only on ability use is pretty crappy at times. It also does sting to lose a strong enemy's weapon after a Mind Control. However, their damage is still pathetic against their own kind so it's not the end of the world. The strong enemy is still removed from play against you and your team.

That's my take on it at least.

Disarming works against her kit because you want enemies shooting you or each other.  Reduced accuracy means nothing when you have absorb on because absorb has a big enough aoe to catch the bullets.  I agree that this new passive isn't the best.  but at least it's not actively harming her actual playstyle.

[kgabor]

A disarmed mob running into melee range always takes more aggro off you than a normal Chaos'd or Mind Controlled enemy.

Nyx was never meant to deal damage with abilities...

[HolySeraphin]

1 hour ago, kgabor said:

A disarmed mob running into melee range always takes more aggro off you than a normal Chaos'd or Mind Controlled enemy.

Nyx was never meant to deal damage with abilities...

Except that in normal missions, especially survival, there are enemies around every side of the map, which means that if your minion charge forward the enemies behind you will only focus on you.

And it is pretty common for psychic characters to use their minions to attack their enemies. It is the first thing that villains of many movies and TV series do, and in some cases the caster also empowers the minion to get an edge over the hero. Also, the core idea of Absorb is to kill enemies by acting as a bullet sponge and then releasing the damage to kill mobs.

Edited December 9, 2018 by HolySeraphin

[kgabor]

5 minutes ago, HolySeraphin said:

Except that in normal missions, especially survival, there are enemies around every side of the map, which means that if your minion charge forward the enemies behind you will only focus on you.

And it is pretty common for psychic characters to use their minions to attack their enemies. It is the first thing that villains of many movies and TV series do.

And that's why situational awareness is the skill Nyx players learn by playing the frame.

Psychic Bolts are great at disarming the enemies aggroing you if Chaos isn't enough, Absorb with the Assimilate augment and you're invulnerable and can use weapons and abilities.

Or just Mind Control a single enemy in the direction they're coming from, that can work too.

Edited December 9, 2018 by kgabor

[HolySeraphin]

Just now, kgabor said:

And that's why situational awareness is the skill Nyx players learn by playing the frame.

Psychic Bolts are great at disarming the enemies aggroing you if Chaos isn't enough, Absorb with the Assimilate augment and you're invulnerable and can use weapons and abilities.

Except that you still have to spam psychic bolts 3-4 times to have nearly guaranteed chance to disarm a group of 3-4 enemies, because the bolts only have a chance of disarming, and the bolts scatter to hit as many enemies as possible. If you cast it on a trio of enemies, it is very likely that each enemy will only get hit twice or that the bolts will focus more on one of them, leaving the rest armed. By the time you cast the ability for the third time you´re either dead or already killed the enemies (and yes, I´m considering that you used Chaos)

[ArcKnight9202]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Disarming works against her kit because you want enemies shooting you or each other.  Reduced accuracy means nothing when you have absorb on because absorb has a big enough aoe to catch the bullets.  I agree that this new passive isn't the best.  but at least it's not actively harming her actual playstyle.

Why would enemies firing at you and your team(assuming not solo) be a positive? Absorb on its own is really bad and is rarely used. At higher levels, the quantity of bullets renders accuracy nearly meaningless as damage scales high enough that almost anything is lethal. As someone that actually uses the EMP Aura, I can tell you, the Supras don't care.

Although not expressly stated, in several posts, it seems like it is assumed that literally everyone uses the Assimilate augment. I for one do not and have no problems with the game's content. I do not feel as if the current passive interferes with the gameplay at all.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

37 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

Why would enemies firing at you and your team(assuming not solo) be a positive? Absorb on its own is really bad and is rarely used. At higher levels, the quantity of bullets renders accuracy nearly meaningless as damage scales high enough that almost anything is lethal. As someone that actually uses the EMP Aura, I can tell you, the Supras don't care.

Although not expressly stated, in several posts, it seems like it is assumed that literally everyone uses the Assimilate augment. I for one do not and have no problems with the game's content. I do not feel as if the current passive interferes with the gameplay at all.

I don't account for team benefit.  And because absorb.  It's bad right now yes outside the augment.  But it does have it's niche use for a quick tap and CC or a way to "bubble" someone as they get revived.  AFAIK the way enemy AI works is you're not actually being shot at by all of them all at the same time.  Otherwise skills like mesmer skin would be eaten up instantly.  I am aware that some enemies literally do not give a heck about the accuracy debuffs.  And yes, in general disarms are more valuable.  I just think in nyx's case disarms are not wholly good for her considering her kit.  If you could disarm on a wide scale ala loki augment then yes it would be nice ish for her.  But in reality we're looking at maybe 3 disarms on average every chaos wave you do.  Which isn't super beneficial.  Especially if you're wanting specific targets for mind control.

I should note i'm not 100% behind the current nyx rework.  the armor strip on bolts is nice.  But I don't think it fits her and sort of feels like a cop out for a bad ability.  Yes it's augment was nice.  Yes it had some great niche uses.  But ultimately it was a poor damage ability that just didn't really belong.  I wish she had gotten a new ability entirely.  And while the new mind control interaction is great it's basically making her 1's augment redundant.  Sure you can probably combine it with it's new interaction for insane damage.  But i'm not fond of that.  I'd have rather her gained the ability to AoE mind control a small group by hold to cast.  Or some how be able to spread her mind control with her 1.

Chaos is alright.  I just wish it did more.  Or at least took her out of the equasion entirely as a target for chaosed enemies.  Absorb works but i've never personally liked the ability.  Basically she was the first frame I went for and I feel like her being the "psychic" frame she should be doing a bit more.  Her kit just feels underwhelming.  This rework deff makes her more user friendly and meta viable.  But it's not really addressing her core issue.  Or at least mine.  Which is thematically she's missing the mark by a lot.  And she needs a proper revisit.  Either to actually flesh her current theme out or to give her a new one.

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, HolySeraphin said:

And new casts don´t override those who are already under the effect of the same ability, which means spamming Chaos isn´t a thing if you wish to disarm an entire wave. Maybe they could have kept the disarming effect on Psychic bolts, I think this would be a good way to keep both sides happy.

 

This is actually no longer true.

In the past few months they changed the way Chaos is applied.

Now during the casting animation of Chaos the debuff is removed and applied again after the cast finishes. It's actually a pretty decent buff to Chaos as Natural Talent nearly removes a slight vulnerability point during casting when enemies can aggro you but all enemies in the area previously affected or new have Chaos applied at full duration.

Spamming Psychic bolts during a Chaos is a pretty common tactic while playing Nyx which tends to get around 50% of enemies disarmed. Disarmed enemies are not only disabled from their special abilities but they make it easier to prioritize which enemies to shoot as it's generally a game of distance. The disarmed enemy is generally the one you shoot last. Simple. Without disarm you must shoot the enemy closest to you vs other targets and creates more room for error.

Imagine playing Nyx in a situation where you 100% cannot get shot and then compare reduced Accuracy. It simply can't be better than Disarm because the only time Nyx gets shot is when the player misjudges something or makes a mistake. Disarm helps with that. Reduced Accuracy ( If it actually worked well ) is still just RNG dead when you make a mistake which you're more likely to do without disarmed enemies clumping into others.

Yes, Disarming a Mind Controlled target sucks if you wanted to use it for damage which is just now becoming possible but it's coming at the expense of Nyx's and her team's safety and Nyx being tied with Loki at the #1 spot for Solo / Team CC. I don't think that's worth the price. Just let Mind Control reset their guns or something. it's the only argument against her Disarm passive so they should just work around it rather than give her something worse or maybe just give her both. Neither is amazing.

[ArcKnight9202]

To get around disarming Mind Controlled targets, I always thought they could just add the check after the MC wore off instead of immediately. I'm not sure how that would interact with other abilities being applied first, however. Maybe give them back the gun? /shrug

Also, I'm not really wowed with these changes. It actually risks making the frame less fun to me. Speaking personally I don't need any kinds of debuffs. I already know Nyx doesn't offer that so my guns do the talking. I worry Psychic Bolts will just be a dead button to higher-end players. I'm still not certain if the radiation was removed or not. There are yet more issues, too.

Kudos for the discussion.

[XenMaster]

Aside with its low range scaling (10m base), getting corrosive from your team's attack against grineer might work? or does it need more dmg scaling?

[Xzorn]

15 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

Also, I'm not really wowed with these changes. It actually risks making the frame less fun to me. Speaking personally I don't need any kinds of debuffs. I already know Nyx doesn't offer that so my guns do the talking. I worry Psychic Bolts will just be a dead button to higher-end players. I'm still not certain if the radiation was removed or not. There are yet more issues, too.

 

Long as the bolts can scale to 100% with Power Strength it should be decent but Nyx going from 40% to 125% Power Strength is costly. If anything the ability to Disable Ancient Disruptor Auras is a decent replacement without investing Power Strength esp since the ability Duration reduction on their Auras still stacks for some ungodly reason. Rad procs were the way to deal with them since their stacking Auras could reduce Chaos down to a 1 second duration.

I went through the Devstream a few times yesterday and did not see any rad procs off Psychic Bolts but she might not need it as much.