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Seele

Fixing Mesa

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Preface

Mesa is one of my favorite Warframes. Her design (esp. Prime) is amazing and, in concept, she is an ideal expression of my playstyle. Having a dedicated gunfighter frame is a phenomenal idea... but she isn't a gunfighter frame. She's a caster frame. A press-4- everything-dies frame to clump in with the rest of them. It's nigh impossible to not be top kills, top damage as Mesa - and of course this is not the objective of the game, but as has been belabored while tuning Ember and Saryn and countless others throughout this game's storied history of balance, Warframe isn't fun when one person kills all the enemies. Sometimes even if you're the one killing them all. Any time I find myself playing Mesa, if I have the energy to ult (or even if I don't), doing anything else seems like such a waste of time. The most disciplined aim with the most powerful, rivened-out weapons pales so harshly in comparison to the auto-hit, devastating machine gun fire of the Regulators. Her ult is visually impressive. It's cool. It's insanely strong. But it's boring. You just hold the button and sweep the camera and Mesa does all the work. Is there some limited amount of appeal to this? Yes. The novelty wears off quickly though. At the end of the day she's another map nuke Warframe, and her old West aesthetic is contrary to her actual function. The fact that her auto-win spell is "gun" makes it no more engaging than any other.

Potential Fix - Make the Regulators a True Exalted Weapon

There are a number of ways Mesa could be brought to a more reasonable power level, maintain relevance in the game, and solidify her identity as a gunfighter Warframe. While Peacemaker is clearly the most problematic ability of hers, Ballistic Battery has a case for being relatively useless and Shatter Shield has a case for also being relatively broken.

Ideally, Peacemaker would be made like any other "exalted weapon" ability and simply allow Mesa to wield the Regulators for as long as she maintains the energy to do so. The Regulators could be made (or kept) ridiculously powerful to compensate for the loss of auto-aim and inhuman fire rate, and to reward steady aim and measured fire. But they would be aimed, fired, and reloaded as any other pair of pistols - you know, gunfighting.

Potential Fix 2 - Lower the Regulators' Fire Rate

But I also understand that the developers probably want to maintain the cinematic aspect of Peacemaker. So, I think it would not be unreasonable to dramatically lower the fire rate of the Regulators. As is, I can hold LMB and shred a Sortie-enhanced level 100+ eximus Nox into a gory puddle in seconds. The Nox, mind you, was specifically designed to make braindead strategies ineffective. His ridiculous armor values, life-threatening damage, and pronounced weakpoint several feet above the strike zone of Atterax slide attacks all make it clear that players falling asleep at the keyboard would have to move their cursors up and pop his head if they didn't want to get murdered. He hasn't entirely succeeded at his job, but this is an obvious case in which a total lack of precision is still disproportionately forgiven or rewarded. With a lower fire rate, the Regulators would probably take too long to kill a Nox, and he would have more time to advance and punish my laziness. I would still dispense incredibly high-powered shots at enemies indiscriminately, murdering masses of adds or taking down tougher, say, Heavy Gunners before they become threatening, but I wouldn't be able to wipe out everything including high leveled, souped-up enemies designed to beat 'strategies' like this. As an added bonus, slowing it down would make her badass "gun-fu" poses easier to appreciate, and may make each shot feel more individually powerful.

Addressing Her Identity as a "Gunfighter" Frame

Mesa's other abilities are... fine. Mostly. Her 2, Shooting Gallery, is a great, if somewhat unreliable, buff / debuff. As mentioned before, Shatter Shield is a bit strong for a not-tank Warframe with 95% damage mitigation being pretty easily attainable. Ballistic Battery is more often than not just a waste of energy, but its mechanics are cool. So this is my proposition:

1) Replace Ballistic Battery with an energy-based gun reload. Number of ways this could be implemented: a toggle that just enhances reload speed, a one-off activation that instantly reloads your gun, or a toggle that artificially extends your magazine with energy (think Quick Thinking). The latter two would be tricky to balance, however.

2) Rework Shatter Shield to recycle Ballistic Battery's mechanics - upon activation, you would have a short window in which to deal gun damage to charge your shield (like an inverse of Nyx's new Mind Control mechanics). The threshold could even be set fairly low and the same 95% mitigation attainable, but at least it wouldn't be instant nigh-invulnerability. There would be feelsbad moments when you die before charging your shield, sure, but that's kind of the point.

Both of these abilities would reward the player for doing gun stuff more than the current iterations of Ballistic Battery (which is most often used as an interspersed damage bonus during Peacemaker, if used at all) and Shatter Shield.

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Slow applause for this dude, he knows what's going on, hire him and game will be fixed in 3 months 👍
hire me and I make it 2, lolol
fire scott and it will never be broken again

 

1 hour ago, Seele said:

Having a dedicated gunfighter frame is a phenomenal idea... but she isn't a gunfighter frame. She's a caster frame. A press-4- everything-dies frame to clump in with the rest of them. It's nigh impossible to not be top kills, top damage as Mesa - and of course this is not the objective of the game, but as has been belabored while tuning Ember and Saryn and countless others throughout this game's storied history of balance, Warframe isn't fun when one person kills all the enemies. Sometimes even if you're the one killing them all. Any time I find myself playing Mesa, if I have the energy to ult (or even if I don't), doing anything else seems like such a waste of time.

Znalezione obrazy dla zapytania applause gif

1 hour ago, Seele said:

Potential Fix - Make the Redeemers a True Exalted Weapon

In this case I would add maybe a little bit of salvo autoaim on at least last combo attacks.

But yes, in perfect world where DE didn't got lazy...

47 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Don’t fix what ain’t broken.

You right, don't touch Garuda, but we talk about Mesa here.

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I'll put it in plain english....if Mesa gets changed and I don't love the changes from day 1. I will uninstall this game and never touch it again -.-. You might feel the gameplay of Mesa is stale, that doesn't mean everyone does. AoE frames have a much easier time beating mesa on damage numbers and killing potential in just about every situation except the most high level content where Mesa is really the only frame that pump out enough damage to matter anyway. Mesa's kit is built to deliver damage and she does that perfectly fine imo. I personally don't want a change but again if change happens because I don't make those calls and it isn't fun anymore I will straight up stop playing because Mesa is one of the few reasons I even still play this game since I've done just about everything else.

As for your "if I don't have energy I don't feel like I am doing anything" comment....how about you start shooting things with those 2 guns you brought along >.> it's what I do.

::edit:: I just actually read the changes you are proposing as well.....just no....get out....

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I would simply narrow the field on the auto-target to actually increase player input. 

Another option would be to press the button mapped to aiming, to acquire a target, press again to go to the next. 

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I think I'd like something closer to your vision of Mesa better than what we've got.  But...

8 hours ago, Seele said:

. . .she isn't a gunfighter frame. She's a caster frame

She really popular the way she is, and people are invested in that identity.  I doubt anything as radical as your 1st potential fix would ever happen.   Even the second one seems unlikely.

The rest probably has a better chance, although I'd expect you'll still get resistance.  But dang, your version of Shattershield would make Mesa  much more entertaining for somebody like me.  Really almost anything that makes her 2 and/or 3 more interactive, and her 1 more impactful would make me want to play her more.

PS. You should change "redeemers" to "regulators".

 

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6 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

But dang, your version of Shattershield would make Mesa  much more entertaining for somebody like me.  Really almost anything that makes her 2 and/or 3 more interactive, and her 1 more impactful would make me want to play her more.

PS. You should change "redeemers" to "regulators".

 

Thank you on both accounts, OP has been edited to fix this.

I appreciate everyone who has offered more grounded feedback than "no just get out" thus far. "Don't fix what isn't broken"... Mesa's pretty broken.

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3 hours ago, Seele said:

Mesa's pretty broken.

No she isn't. You know what frame/powers are broken though? Well DE can start with Octavia, Loki and Ash Invisibility that can effectively bypass any and all forms of this game. 

That said Mesa is one of the most balanced frames in the game. The End. 

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3 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

That said Mesa is one of the most balanced frames in the game. The End. 

lshidmtamsfo, gj

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Ah, I knew eventually one day Mesa would get popular enough for these kinda posts.

...lets just nerf Trinity a 7th time instead. That will fix the core flaws of the game I'm sure of it.

There's nothing wrong with Mesa's design other than her 1st being clunky. What's wrong is you're probably shooting at enemies I was shooting at with the original Soma 5 years ago when only one 60/60 status mod existed and there certainly weren't any Primed mods. 5 Years of Power Creep and same enemies. Guess what happens.

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23 hours ago, Seele said:

It's nigh impossible to not be top kills, top damage as Mesa

It's actually quite easy for Ivara to steal top damage from even Mesa.  All it takes is just one Artemis Bow shot either at a group of enemies or one Boss/mini-boss.  I do it all the time just to mess with people that try to go for top damage deal.  Mag is pretty good at stealing top damage too. 

As for getting top kills, Saryn is pretty much the queen of kill stealing.   😄  

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While I appreciate your passion, the title is pretty misleading. What you want an entirely new Warframe that just happens to look like Mesa. There's nothing about that that's a 'fix' and it's kind of strange for you to start off by saying that she's one of your favorite warframes and then from there go on to explain that you actually hate pretty much everything about her. It makes the whole post feel a bit disingenuous. 

10 hours ago, Seele said:

Mesa's pretty broken.

Is she? Or is she just not what you want to play? The main thrust of your OP regarding Mesa's playstyle seems to be that Mesa isn't the sort of Warframe you want to play, but instead of just finding one you do enjoy more you want Mesa to be entirely redesigned to suit your preferences, which is kind of a weird way to think about the game.

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mesa is very strong and works totally fine and thats been the case for a long time. rather than changing a frame thats absolutely fine it would be better to fix/buff those which are underperforming in comparison to the better frames.

the only change i would agree to would be for her 1. even at fully charged with a lot of power strenght that ability is hardly relevant and sometimes i dont even notice it dmg wise. only the SFX shows me that it actually works. BUT considering the strenght of her other abilities its not a big deal that her 1 is as it is.

so, same result in the end: shes totally fine imo.

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So turn her into a walking titania? Hek no. Mesa is a gunslinger in terms of how here abilites work and they all, save for peacemaker, enchance gun play.

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40 minutes ago, Elementalos said:

While I appreciate your passion, the title is pretty misleading. What you want an entirely new Warframe that just happens to look like Mesa. There's nothing about that that's a 'fix' and it's kind of strange for you to start off by saying that she's one of your favorite warframes and then from there go on to explain that you actually hate pretty much everything about her. It makes the whole post feel a bit disingenuous. 

Is she? Or is she just not what you want to play? The main thrust of your OP regarding Mesa's playstyle seems to be that Mesa isn't the sort of Warframe you want to play, but instead of just finding one you do enjoy more you want Mesa to be entirely redesigned to suit your preferences, which is kind of a weird way to think about the game.

Underhanded argumentation 101: Start off by expressing an unproven claim implicitly, rather than proving it explicitly, pushed forward as if already established in order to subvert any attempts of argumentation against a potentially faulty premise... One which the rest of your argument or your proposed measures hinge on.

The idea is to keep people arguing around the changes themselves and try to block people from questioning whether said changes are really needed to begin with. If it seems disingenuous, well... That's because it is. Good on you for noticing something was funny here.👍

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The only change that mesa needs IMO its to make her 2 and 3 duration's the same, like on mirage or chroma.

Aside of that, im absolutly fine with her kit, her ult its one of the few "ability weapons" that gives you a reazon to NOT stay with it active forever and instead turn it on and off to manage energy and mobility making you use your weapons instead of completly removing them.

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All I want to see is for her 1 to be made more interesting/useful.

Maybe instead of bonus damage for a single shot, you are instead charging for a period of %damage increase and improve reload speed/instant reload/infinite ammo? Would probably need a cap and/or timer for the build phase to balance, but I would probably be using it a lot more often than I do now... which is never.

1 hour ago, KittySkin said:

The only change that mesa needs IMO its to make her 2 and 3 duration's the same, like on mirage or chroma.

Aside of that, im absolutly fine with her kit, her ult its one of the few "ability weapons" that gives you a reazon to NOT stay with it active forever and instead turn it on and off to manage energy and mobility making you use your weapons instead of completly removing them.

Well, until you equip the exilus slot augment. Granted, that doesn't give her the mobility to be in Peacemaker *all* the time, but there is a reason that was what everyone wanted the augment to be.

I wouldn't cry if Mesa's kit got tweaked so that Peacemaker got used less, but at the same time, there are probably two or three other 'frames that need a loving tap from the nerf bat before you come to her.

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6 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Ah, I knew eventually one day Mesa would get popular enough for these kinda posts.

...lets just nerf Trinity a 7th time instead. That will fix the core flaws of the game I'm sure of it.

There's nothing wrong with Mesa's design other than her 1st being clunky. What's wrong is you're probably shooting at enemies I was shooting at with the original Soma 5 years ago when only one 60/60 status mod existed and there certainly weren't any Primed mods. 5 Years of Power Creep and same enemies. Guess what happens.

Well, making her 1 useful would help a lot, but I can't say nothing else is wrong with her design when the most interesting thing her 2 and 3 bring to her  gameplay is  keeping track of their timers.

 

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1 hour ago, Foefaller said:

Well, until you equip the exilus slot augment. Granted, that doesn't give her the mobility to be in Peacemaker *all* the time, but there is a reason that was what everyone wanted the augment to be.

That augment's always been outperformed by another mod that every frame has had access to for a long time.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Streamlined_Form

latest?cb=20171007154911

The grand irony is that Waltz Mesa is more of a stationary turret than with Streamlined Form due to the mechanics at work.

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1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Well, making her 1 useful would help a lot, but I can't say nothing else is wrong with her design when the most interesting thing her 2 and 3 bring to her  gameplay is  keeping track of their timers.

 

Lazy design for lazy people.(͡ ͡° ͜ つ ͡͡°)

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4 minutes ago, Critiamat said:

Lazy design for lazy people.(͡ ͡° ͜ つ ͡͡°)

Abilities can be pretty lazy, afaic.  (If you want my credentials, I loved Nezha - before - his rework. 😛 )  But if they barely reward user input / strategy / skill at all, and especially when there's more than one like that on a frame, that's not lazy design. It's lack of design.

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Don't blame the Frame for the game's problems. Mesa is NOT that powerful a frame. If you look at her stats, she has less dps potential that ember (keep in mind that i say ember, not world on fire. WoF is not the best way to play her). So why is she so effective? Her dps is decent, but her effective dps is insane. Why?

If i had a weapon that dealt 1 million damage and fired 1 bullet a second, i'd have 1 million dps. Let's say i used that gun on 10 enemies with 5k health each.  If i killed each with every shot, which takes 1 second per bullet, my effective dps isn't 1 million,  it's only 5k, because it took 1 second to destroy 5k of health. Who cares about the damage number, that's just a vacuum stat lol? Now,  let me pull out a mediocre aimbot.  We'll call this placeholder Mcree. Each bullet Mcree fires deals 20k damage and fires at 20 rounds per second. Logically, mcree's dps is only 400k, not even half of my first weapon, but because his damage is still more than the enemy's health, he can kill all 10 in half a second. His effective dps is 100k, 20x the effective dps of the first gun.

What's the moral here?  Mesa is not that strong, she's just optimized for the current state of the game. We need stronger enemies. We're fighting tissue paper, which die so easily, that frames with lower dps are doing better than higher dps frames in the role of dps, only because of their mechanics. Don't blame the frame for the game's problems. She is designed as a fodder killer. She kills fodder enemies really quickly while others deal with tougher enemies. In a game were every enemy is basically fodder compared to us, it is only logical that she'd do really really well.

Also, her 1 is really really good, you just have adjust to it. You can't play it like peacemaker and expect the same result. It's a totally different ability with a different playstyle.

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il y a 51 minutes, (PS4)Crixus044 a dit :

She is designed as a fodder killer. She kills fodder enemies really quickly while others deal with tougher enemies. In a game were every enemy is basically fodder compared to us, it is only logical that she'd do really really well.

Also, her 1 is really really good, you just have adjust to it. You can't play it like peacemaker and expect the same result. It's a totally different ability with a different playstyle.

The problem is that we overscaled content so hard her original "fast fodder clean" became "cleans everything in sight that isn't invulnerable". 

That said, imo her 1 still need to be brought up to speed. The ability is great but it's clunky as heck to use and is unaffected last time i tried by both punchthrough and multishot. Even just making punchthrough work, or making the shot gain punchthrough would be great. 

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Honestly this is how I think Mesa was designed...

-OK, so let's make gunfighter frame, like John Wick and John Preston (Equilibrium) mashed together with a little bit of Clint Eastwood western theme, and of course female because waifu material.
-Cool, awesome, registered losers players are gonna love this! So, what about abilities? What's her 1?
-Hmm, how about you deal more damage after you deal damage?
-Ok, we will think about something, what's her 2?
-You deal more damage.
-OOOOooooo... K, how about 3?
-You TAKE less damage.
-Fine... and her 4?
-You know how in these movies gunslingers always make these sick poses and never miss?
-Oh, so we're gonna make some dual "gunblade" exalted weapon with badass stance? Or she could enter trance to mark enemies and then shoot them all, like McCree.
-Nah, just press 4 and murder all, with sick poses ofc, and dude, Overwatch is not even out yet.
-But how about...
-damage.
-Maybe...
-Damage.
-And what if...
-DAMAGE.
-So we are gonna make frame that 1,2,3's are buffs and fourth is just afk turret mode?
-Yes.
-How anyone could ever enjoy that? This doesn't even have a playstyle, just mash all buttons whenever enemy is nearby. Fine. -__- why are we even hired you
-If you really want we can add to 2 and 3 some not useful stuff that will be barely noticable.

And then Peacemaker was reworked to it's current state.

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On 2018-12-25 at 6:39 PM, Seele said:

Ballistic Battery is more often than not just a waste of energy, but its mechanics are cool. So this is my proposition:

1) Replace Ballistic Battery with an energy-based gun reload. Number of ways this could be implemented: a toggle that just enhances reload speed, a one-off activation that instantly reloads your gun, or a toggle that artificially extends your magazine with energy (think Quick Thinking). The latter two would be tricky to balance, however.

This is what I was hoping someone would bring up. In testing, to setup Mesa's Ballistic Battery suffers from the follow flaws:

  • You deal more damage continuously firing in the time it takes to cast the animation
  • You won't remember to recast it
  • The amount of damage is capped at a marginal capacity which at most doubles damage on next shot making snipers the only viable option
  • Double casting (charged->active->recast) removes the charge but continue to drain your energy
  • I missed

What I also thought was a good mechanic was toggle instant reload at a fixed cost per second mitigated from the weapon. After reading OP, a one-off isn't that great due to my aforementioned likelihood the casting animation (break from concentrate firing) takes more time than to auto reload since you're more conscious of the reload timing. However, something like instant reload+vectis would be disgustingly overpowered.

I also think that an interesting and unique mechanic for her would be to outright change the ability to "Ballistic Belt" and have all reserve ammo ready to fire and (The ammo would be properly distributed upon expiration as if the user had reloaded). This would be a fun unique mechanic (hinting towards her Peace Makers similar infinite ammo pool) that adds reasonable value (setting burst dps to sustained dps), scales with all weapons (not just snipers), and gives a reason to mod for max ammo. A neat artistic effect would be to have Mesa sling an "exalted ammo belt" around her left shoulder as the casting animation, and the belt depletes in length as a timer/ammo drains to 0.

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