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Seele

Fixing Mesa

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15 hours ago, Elementalos said:

While I appreciate your passion, the title is pretty misleading. What you want an entirely new Warframe that just happens to look like Mesa. There's nothing about that that's a 'fix' and it's kind of strange for you to start off by saying that she's one of your favorite warframes and then from there go on to explain that you actually hate pretty much everything about her. It makes the whole post feel a bit disingenuous. 

Is she? Or is she just not what you want to play? The main thrust of your OP regarding Mesa's playstyle seems to be that Mesa isn't the sort of Warframe you want to play, but instead of just finding one you do enjoy more you want Mesa to be entirely redesigned to suit your preferences, which is kind of a weird way to think about the game.

Is balance not a labor of love? If you would like an example of a Warframe I dislike, look for any of them that I've never said anything about. The reason I take umbrage with her current state is because she's one of my favorites. But she's a missed opportunity. She doesn't reflect the original goal of the design. Mesa is a 'gunfighter' frame in appearance only, and while a fair amount of warframes are decent for a gunplay focus - hell, the argument could be made that any frame is acceptable for gunplay - as I understood it, Mesa was the answer to a community plea for a gun-focused frame.

I don't hate any one thing about Mesa. I recognize balance problems with her. In her current state she isn't exactly what I'd like her to be, but I still play her. I just also know that she can more genuinely reflect the developers' intentions than she does. None of my proposed changes would radically change her playstyle for anyone but the people who quite literally only use her 4 as a map clear, and those are not the kinds of people who should be considered in discussions of balance, so calling this a "total redesign" is an unwarranted leap.

Breaking from the quoted post at this point: Any time playing a frame compels you to press one button and one button only, the frame is not tuned well. The 1 is useless and the 4 is overpowered. There are arguments before this claiming that she's a fodder-cleaner. Please explain the sortie enhanced level 100+ eximus Nox. That's about as powerful as enemies get in practicality, outside of deep endless and the Simulacrum. Of course she's designed to deal damage. And of course she's very good at it. Because she's too good at it.

I'll also not allow any moving of the goalposts about "buff the weaker frames instead" or "Saryn is more of a problem" or "Ember can do more damage." The slippery slope fallacy that rises every time someone recommends a well-placed nerf is that buffing every weaker frame instead would be preferable. Warframe already has a ridiculously high power ceiling and no enemies to match it. We are too strong for the game we're playing. This 'solution' is laughably misguidedYes, there are frames that need buffs. Yes, there are other frames that need nerfs. But Mesa is topical now, her Prime just came out, so now is the time to open discussion about her because she's seeing a sudden spike in usage.

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There's nothing to fix. She functions perfectly fine and there are a few warframes that out damage and out tank her rather easily. The only ability sh has that I would say needs adjusting is her 1. If you just want her regulators to function as regular dual pistols then just go get an actual pair of dual pistols. Exalted weapons don't need to function just like their normal weapon counterpart otherwise they end up just being lackluster weapons like Wukong's staff. Overall this is completely unnecessary.

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34 minutes ago, MickThejaguar said:

There's nothing to fix. She functions perfectly fine and there are a few warframes that out damage and out tank her rather easily. The only ability sh has that I would say needs adjusting is her 1. If you just want her regulators to function as regular dual pistols then just go get an actual pair of dual pistols. Exalted weapons don't need to function just like their normal weapon counterpart otherwise they end up just being lackluster weapons like Wukong's staff. Overall this is completely unnecessary.

Which is why I offered several different fixes beyond making them function like another pair of pistols.

Beyond that, were they to become exalted weapons like the others, that does not necessarily relegate them to being glorified Akvasto. Excalibur's blade is not just a Skana, is it? DE is nothing if not creative. They could think of something to make them special, I'm sure. But hopefully something that requires actual input from the player.

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8 hours ago, Autongnosis said:

The problem is that we overscaled content so hard her original "fast fodder clean" became "cleans everything in sight that isn't invulnerable". 

That said, imo her 1 still need to be brought up to speed. The ability is great but it's clunky as heck to use and is unaffected last time i tried by both punchthrough and multishot. Even just making punchthrough work, or making the shot gain punchthrough would be great. 

It doesn't work with multishot, neither does volt passive. It also doesn't work with punch through ONLY ON HITSCAN. On projectile weapons, it does work with punch through. It is not clunky if played right, which i admit isn't easy, but i recommend practice and try different combos. I got my combo and never looked at peacemaker again lol

The content in this game is unbearably low level compared to our frames. If we had stronger enemies (and i mean much stronger) you'd see peacemakers falling off 1 by 1. Peacemaker has an average dps of 500k. If i optimized it for certain combos, i could bump it up to maybe 900k, but this is still lower than what a chroma with a vectis prime can do at base (body shot-no combo counter included, i get 1 million. Optimized, i can jump to 23 million on headshots with 4x combo).

The issue is that I only see maybe level 70 at the most from most missions. And most enemies in that mission have around 7k health with armor stopping only 16% of corrosive or radiation damage (unless you got corpus, which is 0), so that dps is completely worthless, because the enemy is so weak, and i can only shoot around 4 bullets a second, while Mcree over here has 15k damage per bullet, 10k being elemental, which is more than enough to 1 shot all the enemies and he's firing at 37 bullets per second. He's gonna win, hands down. The enemies would need at least 180k Hp to even come close to turning the tables, which you can get at level 300 for most enemies. 

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1 hour ago, Seele said:

Is balance not a labor of love?

She isn't unbalanced. Once again, there are frames that can out damage her by a wide margin.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

In her current state she isn't exactly what I'd like her to be

This is actually your problem. She isn't 100% what you want. 

1 hour ago, Seele said:

None of my proposed changes would radically change her playstyle for anyone but the people who quite literally only use her 4 as a map clear, and those are not the kinds of people who should be considered in discussions of balance, so calling this a "total redesign" is an unwarranted leap.

This is a loaded one. Firstly, nobody uses her map clear, there are other frames that do it far better than her. Secondly, one of your proposed changes was for her Regulators to be changed into a typical Exalted weapon, by which I'm assuming you mean for her Regulators to function as standard dual pistols. This absolutely would change her gameplay as the ability would function completely differently than the way it did before. Like it's cool if you like your ideas and all but to say that they aren't a radical shift in gameplay is just a lie. The point of this entire post is specifically to change her gameplay.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

Any time playing a frame compels you to press one button and one button only, the frame is not tuned well.

I have never been compelled to only use my regulators with Mesa because I need Shooting Gallery and Shatter Shield for CC and Survivability at high levels.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

The 1 is useless and the 4 is overpowered.

Yes and no. Her 4 is not as overpowered as you claim it is. 

1 hour ago, Seele said:

There are arguments before this claiming that she's a fodder-cleaner.

Well that's just wrong.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

Please explain the sortie enhanced level 100+ eximus Nox. That's about as powerful as enemies get in practicality, outside of deep endless and the Simulacrum. Of course she's designed to deal damage. And of course she's very good at it. Because she's too good at it.

At levels that high, being one-shot is fairly possible, even with 95% DR. So either you need to be able to kill the enemy quickly (Mesa), CC them long enough to kill them (Mag, Harrow), or be an unkillable god king that's tanky enough withstand their damage (Inaros, Nidus). 

 

1 hour ago, Seele said:

I'll also not allow any moving of the goalposts about "buff the weaker frames instead" or "Saryn is more of a problem" or "Ember can do more damage." The slippery slope fallacy that rises every time someone recommends a well-placed nerf is that buffing every weaker frame instead would be preferable.

Well you wouldn't need to buff very many DPS frames to be in line with Mesa because most of them out damage her. Also you're not really using the slippery slope fallacy correctly here. The fallacy in question refers to when someone says that allowing one thing to happen will inevitably lead to another thing happening, and the person being fallacious in the scenario would be the person stating such an inevitability will happen, which is you in this situation. So unless you're admitting to being fallacious, I don't think you're quite understanding that right.

1 hour ago, Seele said:

Warframe already has a ridiculously high power ceiling and no enemies to match it. We are too strong for the game we're playing. This 'solution' is laughably misguidedYes, there are frames that need buffs. Yes, there are other frames that need nerfs. But Mesa is topical now, her Prime just came out, so now is the time to open discussion about her because she's seeing a sudden spike in usage.

Actually we're not. The balancing in this game is much trickier than that. The problem with warframe isn't that we're too powerful for the game, it's that scaling is so out of whack that enemies are ridiculously underpowered until they suddenly hit a point where they one-shot us if they so much as cough on us. Warframe definitely needs some retuning in terms of balance but starting by nerfing the damage on a single DPS frame that isn't even close to the highest damage of all DPS frames is an awful solution. We need enemies that require smarter thinking at higher levels as opposed to enemies that just require you to either be nuke or bomb bunker to survive.

There are definitely balance changes that could be made to a lot of areas in warframe but it needs to start with enemy scaling first. 

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Mesa is fine as is and anything other then a change to her 1 would be a nerf. Keep her 2, 3, and 4 as is and just change ballistoc battery if your going to suggest any change to her at the very least.

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2 hours ago, MickThejaguar said:

We need enemies that require smarter thinking at higher levels as opposed to enemies that just require you to either be nuke or bomb bunker to survive.

Did you forget max alerted Orb Vallis existed?

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I have bot Mesa and Mesa Prime and I have to say say she is one of the mosy boring frames to play, imo. Her Shatter Shield is a ridiculous amount of damage reduction and her Peacemakers... jesus. She is super crazy powerful, and if that's the kind of game play people like, than great. I find her just too boring to use, i.e. cast 4 and murder everything and face tank anything else because of her 3 (for the most part) I guess her lack of mobility (or limited mobility with Waltz) with her 4 and the fact it smears anything in its way just makes her less engaging for me. 

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11 minutes ago, z3us32610 said:

I have bot Mesa and Mesa Prime and I have to say say she is one of the mosy boring frames to play, imo. Her Shatter Shield is a ridiculous amount of damage reduction and her Peacemakers... jesus. She is super crazy powerful, and if that's the kind of game play people like, than great. I find her just too boring to use, i.e. cast 4 and murder everything and face tank anything else because of her 3 (for the most part) I guess her lack of mobility (or limited mobility with Waltz) with her 4 and the fact it smears anything in its way just makes her less engaging for me. 

try to take away peoples aimbot and they will just be mad. a viral spec regulator pistols will just destroy anything it touches and people know this. aimbot gimmick needs to go.

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On 2018-12-27 at 12:38 AM, XaoGarrent said:

That augment's always been outperformed by another mod that every frame has had access to for a long time.

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Streamlined_Form

 

The grand irony is that Waltz Mesa is more of a stationary turret than with Streamlined Form due to the mechanics at work.

Yeah uhhh.  Nah.  You're still dealing with a pull out animation even with faster holster rate.  Waltz lets you fire instantly.  And no.  You WANT to move around in waltz because that movement impacts your targeting circle size.  Waltz is still better.  This mod just enables fun with sliding and activating.  Which is cool  but does not outshine the benefits of waltz that I mentioned.

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I don't think any of her abilities need touching sans her 4.  Sure, you have people that will go around and spam her 4 only.  But I would say that it's a bit incorrect to say her kit revolves around her 4 or encourages heavy use of her 4.  Her two and 3 encourage gunplay along side benefitting her 4 usage.  Her shooting gallery with augment is 2 layers of cc.  The cc on jamming weapons and the blind on switching between her and her allies.  And her 3's augment is also more cc.  The issue is that her first ability isn't a very good ability.

This is because it's very easy to make it a poor damaging shot.  And it can miss.  It already works with her 4 and can be used to fire off during her 4 which is good.  But it just is too clunky for standard gun play.  I think it should be changed.  She gets like 5 or so seconds to deal damage.  Once that time is up the damage dealt will dictate how much extra status chance and crit chance she gets on her weapons.  And that buff would last x amount of seconds.  I wouldn't know what to change her augment to.  But the point is her 1 needs to benefit her gunplay more.

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8 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yeah uhhh.  Nah.  You're still dealing with a pull out animation even with faster holster rate.  Waltz lets you fire instantly.  And no.  You WANT to move around in waltz because that movement impacts your targeting circle size.  Waltz is still better.  This mod just enables fun with sliding and activating.  Which is cool  but does not outshine the benefits of waltz that I mentioned.

Waltz is utterly useless if you know how to parkour.

Holster rate effects weapon swap wholesale, meaning an already short animation gets reduced to almost nothing. Reactivating your 4 resets the targeting circle (meaning it only gets small when you're focusing fire). To make matters even worse Waltz causes Mesa in Peacemaker to experience hard falls, something she ordinarily doesn't do.

So nah. That mod is still head and shoulders better than Waltz. You just need to learn to parkour better.

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13 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Waltz is utterly useless if you know how to parkour.

Holster rate effects weapon swap wholesale, meaning an already short animation gets reduced to almost nothing. Reactivating your 4 resets the targeting circle (meaning it only gets small when you're focusing fire). To make matters even worse Waltz causes Mesa in Peacemaker to experience hard falls, something she ordinarily doesn't do.

So nah. That mod is still head and shoulders better than Waltz. You just need to learn to parkour better.

Faster is still not instant.  And i know how to parkour perfectly fine.  Me bullet jumping through the air doesn't make the pull out animation any less annoying.

"Only when you focus fire" is not a counter point to the benefit of being able to directly effect my reticle size without leaving my ult.

The only worthwhile benefit from this is it speeding up my normal weapon holstering.  Which the animation for doing so should be faster by defualt anyway.

 

If you prefer that mod then more power to you.  But don't be needlessly dismissive over such obvious benefits.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Faster is still not instant.  And i know how to parkour perfectly fine.  Me bullet jumping through the air doesn't make the pull out animation any less annoying.

"Faster is still not instant" doesn't address any of the problems with Waltz and why holster rate is just blatantly superior, and frankly you don't seem to parkour enough. Otherwise you wouldn't be making the claims you are. Or would you? I do find it very interesting that you specifically choose not to respond to the part that demonstrates your statement as questionable.

Waltz's benefits are minimal in the vast majority of real world use scenarios, and it comes with drawbacks that vastly outpace what you're getting. I'm not even going into the fact it also has a positive effect on the holster rate of other weapons, because at that point I'd just be beating a dead horse. You don't realize it, but you just threw leverage against your own position. Especially when you consider that one little corpus unit that's always such a pain in everyone's ass.

If you prefer that mod, more power to you. Errr... Y'know, that's a lie. Technically it's LESS power to you. But go ahead, nobody said you can't nerf yourself for fun. Or well... Hmm. Style? It's stylish I guess.

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10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

"Faster is still not instant" doesn't address any of the problems with Waltz and why holster rate is just blatantly superior, and frankly you don't seem to parkour enough. Otherwise you wouldn't be making the claims you are. Or would you? I do find it very interesting that you specifically choose not to respond to the part that demonstrates your statement as questionable.

Continually telling me i'm parkouring bad is a pretty flimsy defense.  I didn't respond to the hard fall animation point because I don't have a counter to it.  That is a downside.  But it's a downside I will gladly take over having to sit through a pull out animation everytime I want to use my peacemakers.  You didn't make any other problem claims iirc.  So if that's the one downside to keeping my reticle wide without leaving my 4 and having instant fire time than i'll take it.

10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

Waltz's benefits are minimal in the vast majority of real world use scenarios, and it comes with drawbacks that vastly outpace what you're getting. I'm not even going into the fact it also has a positive effect on the holster rate of other weapons, because at that point I'd just be beating a dead horse. You don't realize it, but you just threw leverage against your own position. Especially when you consider that one little corpus unit that's always such a pain in everyone's ass.

And faster holster time is an incredibly niche thing that doesn't give any hugely tangible benefits that a player would realistically notice on a day to day basis.  Yet here we are.  "im not going to even get into.."  You already mentioned it.  So saying as such is just fluffing your argument.

10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

If you prefer that mod, more power to you. Errr... Y'know, that's a lie. Technically it's LESS power to you. But go ahead, nobody said you can't nerf yourself for fun. Or well... Hmm. Style? It's stylish I guess.

Mhm.  If streamlined form was such a superior mod people would have picked it up ages ago and it would be shoved in min max builds.  We have several well known content creators that go out of their way to optimize and find any and every niche benefit that might be useful.  To the point that things like hand spring or arcane consequence get regular recomendations.  Mesa's waltz isn't exactly jumped at.  But it's recognized for the two benefits which are a different interaction with the reticle and the instant fire time.

Neither are absolutely game changing but exhalus mods are not supposed to be.  Yes you can play around mesa's default peace maker mechanics with specific mods without using waltz.  that's why the game is largely play the way you want to play.  My issue with your statement is your needless absolutism that basically has a talking down stance to the mod.  You're going out of your way to make the benefits look bad.  Your argument would have been more well received if you actually elaborated on why you liked the other mod more instead of just dumping on the mod you don't like.

 

I prefer Waltz over holster speed because I dip in and out of my 4 constantly.  And having to deal with that short pause time (no matter how short it can get) is annoying for my gameplay.  I have extensively played with mesa before I had Waltz where i'd slide into or bullet jump over an area when activating.  It helps midigate the animation.  But after actually playing with Waltz for a few months I can't stand not having it.  The ability to flick my camera about and instantly kill whatever I aimed at feels far better than trying to actually parkour a specific way every single time.  The only thing I actually miss from old peacemaker is her animations when stationary firing.  But it's a loss i'll take when instant fire itself feels so good.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Continually telling me i'm parkouring bad is a pretty flimsy defense.

It's not a flimsy defense. It's the correct answer. PEBKAC is the simplest answer to what you're saying.

This goes for your content creators, too. Having a mic, video editing software and a bunch of sycophants doesn't mean anything special.

There's actually very little substance in your post, mostly just fallacious logic and you repeating the same thing over and over without forming any sort of critical argument, so I think I'm just going to leave you to that. Especially since you have this habit of defeating your own argument by saying things that prove why the mod is just flat out worse.

I know you're disagreeing with me, but it really feels like you're going out of your way to prove yourself wrong. It's really weird and I'm frankly not sure how to respond to that.

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I think they should just make the aim focus on peacemaker to not be reset upon recasting the ability and if that's not enough make it take longer to wear off, DE clearly put that weakness on messas 4 to discourage constant braindead spam of peacemaker and make it more of something you either only use in short bursts, or use it to focus fire heavy targets, but the fact that it's animation is so fast, on a frame that doesn't take any damage means that players can just completely ignore that weakness.

 

 

 

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Peacemaker is far too cheap for what it is, especially considering that Mesa only needs Intensify to max Shatter Shield (i.e. can shove in efficiency with no problem). As low as 3.75 energy per second is way, way, WAY too low for the amount of damage it can put out, especially considering alternatives.

Ash gets at best 1.5 energy per enemy with much less damage per enemy hit. He also has no 95% damage reduction, which I'd honestly say is better than invisibility (fueling Rage, etc).

Revenant costs 13.07 energy per second at absolute best for massively less damage, wonky aiming, and no ability to focus fire.

Excalibur gets a cheap, hard hitting ultimate...that has limited range, while also having no damage mitigation skill (aside from a measly 60% block from the front).

Etc, etc.

Peacemaker has long range, efficient cost, insane status, insane damage, while being attached to a frame that is nigh immune to ranged attacks and immune to most melee enemies as well.

To actually balance Peacemaker, there's a few options I can think of.

1. Reduce range. 20-25 meters is a "everything dies around me", but isn't able to snipe multiple tiles like it currently is. Everything else stays the same.

2. Increase energy cost. Most likely the least popular option, but it would make Peacemaker more of a map/LOS wipe without being sustainable practically forever with Rage/Shatter Shield. Doubling the cost would go a long way to equalizing it, but personally that's not enough. Anything more and people would revolt.

3. Reduce the actual stats of Peacemaker. This would results in (a) lower TTK and/or (b) higher strength builds to maintain current damage, thereby reducing efficiency/ability to us other mods like massive amounts of duration with no negative. Seems to be the best compromise option, as it is possible to maintain the current massive damage but you'll have to compromise health, energy pool, or something like that.

I'm assuming any nerfs/changes to Mesa would result in a large uproar, as she's a very popular frames that is one of the best all-around (as well as one of the best hyper-specialized frames (tank/damage)). She doesn't need a full kit rework, but she needs some stat tweaks to reduce her dominance in every gamemode.

 

 

And whatever gets done to Peacemaker, please buff Ballistic Battery. That ability is entertaining, but nigh useless in its current state.

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2 hours ago, Magneu said:

Peacemaker is far too cheap for what it is, especially considering that Mesa only needs Intensify to max Shatter Shield (i.e. can shove in efficiency with no problem). As low as 3.75 energy per second is way, way, WAY too low for the amount of damage it can put out, especially considering alternatives.

Ash gets at best 1.5 energy per enemy with much less damage per enemy hit. He also has no 95% damage reduction, which I'd honestly say is better than invisibility (fueling Rage, etc).

Revenant costs 13.07 energy per second at absolute best for massively less damage, wonky aiming, and no ability to focus fire.

Excalibur gets a cheap, hard hitting ultimate...that has limited range, while also having no damage mitigation skill (aside from a measly 60% block from the front).

Etc, etc.

Peacemaker has long range, efficient cost, insane status, insane damage, while being attached to a frame that is nigh immune to ranged attacks and immune to most melee enemies as well.

To actually balance Peacemaker, there's a few options I can think of.

1. Reduce range. 20-25 meters is a "everything dies around me", but isn't able to snipe multiple tiles like it currently is. Everything else stays the same.

2. Increase energy cost. Most likely the least popular option, but it would make Peacemaker more of a map/LOS wipe without being sustainable practically forever with Rage/Shatter Shield. Doubling the cost would go a long way to equalizing it, but personally that's not enough. Anything more and people would revolt.

3. Reduce the actual stats of Peacemaker. This would results in (a) lower TTK and/or (b) higher strength builds to maintain current damage, thereby reducing efficiency/ability to us other mods like massive amounts of duration with no negative. Seems to be the best compromise option, as it is possible to maintain the current massive damage but you'll have to compromise health, energy pool, or something like that.

I'm assuming any nerfs/changes to Mesa would result in a large uproar, as she's a very popular frames that is one of the best all-around (as well as one of the best hyper-specialized frames (tank/damage)). She doesn't need a full kit rework, but she needs some stat tweaks to reduce her dominance in every gamemode.

 

 

And whatever gets done to Peacemaker, please buff Ballistic Battery. That ability is entertaining, but nigh useless in its current state.

No

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11 hours ago, Magneu said:

Peacemaker is far too cheap for what it is, especially considering that Mesa only needs Intensify to max Shatter Shield (i.e. can shove in efficiency with no problem). As low as 3.75 energy per second is way, way, WAY too low for the amount of damage it can put out, especially considering alternatives.

Ash gets at best 1.5 energy per enemy with much less damage per enemy hit. He also has no 95% damage reduction, which I'd honestly say is better than invisibility (fueling Rage, etc).

Revenant costs 13.07 energy per second at absolute best for massively less damage, wonky aiming, and no ability to focus fire.

Excalibur gets a cheap, hard hitting ultimate...that has limited range, while also having no damage mitigation skill (aside from a measly 60% block from the front).

Etc, etc.

Peacemaker has long range, efficient cost, insane status, insane damage, while being attached to a frame that is nigh immune to ranged attacks and immune to most melee enemies as well.

To actually balance Peacemaker, there's a few options I can think of.

1. Reduce range. 20-25 meters is a "everything dies around me", but isn't able to snipe multiple tiles like it currently is. Everything else stays the same.

2. Increase energy cost. Most likely the least popular option, but it would make Peacemaker more of a map/LOS wipe without being sustainable practically forever with Rage/Shatter Shield. Doubling the cost would go a long way to equalizing it, but personally that's not enough. Anything more and people would revolt.

3. Reduce the actual stats of Peacemaker. This would results in (a) lower TTK and/or (b) higher strength builds to maintain current damage, thereby reducing efficiency/ability to us other mods like massive amounts of duration with no negative. Seems to be the best compromise option, as it is possible to maintain the current massive damage but you'll have to compromise health, energy pool, or something like that.

I'm assuming any nerfs/changes to Mesa would result in a large uproar, as she's a very popular frames that is one of the best all-around (as well as one of the best hyper-specialized frames (tank/damage)). She doesn't need a full kit rework, but she needs some stat tweaks to reduce her dominance in every gamemode.

 

 

And whatever gets done to Peacemaker, please buff Ballistic Battery. That ability is entertaining, but nigh useless in its current state.

Okay so if DE were to go by your logic and since you think Mesa is more powerful than invisibility or finisher damage or enemy weakness adaptation... than danse macabre needs an augment to move and needs to be modded for particular status it procs. And excalibur's radial blind and ashes 3 and 4 all need cooldowns oh and cut the range and damage in half. Oh and no more finisher damage for Ash or Excalibur. 

Fair is fair. 

#amiright. 

Come on, get out of here with that bull your suggesting. 

Oh and you might as well just delete Octavia and redo her completely. 

DE is not gonna nerf Mesa for the third time. Especially because she's no where near what her and Ash used to be. 

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4 hours ago, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Okay so if DE were to go by your logic and since you think Mesa is more powerful than invisibility or finisher damage or enemy weakness adaptation... than danse macabre needs an augment to move and needs to be modded for particular status it procs. And excalibur's radial blind and ashes 3 and 4 all need cooldowns oh and cut the range and damage in half. Oh and no more finisher damage for Ash or Excalibur. 

Fair is fair. 

#amiright. 

Come on, get out of here with that bull your suggesting. 

Oh and you might as well just delete Octavia and redo her completely. 

DE is not gonna nerf Mesa for the third time. Especially because she's no where near what her and Ash used to be. 

When he said that damage reduction was better than invisibility I laughed. Not to mention Ash can strip armor and insta kill whatever he wants regardless of level

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Agree, Mesa is quite a fun frame but rather OP and one-sided / one-trick pony.

Actually Harrow is more of a gun-frame than her and since i also really like his build-up mechanics i tried to come up with something similar for Ballistic Battery in the past:

This would effectively boost Peacemaker's effectivity by active gunplay / aiming skill. Maybe it'd be reasonable to drain PM energy by actual killing similar to Bladestorm.

Not sure what to do with shatter shield to make it less "cast and forget". I guess the idea was to make her less vulnerable while being inevitably stationary during Peacemaker, but since PM clears everything around her incredibly fast and with Mesa's Waltz being a thing i think that's pretty moot. Right now she's not glassy enough considering her DPS potential imo.

 

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On 2018-12-30 at 4:26 AM, (PS4)JCM_Unlimited said:

No

Care to elaborate?

 

On 2018-12-30 at 4:50 PM, (PS4)JCM_Unlimited said:

When he said that damage reduction was better than invisibility I laughed. Not to mention Ash can strip armor and insta kill whatever he wants regardless of level

In my opinion, assuming a frame has 95% DR (Mesa), access to Adaption (any frame), and access to arcanes (any frame). You can stack so much damage reduction that you take negligible damage/can heal anything you take, while also constantly fueling your abilities. Ash will end up running out of energy far before Mesa due to invisibility mechanics. Again, this is my playstyle preference.

Ash's armor strip is irrelevant when corrosive Regulators can do the same, while also striking multiple targets, while also being 50m range, while also being vastly more useable, while ALSO being attached to a frame with amazing defensive abilities. Fatal Teleport is also far, far behind Peacemaker due to its one-target kill potential. Mesa is going to insta-gib anything well above level 100 faster as long as there are more than three enemies (and when would you have a single high level enemy in a mission)? I'd wager that as enemy density grows, Mesa's damage output scales past Ash's.

On 2018-12-30 at 12:07 PM, (XB1)RDeschain82 said:

Okay so if DE were to go by your logic and since you think Mesa is more powerful than invisibility or finisher damage or enemy weakness adaptation... than danse macabre needs an augment to move and needs to be modded for particular status it procs. And excalibur's radial blind and ashes 3 and 4 all need cooldowns oh and cut the range and damage in half. Oh and no more finisher damage for Ash or Excalibur. 

Fair is fair. 

#amiright. 

Come on, get out of here with that bull your suggesting. 

Oh and you might as well just delete Octavia and redo her completely. 

DE is not gonna nerf Mesa for the third time. Especially because she's no where near what her and Ash used to be. 

Finisher skills don't compare for reasons listed above. Also consider the fact that every frame with instant finisher skills (Lull and such doesn't count) doesn't have insane damage mitigation/stuns attached (off the top of my head). 

Pretending Danse Macabre is anywhere near the potential of Peacemaker is just intellectually dishonest. Get out of here with that argument. Aiming alone makes Peacemaker far superior, to say nothing of damage potential/scalability. Adapting damage (Corrosive/Magnetic/Gas) is irrelevant when Peacemaker can just use corrosive and still destroy anything, armor or not. I can see the attempt to correlate Mesa's Waltz and Danse's movement (as weak as that argument is), but I fail to see why you're attempting to claim that Danse's status potential is better than Peacemaker.

In addition, Excalibur and Ash don't have any cooldowns to speak of aside from activating an ability/animations. Don't know where you're pulling that from.

So yes, I'll claim that Mesa is both an amazing general frame and hyper-specialized, which is contrary to any sort of balance design. She can tank, minor CC, and deal massive damage in a massive range. Something has to be reduced, or Mesa is just a better choice than any frame in a majority of situations (and to head you off, I already disapprove of Equinox/Sayrn). Claiming a weak frame should be buffed instead of a super-strong frame nerfed is just an attempt to protect a personally valued asset. Nerf the outlier before buffing the rest of the bell curve (and for that matter, buff the left end of the bell curve as well).

However, DE isn't going to nerf Mesa anytime soon. They're making way too much money off of Prime Access currently. Maybe after this PA has ended.

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On 2018-12-27 at 2:20 PM, (XB1)Zweimander said:

Mesa is fine as is and anything other then a change to her 1 would be a nerf.

That's...that's the idea.

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