The Operator needs more Arcane Slots...

[Kaotyke]

Really, they need the Arcanes for Armor and HP to survive more than 5 shots, even with the Unairu and Vazarin Waybounds, they still get killed easily.

Now, we have Arcanes that enhance the Void Powers even further.

Should we be getting 1 Arcane Slot for each Void Ability and 2 for Survivability? (Cant put Arcanes that effect the Void Blast on the Slot that is made for Void Dash and such.)

[Xhobract]

That's what I've been thinking about as of late as well. Even with all the waybounds, it is really hard to say no to at the very least Husk and/or Vigor if you want to have some staying power in operator form. Say I'd like to try the obvious synergy between Magus Melt and Magus Accelerant, I'd be very squishy as a result as I'd have to drop all survivability Arcanes.

If more and more Arcanes get added but we are limited to a mere two of them, then this won't feel very good. It is very limiting even now to have a admittedly very interesting getting pool of Arcanes with the addition of stuff like Lockdown and Revert and having no playroom due to heavy slot restrictions if you actually want to stay in Operator form more than a few seconds.

It's not like Operators are going to eclipse min-maxed Warframes and weapons anytime soon in power even were they given several times more slots for Arcanes, so there should be no concern here.

On a similar note: With Amps getting access to more Arcanes as well this will become a similar problem for them. (Not even gonna start on status amps with the available damage types we have right now in combination with only having one Virtuous Arcane slot...)

 

TLDR: I agree to more Arcane slots as power creep against enemies is a non-issue if we take Warframes themselves into account

[Xzorn]

I mean... I don't think it would break the game but two slots feels like a good standard.

I could def get behind 2 slots on the amps and I hope Arch-gun Arcanes happen and get two slots.

They could of course just make the operator not a total wuss at base value.

[birdobash]

I'd say at least 5 would be a good amount, 2 for husk and vigor, 2 for offensive arcanes, 1 for utility arcanes.

[Teridax68]

Considering how arcanes are basically just mods by another name, I'd say the solution here could be to just give Operators mods, and turn current arcanes into mods (perhaps also tie Focus trees into this). I agree that Operator base health is far too low, and that filling one's slots with Magus Vigor/Husk just to be at a decent level isn't particularly interesting when there are many more interesting, albeit less powerful arcane effects to use. With that said, though, I feel the solution to that problem could also be to just increase Operator base health and armor, and then reduce the bonuses from Focus and arcanes, so the choice would be more about getting that extra bit of tankiness versus some other utility, as opposed to choosing between two of the most boring arcanes in the game or not having enough durability to function in most missions.

[peterc3]

Here we are in the situation DE was trying to avoid. Arcanes are not mods and won't be treated like them. There will be a trade-off for more slots and it won't mean you keep the existing power level of each slot.

14 hours ago, birdobash said:

I'd say at least 5 would be a good amount, 2 for husk and vigor, 2 for offensive arcanes, 1 for utility arcanes.

Why not 6 or 8?

[birdobash]

3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Here we are in the situation DE was trying to avoid. Arcanes are not mods and won't be treated like them. There will be a trade-off for more slots and it won't mean you keep the existing power level of each slot.

Why not 6 or 8?

Well in the case of operator arcanes modt of them don't even serve as arcanes, their functionality resembles those of mods much more than arcanes.

Example, magus husk and vigor are the equivalent of a warframe steel fiber and vitality, but for some reason they are arcanes and not mods despite doing the same thing.

Same with virtuous strike and shadow, they're more like mods than arcanes as well.

Not to say that some of the operator arcanes actually work more like arcanes than mods, but majority of the useful ones resemble modding a lot more than arcanes.

[DrBorris]

I would have rather seen some of those new Arcanes integrated directly into Focus, but c'est la vie. 

Focus 2.0 did a lot to improve Operators, however is still a long way out from being "great". 

Edited December 27, 2018 by DrBorris

[Elementalos]

8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Arcanes are not mods

I mean, you can say that... but they are.

[Herbeh]

Operators are meant for a pop in/out play style to compliment frames, too many arcanes would break their intention. Having 2 just for void abilities though would be a good balance so you can have a tanky op or one that heals the frame when they're out etc AND have a bit of ability customization

[Teridax68]

16 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Here we are in the situation DE was trying to avoid. Arcanes are not mods and won't be treated like them. There will be a trade-off for more slots and it won't mean you keep the existing power level of each slot.

Arcanes aren't mods, because... why? Why does there need to be a tradeoff to Operators having more mod slots when Operators are far, far behind warframes in power, even with Focus maxed out? Even if there does need to be a tradeoff, it would still be better to have more customization than to only be able to equip the two boring stat boosts needed just for Operator mode to be usable.

This is just for Operators, by the way, as currently they have no mod-based customization whatsoever. Perhaps the same could be said for Amps, which are also notoriously underwhelming in all but a few niche situations and don't have mods, but beyond that, if power creep is really a pressing issue (and I'd say it is), a potential solution could simply be to turn existing arcanes for warframes, zaws, and kitguns into mods, and remove the separate arcane slots reserved for them. The end result would be less overall power, but more potential choices to make, as some arcanes would still be worth a mod slot.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Teridax68

[Kaotyke]

18 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Here we are in the situation DE was trying to avoid. Arcanes are not mods and won't be treated like them. There will be a trade-off for more slots and it won't mean you keep the existing power level of each slot.

But thats the thing. The Arcanes we had before the Operator ones (not counting the helmets ofc) had triggers. Specific conditions for them to happen. Even the most passive ones to like the immunity to a proc required you to be hit by that element.

Some of the Operator Arcanes are fitting that criteria, yes. But those who are straight buffs like Vigor and Husk have the same condition as Mods: they are always on. Should be a different category from what the usual Arcanes are.

 

[birdobash]

2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

But thats the thing. The Arcanes we had before the Operator ones (not counting the helmets ofc) had triggers. Specific conditions for them to happen. Even the most passive ones to like the immunity to a proc required you to be hit by that element.

Some of the Operator Arcanes are fitting that criteria, yes. But those who are straight buffs like Vigor and Husk have the same condition as Mods: they are always on. Should be a different category from what the usual Arcanes are.

 

Not that I disagree but fun fact husk and vigor actually do have triggers, thing is that the trigger is entering operator mode. Effectively meaning there ISN'T a trigger (ironic isn't it?)

Anyway it just means that yes they effectively don't have triggers even though "technically" they do.

[Kaotyke]

20 hours ago, birdobash said:

Not that I disagree but fun fact husk and vigor actually do have triggers, thing is that the trigger is entering operator mode. Effectively meaning there ISN'T a trigger (ironic isn't it?)

Anyway it just means that yes they effectively don't have triggers even though "technically" they do.

By that logic, every single Mod have triggers, that being: equiping them.

[Radagosh]

Time to nekro.

I believe Operators from people with 5 maxed Focus schools and people that just finished the war within should have a difference in operator arcane slots as well. There should be progress beyond the Focus schools, more Unbounds would be greatly appreciated but with the introduction of Fortuna and its new Arcanes a way to increase your Arcane slots for Operators just seems needed.