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If we ever get scalable rewards, it should be Kuva


birdobash
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Kuva and the riven system rn is a broken system, most of the community aknowledges that, but I'm not here to discuss the riven system but the kuva system.

Atm Kuva flood is the most time efficient way to farm kuva, limitations are you can only do it once per hour. Siphons are more abundant but don't give as much kuva. Kuva survival was promised to be an alternative to siphons for people who didn't like the mission or wanted something new.

Kuva survival is kind of a flop, sure there are people who like playing it but there are also many who don't. First of all the amount of kuva for your time is actually slightly worse than running siphons in practical terms, in a perfect world the amount of kuva per 5 minutes is technically around 50-100 more, but that would mean you're immediately putting in the kuva catalyst inside the life support the moment it spawns, meaning in practical terms it is less.

Secondly, the map for kuva survival is frankly terrible, I don't think there are many people who would say the map design is "great" or "perfect". In comparison to other mission maps it is easy to get lost or get stuck on a lot of weird geometry, and enemy pathing frequently gets jammed in tight hallways, slowing down life support.

Kuva is one of those resources where you can almost never run out, since rivens are so RNG based, and the fact that kuva is not very abundant means that the whole riven and kuva system can feel very very punishing and outright tiring.

So first of all, the mode for kuva survival needs a map rework, then it needs some sort of kuva reward scaling. The scaling should stay about the same for the first 15-20 minutes meaning first 15-20 is in practice less kuva than in siphons (it's already like this) but once you get passed that time mark, it should scale up the rewards so it actually gives incentive to stay longer. The amount it increases by should cap out at 60 minutes probably, and the amount per siphon at that point should probably be around 1/2 or 1/3 of a kuva flood. 

Keep in mind these numbers are just my own speculation and opinion, we can discuss the numbers that might feel better, since I have no idea if this seems underpowered or overpowered.

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Still waiting for a Double Resource Weekend. : |

That'd help a bit.
I remain unsure of why scaling rewards can't be a thing for a majority of missions. I guess they don't want Kuva Siphons or Floods to be overwritten by Kuva Survivals, because if that happened then nobody would ever play them again.

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9 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

This dead beaten horse again?

DE doesn't want Kuva Survival to be better than Floods. They explained time and time again why Kuva Survival sits between both normal Kuva missions

As of now, it isn't between both kuva missions, it is less than both, as stated above.

I also never said it should be better than flood, as flood is supposed to be the limited 1 time per hour burst of kuva.

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10 minutes ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

This dead beaten horse again?

DE doesn't want Kuva Survival to be better than Floods. They explained time and time again why Kuva Survival sits between both normal Kuva missions

This is like DE doesn't want endgame to happen.
People shouldn't be surprised that vets keep complaining.

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23 minutes ago, birdobash said:

As of now, it isn't between both kuva missions, it is less than both, as stated above.

I also never said it should be better than flood, as flood is supposed to be the limited 1 time per hour burst of kuva.

no it sits between both unless you're always getting quick missions like capture or exterminate which is unlikely and even then it relies on you and a team being generally extremely quick on beating those missions and having good siphon placement and quickly lining up the next mission and quickly selecting a loadout if needed and loading in in a timely manner as some run the game with potatoes.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

no it sits between both unless you're always getting quick missions like capture or exterminate which is unlikely and even then it relies on you and a team being generally extremely quick on beating those missions and having good siphon placement and quickly lining up the next mission and quickly selecting a loadout if needed and loading in in a timely manner as some run the game with potatoes.

Quoted from Creator409 on the offical warframe subreddit

Survival:

3600s{1h survival} / (90s/tower) * (200kuva/tower) = 8000 kuva/h

This is the maximum amount of kuva possible from a survival ignoring any travel time, assuming none of the towers get used for life support, and the mission doesn't bug out in some fashion.

Siphons:

Kuva siphons give 550-700 kuva, we'll average that out to 625 kuva. To break even, you must complete siphons on average:

3600s / (8000kuva / (625kuva/mission)) = 281.25s/mission (~4mins 41s/mission)

A kuva siphon survival is the longest siphon mission and can be completed in 5-5.5min. Mobile defences take 3min plus 1min of travel time = 4min. Captures, exterminates, sabotage etc, should take about 3-4 minutes.

If you can complete full siphon missions cycles (including loading in and out of missions) in under 4min 41s, which most should find easy, than siphons are more rewarding.

End quote

So no, if you do the math it comes out as worse than siphon.

Edited by birdobash
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Yes notice he's listing optimal times if things go perfect.Also #*!% those MD times half the time lol. Especially if you're just hopping in. This is assuming those multiple siphon runs don't also bug out like the mentioned kuva survival where the kuva patch just gets stuck on geometry or decides to not spawn and where the siphon is right on the way which maybe 4/5 times it is but the one time you find extraction and realize the siphon is miles back is a lot of efficiency loss. "most should find easy" really equates to "#*!%ing cross your fingers" especially if you run with randoms.

The actually better way to go about it is run the flood, then ext or cap siphons if you're confident then run survival till the swap.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Yes-Man-Kablaam said:

Yes notice he's listing optimal times if things go perfect.Also #*!% those MD times half the time lol. Especially if you're just hopping in. This is assuming those multiple siphon runs don't also bug out like the mentioned kuva survival where the kuva patch just gets stuck on geometry or decides to not spawn and where the siphon is right on the way which maybe 4/5 times it is but the one time you find extraction and realize the siphon is miles back is a lot of efficiency loss. "most should find easy" really equates to "#*!%ing cross your fingers" especially if you run with randoms.

The actually better way to go about it is run the flood, then ext or cap siphons if you're confident then run survival till the swap.

Perfect times for the "survival", and optimal times for the "siphons". Also if siphons bug out it isn't as bad as a survival bugging out, since if a survival bugs out you lose all the rewards you would've gained in the optimal 20 minutes, rather than just losing around 600 kuba for the siphons.

In reality the survival values he listed would be the perfect world values, but 99% of the time you get less than what he listed, whereas the values he posted for siphon are based off not perfect times but optimal times, and even then it is shown that survival seems to give less.

The TL:DR is that even when you do a PERFECT kuva survival, it is still less than a non-perfect stream of kuva siphons.

Edited by birdobash
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5 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

This dead beaten horse again?

DE doesn't want Kuva Survival to be better than Floods. They explained time and time again why Kuva Survival sits between both normal Kuva missions

This post doesn't help even in tiniest bit.

If playerbase will want it and pester DE long enough, we'll get it. Unless some deniers will come in with their:

"DE said no"

"DE doesn't want it"

"DE this"

"DE that"

We all KNOW what DE thinks about it. We all KNOW this thread is repetitive and tiresome even. But that's the part of players trying to communicate with deaf, blind, maybe arrogant and definitely ignorant developers. That's how it works. if 1 thread didn;t work, try another. Then another. Then next 1000. 

 

Those unhelpful defending posts are so irritating.

5 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Kuva would interest me less than the exact same number in Credits.  It's useless outside of a small handful of blueprints except for the oh boy i get to pull the handle of the slot machine again wheeee i sure do love gambling yaaay aren't random numbers fun that are Rivens.

So you wouldn't want scallable kuva, because it'd give you more chances too play RNG slot machine, which you dislike, even though you wouldn't have to participate at all? Did I get it right? You deny it even though you don't care about it in the first place?

 

 

 

Edited by deothor
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10 minutes ago, deothor said:

This post doesn't help even in tiniest bit.

If playerbase will want it and pester DE long enough, we'll get it. Unless some deniers will come in with their:

"DE said no"

"DE doesn't want it"

"DE this"

"DE that"

We all KNOW what DE thinks about it. We all KNOW this thread is repetitive and tiresome even. But that's the part of players trying to communicate with deaf, blind, maybe arrogant and definitely ignorant developers. That's how it works. if 1 thread didn;t work, try another. Then another. Then next 1000. 

 

Those unhelpful defending posts are so irritating.

So you wouldn't want scallable kuva, because it'd give you more chances too play RNG slot machine, which you dislike, even though you wouldn't have to participate at all? Did I get it right? You deny it even though you don't care about it in the first place?

 

 

 

this man speaks truth. it's honestly the same thing than with Uni-vacuum. after community complained enough, they finally did it. so for Kuva, it will be the same thing. DE have sadly to acknowledge there is endgame people that want a TRUE way to get Kuva, scalable way. the Kuva survival right now isn't anywhere good.

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12 minutes ago, deothor said:

This post doesn't help even in tiniest bit.

no, it does. DE has stated that kuva survival is meant to be a middle ground and if they made anything better then floods, people would stop doing floods. 

 It is possible to get taxied to kuva floods over, and over, and over again via friends. They simply start the flood vote and leave when the mission is in progress. I have no idea why DE hasn't "fixed" this since as far as I can tell DE really wants players to pay for resource boosters to earn any reasonable amount of kuva. Maybe it's just a oversight or maybe it's just not a problem they have a desire to fix since perhaps to few people use it (abuse it?)

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Kuva floods should run like arbitrations. Be active on a node for an hr... Then move to a new node.

Why?

Because kuva floods aren't just more efficient ways of earning kuva... They're also more fun.

I always buy resource boosters... A month at a time. Wish we could buy them by the quarter or by the year.

Edited by (PS4)big_eviljak
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3 minutes ago, mikakor said:

this man speaks truth. it's honestly the same thing than with Uni-vacuum. after community complained enough, they finally did it. so for Kuva, it will be the same thing. DE have sadly to acknowledge there is endgame people that want a TRUE way to get Kuva, scalable way. the Kuva survival right now isn't anywhere good.

The problem with that is uni-vac doesn't hamper new players. Scaling rewards on anything does. New players will mostly always be at a disadvantage as they can't go as far as "veteran" players can. Scaling rewards can only ever serve to create disparity between players. With the way daily standing caps combined and MR ranks work there's enough of that in game already. 

It takes a long time for a complete new player to catch up to veterans in terms of frames, guns, mods, relic counts, just about everything. Scaling rewards will only further that and with the way the steam player charts are looking, new players aren't sticking around it seems. 

 

of course a player can always be taxi'ed and carried. "Hey look my friends did all the work and I got 60,000 kuva. You only got 15k in a hour? Oof, that sucks." 

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1 minute ago, Fire2box said:

The problem with that is uni-vac doesn't hamper new players. Scaling rewards on anything does. New players will mostly always be at a disadvantage as they can't go as far as "veteran" players can. Scaling rewards can only ever serve to create disparity between players. With the way daily standing caps combined and MR ranks work there's enough of that in game already. 

It takes a long time for a complete new player to catch up to veterans in terms of frames, guns, mods, relic counts, just about everything. Scaling rewards will only further that and with the way the steam player charts are looking, new players aren't sticking around it seems. 

 

of course a player can always be taxi'ed and carried. "Hey look my friends did all the work and I got 60,000 kuva. You only got 15k in a hour? Oof, that sucks." 

This game is primarily pve... Catching up isnt a focus nor a problem. An mr6 can outplay and mr26 and it doesn't matter. The mr system is a, take ur time and enjoy the game mechanic. Not a push yourself to catch up mechanic. Ive been playing for 4+ years... Just now hit mr26... Because i love the game and i can take my time. Doesn't hurt anyone to not catch up immediately.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

This game is primarily pve... Catching up isnt a focus nor a problem. An mr6 can outplay and mr26 and it doesn't matter. The mr system is a, take ur time and enjoy the game mechanic. Not a push yourself to catch up mechanic. Ive been playing for 4+ years... Just now hit mr26... Because i love the game and i can take my time. Doesn't hurt anyone to not catch up immediately.

that's a strawman argument. 

I said "With the way daily standing caps combined and MR ranks work there's enough of that in game already. " A MR6 player can not ever earn as much or more daily standing cap as a higher MR player. That's simply a fact. 

Could a MR5 player hypothetically earn more kuva then a team of MR24-MR26 players if scaling kuva ever came to Warframe? Sure. Will most of them? Not a chance. 

 

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36 minutes ago, deothor said:

This post doesn't help even in tiniest bit.

If playerbase will want it and pester DE long enough, we'll get it. Unless some deniers will come in with their:

"DE said no"

"DE doesn't want it"

"DE this"

"DE that"

We all KNOW what DE thinks about it. We all KNOW this thread is repetitive and tiresome even. But that's the part of players trying to communicate with deaf, blind, maybe arrogant and definitely ignorant developers. That's how it works. if 1 thread didn;t work, try another. Then another. Then next 1000. 

 

Those unhelpful defending posts are so irritating.

So you wouldn't want scallable kuva, because it'd give you more chances too play RNG slot machine, which you dislike, even though you wouldn't have to participate at all? Did I get it right? You deny it even though you don't care about it in the first place?

 

 

 

Also to note I think the entire point of people like me bring up "DE doesn't want to do that," "DE already stated it's not going to happen" is more for us to pick battles we can actually win, such as Uni-vac. 

Example: I'm no longer yelling at the brick wall of asking DE to uncap standing. DE Scott stated as such on Tactical Potato's interview with him. So now it's onto asking for changes DE might actually do, vs never will do. 

Edited by Fire2box
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It's pretty clear that DE have no intention to allow players to get more Kuva than they are currently getting, else the numbers would have been increased from the start. I don't think it's a problem, scaling rewards doesn't really mean anything in the long term outside of people spending more time in a single mission rather than over multiple games. The amount of Kuva we get is also not an actual problem since it's a matter of perspective on a player's desire. 

There is a risk attached to scaling rewards though, especially if you're talking about something like Kuva. You're going to push people to be more exploitative to amass more Kuva with as little effort as possible. A similar concept to daily caps on standing except applied to regular gameplay.

Edited by RX-3DR
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31 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

The problem with that is uni-vac doesn't hamper new players. Scaling rewards on anything does. New players will mostly always be at a disadvantage as they can't go as far as "veteran" players can. Scaling rewards can only ever serve to create disparity between players. With the way daily standing caps combined and MR ranks work there's enough of that in game already. 

It takes a long time for a complete new player to catch up to veterans in terms of frames, guns, mods, relic counts, just about everything. Scaling rewards will only further that and with the way the steam player charts are looking, new players aren't sticking around it seems. 

 

of course a player can always be taxi'ed and carried. "Hey look my friends did all the work and I got 60,000 kuva. You only got 15k in a hour? Oof, that sucks." 

 well, boohoo for those new players. but in a game, disparity between veterans and new player is bloody NORMAL. this shouldn't be a problem, as YES, a veteran should, and will, have better gears than new players, to which this mode of a true and viable kuva gain mode wouldn't be adressed to. wow people xD this is for players who want riven, AKA one of the endgames. new players don't have a word to say in this, as it isn't directed toward them at all.

Edited by mikakor
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45 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

The problem with that is uni-vac doesn't hamper new players. Scaling rewards on anything does. New players will mostly always be at a disadvantage as they can't go as far as "veteran" players can. Scaling rewards can only ever serve to create disparity between players. With the way daily standing caps combined and MR ranks work there's enough of that in game already. 

It takes a long time for a complete new player to catch up to veterans in terms of frames, guns, mods, relic counts, just about everything. Scaling rewards will only further that and with the way the steam player charts are looking, new players aren't sticking around it seems. 

 

of course a player can always be taxi'ed and carried. "Hey look my friends did all the work and I got 60,000 kuva. You only got 15k in a hour? Oof, that sucks." 

Well the argument I can put forward with that would be that it wouldn't hamper new players more than it already is ingame, because as of right now having no scalable rewards means they get what we have now, but if we get scalable rewards they'll STILL get what they have now, but then they'll have incentive to invest more time into the game to start getting enough power to go through scalability.

Plus, it technically would be actually quite sad for veterans compared to newer players if they ever did implement scaled rewards, since all veterans have had to get to their warframe veteran play without having any scaled rewards. Sure they'll be able to immediately jump in if its introduced, but they'll have missed months to YEARS of the feature, meanwhile new players would get the benefits the moment they got enough power in their arsenal.

And the thing about standing caps and MR rank are true, but the thing is those wouldn't be the same as scaling rewards, because MR rank directly limits how much you can earn depending on what MR you are, meaning there is no way to break that limit (it's a dumb system), but scaling rewards are based off of how far you can go into a mission which only depends on your current arsenal power. Unlike MR, arsenal power can be achieved decently earlier than getting high MR is.

Because if you think about it, there are plenty of lower mr players who choose to stick with their weapons and frames of choice, but they would still be as powerful as an MR 26, they would just have leveled up less mastery fodder.

Edited by birdobash
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34 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

Also to note I think the entire point of people like me bring up "DE doesn't want to do that," "DE already stated it's not going to happen" is more for us to pick battles we can actually win, such as Uni-vac. 

Example: I'm no longer yelling at the brick wall of asking DE to uncap standing. DE Scott stated as such on Tactical Potato's interview with him. So now it's onto asking for changes DE might actually do, vs never will do. 

They said b4 awhile ago that they would never introduce vacuum for companions because it would make sentinels obsolete. Well they changed their minds.

DE is a company of humans, people, they can be convinced if enough people and their voices playing their game can resound loud enough for them to take notice. You never know, maybe daily caps won't be removed, maybe they will, maybe the cap will be raised substantially. If there is even a minuscule chance of winning, you should take it.

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Increasing Kuva gains would just mean less of a chance to ever have Rivens that are easier to roll. And Rivens need more system related changes before the "grind" should ever be looked at.

They're also meant to be an end-game grind, not an essential grind wall you're forced to scale in order to progress. There isn't even a reason to reduce the time it takes to roll them in the first place.

 

But besides that DE will likely never make scaling rewards, at least not in any system that would appease the people that constantly ask for them.

DE doesn't want to encourage players to spend as long as physically possible in a mission. If they ever did give us scaling rewards it'd probably be in a system similar to E/SO where it's technically impossible to be endless. Also having scaling rewards would cause drama within the community from players who don't have hours a day to play and get upset over not being able to farm "efficiently" and/or feeling forced to do an hour+ mission and nothing else with their time.

Plus the game breaks down hard after a certain point. Between armor scaling and enemy damage the game falls under the only real meta it has (builds that survive against and can kill enemies at this level), which is also something DE has never intentionally enforced.

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