Jump to content

Profit-Taker? The mobs are the real threat!


.Grineer_Slayer.
 Share

Recommended Posts

The dynamics of the Profit-Taker is wonderfully done, though with plenty of room for improvement. However, before i even got to phase 4 to kill the big ol' spider, i noticed some reoccurring issues.

First, the regular mobs were set to a rather high base level. This didn't bother me because its nice having some difficulty, but the way the phases progressed, it became more and more of a problem. During phase 3, where players first got a taste of the pain Profit-Taker can dish out, there was a great scale of dread as she climbed down from her perch to face the tenno in combat and this was wonderful... Until i noticed what followed her into battle.

Instead of fleeing the area or holding back in safe positions, the additional Corpus mobs joined the fight... not just by a few.. but as a whole damn army. Non-tanky frames would constantly die almost instantly to the bullet hell of blaster fire, explosions, knockbacks, and homing missiles. Even as you tried to kill them, their numbers would keep up, making survivability something only for tanky frames to enjoy as they get battered around by knockback/knockdowns. The dread and threat that came down with that Orb Mother quickly switched from her, to the damn horde that rushes you, turning the whole fight into a DPS race just to save yourself from the harassment. Ruining any joy to be had from the encounter or wanting to go back in and repeat the mission. This is a problem, and a common mistake found in poor boss-battle mechanics.

Increasing HP, Damage, or number of additional mobs in the fight does NOT equal enjoyable gameplay. Turning what joy players could derive from their time spent in the encounter, into a painful strain of work, heavy effort, and often being forced into a hard meta.

Second, forcing a hard meta! Whatever DE intended for this fight, i dont think they've achieved. The more time i've spent farming these heists, the more and more Chroma and Inaros i saw.. it got really gross. When designing a boss fight, you want the end goal to achieve a "recommended" team comp. Not a "required" team comp. This goes back to just how bad non-tanky frames have it in these fights. The moment you come out of hiding, rather it be from cover or as your operator, your quickly met with a swift death if you dont have tons of hp and armor. This forces players into a position where they have to choose to use a frame they may not want to use just to participate successfully. Placing all of the rewards behind a meta-wall. Even frames that can cloak, like Loki or Ivara are met with a grim fate from homing projectiles still locking onto them. Not to mention all the aoe's going off everywhere. This cuts out frames that rely on utility for their defenses.

Putting players into a position where they are forced to play the game in a way they don't enjoy, effectively ruins the experience for them. Meta = Bad. Don't do it. Some players enjoy following the meta curve, but it shouldn't be forced.

Third, the loss of threat from the Boss. Difficulty doesn't equal fun. This may sound crazy, but a boss can actually be easy to kill and still be very enjoyable and thrilling. Bring players back for more, willing to spend their time dealing with it. You just have to make sure to keep the real threat on the Boss itself.

"I am patient, I am still. When I descend, it's you I'll kill."

She is a patient hunter, focused on her prey when the time comes to pounce. As a spider would. It's not the Orb Mother who should fear the tenno, but the other way around. Getting close to this boss should be a bad idea, make the fight decently comfortable being fought from a distance. She's a highly intelligent AI, who should be capable of using her kit of skills to her advantage, forcing players into positions that she can take advantage of. Locking onto her prey and focusing them down, or catching them in corpus tech webs, giving the players a short time to break free before she vaporizes them with a huge laser blast or something. Improve her movement, there's nothing in the universe that says large creatures should only move slowly. Giver her short bursts of quick movement to reposition herself to her advantage or to trample over players. She doesn't need an army of pathetic corpus minions to aid her until shes unable to preserve her own life. Make the corpus afraid of getting close to her too, make her attacks harmful to them if you want to have them present on the field. You can still have it be a dps race with her shields, but make it at least feel like shes aware that she needs to protect herself from that weakness. Rather it be by defensive means, or offensive means. You can let the fight stretch out by her being defensive. Let her choose to be intimidating in her choices to be offensive. Keep players guessing, reorganizing to access and deal with the Boss' actions. If this were a dance, the boss needs to always be the one who's leading, let her set the pace of the fight. Not with cheap rotation phase mechanics.

Like i said, actually beating the boss can be easy. Its the impression it makes, how it holds that impression, and how the players are left feeling after overcoming it that matters most.

 

From my perspective, these are the things that are effectively RULED OUT of fighting Profit-Taker:

  • Any frame that isn't tanky, or doesn't have the means to be tanky
  • Frames that rely on utility to survive
  • Frames that rely on crowd control to survive
  • Archwings
  • Operators
  • Pets
  • All weak weapons
  • Strong weapons with limited damage types
  • The tears of the tenno
  • My tears
  • most likely this post too

 

00.01% chance this will actually have any impact, but eh. Glad i said something. *thumbs up*

Edited by Runa_Nisshoku
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed on the points.  Unfortunately DE has boxed themselves in with Void Mode vs most boss abilities.  Boss AoE needing either a defensive ability or agility?  Void Mode.  Homing mechanics?  Void mode.  Damaged?  Well you're either on the floor writhing as a squishy, or survived Void Moded and use Magus Elevate.  For them to pose a threat to Chroma/Inaros they have to push the damage up and spike it to tank-buster levels.  Adaptation just took the amount needed to a different level.

Hmm, just a thought.  Is there anyone brave/skilled/stupid enough to do Titania vs Profit Taker and publicly record it?  I don't have enough masochism to do it myself, but it could be a highly amusing bit of Schadenfreude.

Edited by WhimsicalPacifist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

Agreed on the points.  Unfortunately DE has boxed themselves in with Void Mode vs most boss abilities.  Boss AoE needing either a defensive ability or agility?  Void Mode.  Homing mechanics?  Void mode.  Damaged?  Well you're either on the floor writhing as a squishy, or survived Void Moded and use Magus Elevate.  For them to pose a threat to Chroma/Inaros they have to push the damage up and spike it to tank-buster levels.  Adaptation just took the amount needed to a different level.

Hmm, just a thought.  Is there anyone brave/skilled/stupid enough to do Titania vs Profit Taker and publicly record it?  I don't have enough masochism to do it myself, but it could be a highly amusing bit of Schadenfreude.

hmm, maybe have the Profit-Taker send out and aura that over time stacks a debuff that reduces armor by a %. Making her more lethal as the fight goes on. Less tanky frames wont feel it as much since they dont have much armor to begin with. Tanky frames will, but they'll still have their hp.

Since Tinytania's flight mode is pretty much archwing, she'll get shot out of the sky. Just half as likely with her evasion. I kinda want to try it though lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, WhimsicalPacifist said:

Agreed on the points.  Unfortunately DE has boxed themselves in with Void Mode vs most boss abilities.  Boss AoE needing either a defensive ability or agility?  Void Mode.  Homing mechanics?  Void mode.  Damaged?  Well you're either on the floor writhing as a squishy, or survived Void Moded and use Magus Elevate.  For them to pose a threat to Chroma/Inaros they have to push the damage up and spike it to tank-buster levels.  Adaptation just took the amount needed to a different level.

Hmm, just a thought.  Is there anyone brave/skilled/stupid enough to do Titania vs Profit Taker and publicly record it?  I don't have enough masochism to do it myself, but it could be a highly amusing bit of Schadenfreude.

Yet another Example of how their continued refusal to balance their game, harms it in the long run.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Yet another Example of how their continued refusal to balance their game, harms it in the long run.

So much wasted potential... *sigh*

This is only speculation, but i've been wondering if the reason they've set up the orb fight the way it is to try and get people to buy Chroma Prime. That way DE would "profit" off of it.

Id like to think they wouldn't do something like this, give them the benefit of the doubt.. but damn. I ran about 8 public runs the other day, and just about every team comp was primarily Chroma Primes.

Chroma Primes as far as the eye could see... This forced meta is making me dislike this frame very much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am 27.12.2018 um 00:17 schrieb Runa_Nisshoku:

Increasing HP, Damage, or number of additional mobs in the fight does NOT equal enjoyable gameplay.

It could, if wouldnt feel like every 2nd enemy is able to perform knockdowns and trigger stagger-animations on the player.

Today i tried bringing a Zenister just out of curiosity because i wanted to see if it can do damage on the spider with the disk.

 

Trying to actually place the disc anywhere was one of the most infuriating things you can try in this fight.

It took me a whole bunch of attempts to even place the disc because whenever i was charging, someone or something knocked me down or staggered me so the animation was cancelled. I only placed 1 disc then and already knew i will never bring that weapon there again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did the spider today a few times and encountered a ton of chromas. Than a party with 0 chromas but a Nyx. And some hours later (Im not constantly farming the spider) a Mirage. Both did very well IMO and didnt die more than a lot of "tank-frames". Might be they were kitted out to the max, no idea, I just wanted to note, that there are other frames out and they do well. Its not a lot though. In both cases we needed around 10 minutes, which is IMO good.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With enough defensive mods, you can get just about any frame to the point where they can survive the hits for mitigation procs to kick in.  (Even so he nearly goes down and has to Magus Elevate himself up).  But at that point the frame itself is mutable (to where you should be picking the optimal one that doesn't need such extensive modding) and it's less skill-based and more of a gear check.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2018-12-27 at 1:53 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

Yet another Example of how their continued refusal to balance their game, harms it in the long run.

The future is now, although I’d say it is more their neglect broadening mission and combat variety. They are, however, extremely proficient chucking out mods, frames and an endless stream of yet more radiation based guns. What these are any good for outside of most existing gear, if that is even possible, is hard to imagine.

 

On 2018-12-29 at 11:40 PM, Loli_in_a_Box said:

I really hope this doesn't become like the eidolons where you can only bring a handful of frames and weapons, also if the mobs are more of a problem than the boss. Is that really a boss or a distraction.

 

The orb mother seems to require you have several handfuls of weapons on hand tho, right?

All DE did was reuse ESO or void style spawn on your head cheese and then throw in ground cc along with nullifier unit cheese.

Kind of begs the question what they’ll do for infested, corrupted or even sentient, “higher level content”. 

Edited by (PS4)teacup775
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've said this on other threads, but although I like the enemies during regular OV gameplay... they have no place in the Profit Taker fight. 

The enemies on Orb Vallis are fun for me because they require more attention and investment to beat than regular enemies. I'm frequently put in danger when fighting them due to them having a better, more diverse skillset with the Mini-bosses put some serious pressure on when playing. Whilst I'm not totally happy with all the balancing (I'll never not hate high-damage high-accuracy attacks like the Overtakers have...) they're an excellent step-up in terms of gameplay than the rather brain-dead troops we fight in tilesets.

It is for precisely this reason that they don't belong with Profit-taker. These enemies all demand attention, which you can't have during a boss fight of this Caliber. Profit-Taker already has some questionable design (why are there still so many HIGH DAMGE HOMING MISSILES???) and it's exacerbated by being unable to devote your attention to her. She already has way worse telegraphing than the Eidolons as several attacks having barely any at all, compared with the Eidolons very distinct wind ups. Combined with her high damage output, we need as much attention as we can to fight her. We cannot afford the same level of attention as the OV enemies are designed to use.

If enemies MUST be in this fight to preserve the whole 'she's getting reinforcements' thing, replace them with non-Terra Crewmen and MOA's. Not only would it be neat to see these enemies on OV, they also demand less from the player keeping the focus on what we're all here for.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Loza03 said:

I'm frequently put in danger when fighting them due to them having a better, more diverse skillset with the Mini-bosses put some serious pressure on when playing.

I’ll agree they are much more fun to tangle with, but they are also not much more to tangle with.

The mid sized orbs have stages. (Slow and) flank.

Jackal, who can minigun a player quickly and has a shield, but who is simply (slowed and) flanked. I’d like to see a variant where you have to blow off a limb and when the unit is destroyed, explode.

Hyenas are highly mobile and immune to cc, with a few minor ground attacks and eh.

Instead of mass cc and spawn spam, it’d be nice to have a pack for whom being tightly packed significantly adds to their threat and others for whom being spread out does (say they surround you and then can very effectively stun lock you or something else). Or a pack where one or two units stun lock you but have no direct damage and the rest can kill. In other cases, elites that are specifically and preferably more fun to melee kill, like lobbing off or destroying a leg or ones where getting inside a shield and up close and personal is a thing.

There’s also options like health link packs or shared defense (whom ever is being hit get’s defense redirected to them). One’s that are better shot or one shot stabbed from above etc.

Edited by (PS4)teacup775
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

I’ll agree they are much more fun to tangle with, but they are also not much more to tangle with.

The mid sized orbs have stages. (Slow and) flank.

Jackal, who can minigun a player quickly and has a shield, but who is simply (slowed and) flanked. I’d like to see a variant where you have to blow off a limb and when the unit is destroyed, explode.

Hyenas are highly mobile and immune to cc, with a few minor ground attacks and eh.

Instead of mass cc and spawn spam, it’d be nice to have a pack for whom being tightly packed significantly adds to their threat and others for whom being spread out does (say they surround you and then can very effectively stun lock you or something else). Or a pack where one or two units stun lock you but have no direct damage and the rest can kill. In other cases, elites that are specifically and preferably more fun to melee kill, like lobbing off or destroying a leg or ones where getting inside a shield and up close and personal is a thing.

There’s also options like health link packs or shared defense (whom ever is being hit get’s defense redirected to them). One’s that are better shot or one shot stabbed from above etc.

Well, at the end of the day, this is still a horde shooter not a tactical shooter. I've made peace with the fact that it's never gonna be Halo. I'm just appreciative that I no longer feel like I'm choosing between fighting 'herd of hapless lambs' to 'torrent of rapid fire oneshot hellspawn' (latter usually during an elemental or physical enhancement sortie) and that I'm fighting something that is capable of fighting back within a reasonable level scale.

Plus, Hyenas being immune to CC and slightly stronger than normal enemies does have one nice benefit - it means that CC spam first-order-optimal strategies aren't sustainable at least, which is one step closer to ending the cheese meta. Now all we need is an equivalent for DPS abilities, bringing similar enemies into the late end of tileset gameplay and reworking weapons like the Arca Plasmor, Ignis Wraith and Amprex so you have reasons to use other weapons over them and we might actually get a game where players can't load into any public mission space and decide it's a farming run now regardless of what everyone else wants.

They still don't belong in the orb fights though. That much hasn't changed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Well, at the end of the day, this is still a horde shooter not a tactical shooter.

Reaper of Souls is not a tactical game and sport elite packs with sone of the game play element mentioned about.

Shooting hordes is boring. And I think de-Scott did mention adding different kinds of combat units in tactical potatoes stream with him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Reaper of Souls is not a tactical game and sport elite packs with sone of the game play element mentioned about.

Shooting hordes is boring. And I think de-Scott did mention adding different kinds of combat units in tactical potatoes stream with him.

Perhaps we will perhaps we won't. This turn towards more interesting enemies only started with PoE after all, so all in all we're on, what, the second iteration of their attempts to make enemies more interesting to fight (minus the Mimics in the Sacrifice, which I guess count).

Shooting hordes is only boring when it's the only thing you do. Even Dynasty Warriors knows this - a big chunk of the game is around managing the battlefield and dealing with bigger threats like commanders and officers, with the regular units serving as catalysts to those problems, mostly by capturing bases and preventing your own army (aka, your backup to the big fights) from advancing. That's sort of the balance I'd like to see in Warframe - OV is a big step in the right direction there. Not quite sure I like how dangerous the Arca Plasmor guys can be if you turn a corner or pass by tiny gaps they happen to be behind. Seems above their pay grade. And, again, Overtakers. Mostly, I don't like enemies that are very accurate and very damaging since, then, what're you supposed to do? In my mind, the more powerful something is, the easier it should be to avoid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2019-01-01 at 9:11 PM, Fiewel said:

I did the spider today a few times and encountered a ton of chromas. Than a party with 0 chromas but a Nyx. And some hours later (Im not constantly farming the spider) a Mirage. Both did very well IMO and didnt die more than a lot of "tank-frames". Might be they were kitted out to the max, no idea, I just wanted to note, that there are other frames out and they do well. Its not a lot though. In both cases we needed around 10 minutes, which is IMO good.

 

I've been trying to come up with my own method of fighting the spider+horde, avoiding meta as best i can. Using archwing and sniping from a distance, i've gotten it to a point where im great at popping the orb's shields... but useless for doing any damage to her armor. (at least till i get a gravimag on my velocitus, not sure if it'll do any good) I've had runs where i've managed to out dps 3 chroma p's in public, my record of holding ~80% overall damage. But none of that was where it mattered. All i could do was pop her shields and snipe out some of the horde.

As for seeing other frames, i've come across some interesting scenarios that made me proud of the community a bit. Had a slowva one run, and she all bout negated the horde, letting everyone focus more safely on the boss. 👍 Poor thing kept dieing tho..

Its quite unfortunate, however, that as interesting as some of the team comps i've seen... nothing compares to how fast the runs go with chroma primes in the party. Had one run last less then a couple minutes, with one chroma taking 64% of overall damage. Popping the shield faster then i could, and its armor faster then the other chromas could.

Being able to kit any frame to be tanky is one thing.. but at the end of the day, a well kitted Chroma Prime just trumps everyone else in this fight by a horrendous margin.

 

As for what i've found out about using archwing and sniping in this boss fight:

  • remaining at 300+ meters away from the orb mother takes you out of its effective aggro range. She doesn't target you, and her homing missiles wont lock onto you. Horde mobs will also ignore you at this distance. As they will only spawn within that range of the boss. This will keep you safe from any means of damage, but will also lock you out of being effective for anything other then sniping her shields when your weapon's damage types cycle round. If your skilled enough, you can also help snipe some of the mobs running around, as well as helping shoot out the alarm sticks the crewmen put down.
  • Itzel is great for this since its able to 'Blink' teleport in and out of situations. Allowing you to be helpful for breaking shield pylons.
  • Getting anywhere close to the fight for longer then a few seconds = death.
  • Everything you do.. means nothing if no one is there to do enough damage to her armor after the shield pops. So you'd have to setup a frame capable enough of surviving down around the orb's feet if your wanting to do the important damage.
  • (Going to test out the velocitus after i get it lvled and such. Lets hope it works!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been soloing Profit taker in the last couple days with a not 100% success rate.
The most annoying thing is getting staggered, knocked down all the time, even though I have [Sure Footed] equipped .
I know it's supposed to be difficult but it just boils my blood when I get CC'd every second.
The adds are really the lethal threat, I can't always keep my alert level down and since I solo I only summor a rhino specter to deal with the mobs,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...