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RuFi0

What about player synergy?

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I've been playing this game for about five years, and I've never had any real complaints. But for the first time, something about Warframe feels "off" - I wasn't satisfied after my missions, and I think it's because there isn't as much player interaction or synergy. It feels like I'm a solo player in a squad now.

The first thing I've noticed is that people don't stay long for anything anymore. The second thing is that players rarely play with each other now unless necessary. When the content is challenging, that's when players start to keep together and help each other out. We become a squad of Warframes using our powers to help the group go further, instead of a squad of individuals just winging it by ourselves.

So I guess I'm a bit disappointed because I get a lot of enjoyment out of synergizing with a squad and going the distance, as opposed to just popping in and running around by myself for a 15 minute mission.

I miss the good 'ole days of T4 void farms where we all went the distance and we all helped each other out and played together. What could be done going forward to encourage players to be a team and to be enticed by lengthy challenges?

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I think it's because as the playerbase has gotten older people are more concerned about efficiency than 'having fun' (which is inane since some people find fun in efficiency, or at least satisfaction).  As a result unless they are wanting a specific reward from an endless mission that drops at rotation C, they're likely to bail early from a combination of wanting a rotation A reward and not wanting to risk loss of progress due to connection/memory leak/server f-up etc.  Due to all the issues with conflict of play styles (resulting from simply having lots of options) that tend to rear their head in random matchmaking and the usual response being "recruitment chat exists for a reason", those people who want to run endless missions for as long as possible are further pushed into Clans/Alliances focused on doing so therefore removing themselves from the matchmaking pool which begins the cycle again.

All I can say is that if you want synergy and camaraderie like "the  good ol' days", then look for a group focused on that.  After years of seeing "recruitment chat exists for a reason" and trying to avoid using it I've finally said it.

If you also want an interesting perspective on solo play in MMOs I would recommend watching this GDC talk on the subject.  I tend to fall into the category of people who prefer solo play over rolling the dice with randoms that could make me pull my hair out, though I do not claim to speak for anyone else who also enjoys solo play.

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You shouldn't expect long endless missions from random people who have no obligation to oblige you. The ''recruitment chat exists for a reason'' may be an overused line, but that doesn't mean it isn't a valid one. When you want a certain experience, like ''going the distance'' you find people that want the same experience you do. That way you are assured to be getting what you want.

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Not been playing as long as you but understand your pov.  I play mostly with 2-3 friends I met through my clan so we can talk about what frames weapons etc we're bringing and help each other out etc.  When I go into a pug though it can be frustrating compared to my normal gameplay as the other three in the squad may as well be solo for the amount of team play they bring.  

Even in a pug though I try to be a team player, provide buffs, drop pizzas when needed, revive etc.  I have a range build chroma that gives better buffs than an umbrel rhino to everyone within about 20 meters that I like to bring for example.  Of course that's no good when your 3 squad mates run off to 3 different corners of the map in a desperate attempt to get the most kills.  So many players don't realise (or don't care) that staying together means more affinity, better spawn rates, more support etc.  Nothing worse than cracking relics in a survival when everyone is in a different corner of the map meaning you can't get enough reactant.  And I'm talking about mr20+ players, not just noobs.  

I don't expect anything from pubs though, usually 1 or more wants to leave at wave 5/5 mins and I go in with that mindset.  Sometimes you end up in a good squad though which is always a pleasant surprise.

If my friends aren't on and I want to do a decent length mission I never use recruitment though as that can be cess pit.   I just put a message in my clan/alliance chat and get a group that way, much friendlier imo.

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vor 59 Minuten schrieb RuFi0:

The first thing I've noticed is that people don't stay long for anything anymore.

So, my guess ist that you play public. If you are looking for a specific kind of gameplay it's incredibly stupid to think it's probable that you will be matched with 3 other players of the exact same preference.

For example,

currently on steam there should be around 40.000 players online (not counting the stand alone launcher users so this number is actually even bigger.

Now imagin a 40.000 sided dice. How problable is it, for you to throw it down 3 times and always have the same number on top? Huh?

That's what recruitment chat is for, or, hey, there are clans and friends....

vor einer Stunde schrieb RuFi0:

When the content is challenging, that's when players start to keep together and help each other out.

Well, duh... why risk running into connection issues and/or an ember in low level missions who drains all the fun out of the game by turning it into a walking simulator? Just to meet some random people on the internet?

vor einer Stunde schrieb RuFi0:

So I guess I'm a bit disappointed because I get a lot of enjoyment out of synergizing with a squad and going the distance, as opposed to just popping in and running around by myself for a 15 minute mission.

How do you even synergise with people assined to you at random????

vor einer Stunde schrieb RuFi0:

What could be done going forward to encourage players to be a team and to be enticed by lengthy challenges?

If you have to 'encourage' players to play longer sessions (for example by additional loot for longer runs) then these long runs are not fun to begin with and people only play them because they are more efficient.

Some might actually mbe in for the fun of breaking game mechanics through a certain combination of abilities, but being a sitting duck in a Frost bubble so you don't get sneezed to death by Level 1000 enemies isn't fun for most people, except of course you 'do it with friends' but even then everything can be fun with friends, even watching paint dry, so maybe, just maybe, 60+ minutes of breaking game mechanics isn't exacly fun to begin with?

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I'd say that an aspect of it is that a few too many frames and weapons are good at too many things at once. Ignis, Arca Plasmor, Artterax, Equinox, Volt and the like can be used in any situation and be pretty broadly effective, usually due to being able to wipe out entire areas with little risk. My Ignis doesn't need a full build to topple level 100+bombards with little effort. It has six mods and no forma because I refuse to take such a thing further than pure MR fodder.

Frames like Limbo lose effectiveness in some situations, in Limbo's case fast killing situations. Can Limbo succeed in exterminates, survivals and so on? Yeah, absolutely, but he won't succeed as well as Rhino or other more aggressive frames. There's areas of weakness and strength. Same goes for weapons like Tigris Prime, Tiberon Prime and Gram Prime, three weapons typically considered 'OP'. Tigris Prime has to reload almost every time you deal damage, leading to lots of downtime. Tiberon Prime only hits one target a lot of the time as even with punch-through, enemies need to be lined up properly to be able to get proper damage due to not having a spread like a shotgun does. Gram Prime has quite short range, being a melee weapon with reasonable reach (as opposed to, say, Atterax which can produce a 14 metre radius of death) requiring you to put yourself at risk of the other enemies shooting at you whilst killing. Even Redeemer Prime, for how OP people claim that is, loses a LOT of damage to falloff due both to inherent damage reduction and pellet spread. Plus if you want maximum burst damage you'll have to deal with its slow swing speed, which equates to low fire rate that slows down your first shot. As you may have noticed

With weapons like these, you can be powerful but still benefit from other players help, as you can leave situations your loadout doesn't excel in to them and vice versa. With all rounders as effective as we have, that can't happen.

For this reason, I'm for nerfing weapons like the Ignis, and also for introducing a few more enemies resistant to CC abilities like the Hyenas in OV are to tileset gameplay, so as to prevent any one player from being good at everything.

The exception to this should be Arch-guns. As what's supposed to be a 'oh yeah' power up moment, they should be extremely powerful and broadly effective due to having limited use. But they aren't.

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Some great replies in here. Walkampf, be civil and not so dismissive. When I read things like "it's incredibly stupid" and "well, duh", your points immediately become invalid to me. The only thing I will address from your post is the question of "how do you synergize with random people?" The answer is by being creative and understanding what everybody needs or wants. Maybe you're a person that closely follows a meta and therefore have a hard time understanding how someone can synergize with others without having to compare stats and follow a blueprint. This type of creative synergy takes reciprocation though.

Anyway, the "recruiting" chat reply is valid. I suppose I've never had to use the recruiting chat to get these experiences. When you play the same game for 5 years and enjoy it, sometimes it's hard to change your habits. I don't think I will use recruiting chat for things like that though, because I find that if I don't jump in WF and start playing right away, I will lose interest. I simply don't enjoy asking for a game experience, I would rather just jump in and have it happen naturally.

If I don't get to have said experience, I'm no worse for wear, but that doesn't mean I don't miss the times when I could simply jump in any mission and get the same satisfaction.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb RuFi0:

I've been playing this game for about five years, and I've never had any real complaints. But for the first time, something about Warframe feels "off" - I wasn't satisfied after my missions, and I think it's because there isn't as much player interaction or synergy. It feels like I'm a solo player in a squad now.

What? We got all these awesome co-op mechanics like:

  • Waiting for other players in an elevator
  • pressing 2 buttons at the same time to open a door
  • and recently - pressing 2 buttons at 2 consoles at the same time in the "Heist"-bounty
vor 1 Stunde schrieb (XB1)Hyperion Rexx:

Even in a pug though I try to be a team player, provide buffs, drop pizzas when needed, revive etc.  I have a range build chroma that gives better buffs than an umbrel rhino to everyone within about 20 meters that I like to bring for example

Ofc thats nice, but in 90% of the game this isnt needed at all, and like people here said already, it doesnt really make a difference if you play solo or in a group.

I dont care if i get a buff from anyone in a mission, because i simply dont need it and it doesnt make a difference.

 

I kinda feel stupid "promoting" a topic of mine, but ill do it now because i gathered some ideas there on how to include co-op gameplay that gives every player in a group something to do while its not too complicated so that you would be only able to do it if you would be communicating via TS for example. Feel free to check the topic and maybe add ideas there, i think if there is any chance a dev might stumble upon something, its in the feedback section. Just check the link in the spoiler and Point 4 in the first post.

Spoiler

 

 

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naysayers will always disagree but the fact is so obvious, relics killed team synergy and ushered in the pre dominant style of 5 mins Rambo. even the newer frames are beginning to be more of  single mantra than a team based frame.

there is always 1 rabbit in a group that the enemies are most aggressive towards, and 9/10 times in said group of players the rabbits choose to run all over the place taking the spawn mechanics and the enemies following behind. and for what it's worth 7/10 times they cant handle the onslaught thinking bullet jumping and rolling around is gonna help save them.

basically if youre looking for frame synergies in random group today  better give up on that cause it is as rare as vengeful revenant was back in the day.

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I admit I have only been playing for about 2 and a half years but I think part of the issue is on various play styles. The verity of frames has led to a verity of play styles and not all of them get along.

I’m sure you recall people just up and leaving squads upon seeing a limbo. At the time it’s not that he didn’t play well with others it’s that players didn’t know how to play him well with others, and he still sort of has that bad rep.  Then there are the various meta players that I personally don’t like playing with because chat tends to devolve into “if you don’t want to play for 60+ minutes then go use recruitment chat” or the ever popular “If you don’t use X build you should just play solo until you get it”.

The issue is also in part due to a lack of communication in game play. If you have a riven that needs say X kills in a row while undetected and one punch atlas comes charging in its likely you’re not going to get that done. I do find however that if you go into squad chat and are just upfront about what you want with your squad you get people who more often than not are ok with it. “hay I’m trying to get X kills in a row for a riven” or  “hay I’m looking to go 20 min, that cool?” and your mostly met with “ok” or “sure”. Did an Eidolon hunt a while back and someone asked “hay want to do a tridolon next?” and everyone was just like “mhe, sure why not” that said if there is no communication in any way shape or form made then it’s understandable why people leave. They could be looking for a single drop, maybe they are clearing star chart, maybe a friend logged on and they are off to play with them or some rl stuff came up and they need to go deal with it.

On the flip side, at least on console, are the people who just leave mic on all the time. Nothing like hearing someone yell at or get yelled at their family. Go a step further to a game I played where I rando’d into another squad with a gall and she and I started chatting on mic only to have another player start with the “go make me a sammich” or “take your clothes off”. Is this the norm, no but it does dampen the experience of wanting to stay in a squad. When I get people like that I mute and leave squad as soon as the mission is done, if they are also not meshing with my play style I bow out asap.

I will say to those asking how you can “synergize” with rando’s is a silly question. If your play styles mesh then its synergy. If your equipment happens to mesh too then that’s just a bonus. If everyone on an exterminate is playing ember and you all race to the exit with world on fire on I would say that can easily qualify as synergy because without saying anything you all had the same idea and it worked for your game play experience. If your filling a role your frame was built for “support, tank, dps etc.” and another person is filling a different role and playing it proper then you can synergize. Are you more likely to synergize with Pug then you are with a squad you hand build, of course not. But then a squad you hand build may not synergize either. Sure your equipment and frames may be perfect for each other but if someone’s play style doesn’t work then it doesn’t work. If all your trinity wants to do is link but you wanted an energy vampire then you may find that your hand build squad doesn’t work like you thought it would. There are pros and cons to both and its really up to you to decide which option you would rather take.

Solo, friends, hand built teams or random.

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@RuFi0

From my 4 years of public matchmaking. There really was not such thing as synergy.

And yes, long Void runs were a recruitment chat event only.

Warframe seems to encourage casual/short run game sessions. Outside of Kuva endless missions, there is not incentive to stay on public missions longer than anyone agrees to, if they even agree.

Nothing has changed. When I was first started playing Warframe I was playing endless Void runs with the players that introduced me to Warframe.
After they fell off the hype a few months later, I was left at the mercy public matchmaking. So yeah, perspective is the only thing that has changed, nothing more.

Needless to say, I have met great players through public matchmaking, and by great I mean fun to play along.

What you are looking for is a Clan, or friends that have the same mindset as yours when it comes to play sessions.

Use the forums to find them, they are out there, just having the same problems you have, and hoping to find players just like you.

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hace 3 minutos, Souldend78 dijo:

@RuFi0

From my 4 years of public matchmaking. There really was not such thing as synergy.

And yes, long Void runs were a recruitment chat event only.

Warframe seems to encourage casual/short run game sessions. Outside of Kuva endless missions, there is not incentive to stay on public missions longer than anyone agrees to, if they even agree.

Nothing has changed. When I was first started playing Warframe I was playing endless Void runs with the players that introduced me to Warframe.
After they fell off the hype a few months later, I was left at the mercy public matchmaking. So yeah, perspective is the only thing that has changed, nothing more.

Needless to say, I have met great players through public matchmaking, and by great I mean fun to play along.

What you are looking for is a Clan, or friends that have the same mindset as yours when it comes to play sessions.

Use the forums to find them, they are out there, just having the same problems you have, and hoping to find players just like you.

You should start playing at 3:00 am when the lifeless degenerates like me wake up, 1 hour runs are more common in that time of the night

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I have one good friend in this game, we get along really well and our playstyles always compliment one another. Beyond our synergy as players, we also build our frames to support one another. 

Sometimes he will run a High Strengthh Roar Rhino when I run Volt, or Ill run a trinity while he runs a high energy cost build.

Last run we did we ran counterpart tigris to cover all damage types just to feel prepared. 

I think it’s about finding players and building relationships. You will rarely find syngergy playing with public or recruiting people for a single cause. You have to just start taking with people and nurturing a geekmance.

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14 minutes ago, (PS4)ZERO_ghost90 said:

You should start playing at 3:00 am when the lifeless degenerates like me wake up, 1 hour runs are more common in that time of the night

I wake around that time everyday nowadays. An hour later I play a few runs, still uncommon to get into those 1 hour runs. But then again, different platforms, or the fact you are in a 1 hour long run and miss out on all the other quick in and out runs might have some weight as well.

For clarity, I should use uncommon, since, lets be honest, at some point you will find players that would like an hour run, even if it takes you the whole week per each 1 hour run.

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3 hours ago, Loza03 said:

Frames like Limbo lose effectiveness in some situations, in Limbo's case fast killing situations. Can Limbo succeed in exterminates, survivals and so on? Yeah, absolutely, but he won't succeed as well as Rhino or other more aggressive frames.

This made me smile because i made a Mesa rage in chat with my post nerf nuke Limbo build.

Ofc. this wasn't sortie exterminate, just a fissure, depends on the enemy levels more than anything.

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1 minute ago, kgabor said:

This made me smile because i made a Mesa rage in chat with my post nerf nuke Limbo build.

Ofc. this wasn't sortie exterminate, just a fissure, depends on the enemy levels more than anything.

Oh yeah. At low levels (varying based on faction - I found this working on Jupiter or more with a build not intended for this, but Grineer stop being subsceptible faster) Limbo can indeed nuke, but I'm kind of assuming mid-high levels here.:tongue:

It is extremely satisfying to kill enemies with a wave of your hand though. Very 'magic'.

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I greatly enjoyed doing epic raids for hours with friends or random players - DE should really look into bringing such content to Warframe.😉

 

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hace 6 minutos, Shadow-Spawn dijo:

I greatly enjoyed doing epic raids for hours with friends or random players - DE should really look into bringing such content to Warframe.😉

 

I managed to get invited to a law of retribution once, it was full of elitism, insults, players going down and more elitist trash, i actually loved it, it was an inmersive experience ( not sarcasm, it made the game feel more real, we were real people on a mission)

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6 hours ago, RuFi0 said:

It feels like I'm a solo player in a squad now

That's exactly what it is.

Not sure how you experienced the kind of synergies you mention, but for me that is an extremely rare occasion when playing with randoms. I end up mostly playing just solo by myself, rather than playing solo with others as you describe ( I don't see any advantage on squadding up with randoms unless chasing very specific goals where efficiency makes a big difference, such as XP farming, relic cracking, etc ).

The solution to that problem seems to be, well, to make friends. Or use recruitment, which can lead to making friends along the way too.

I hope one day DE figures out how to improve match making so that the process of getting into a squad of people that share the same goals and are like minded is easier.

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32 minutes ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

Players don't even use mics and you want synergy?  

Well, on the PC side, people barely use mic at all. In fact it's almost taboo. It's been that way for so long that everyone goes "WTF?!" when someone just randomly speaks in a squad, because it's so unusual for long-time PC players to hear.

So here's what I've gathered so far on ideas and opinions:

-Relics may or may not have killed off some of the fun for certain players

-If you want a certain experience use recruiting channel

- Warframe's playstyle encourages shorter runs

- Synergy is more of a human connection rather than a game feature

^^ adding to that last point, maybe that's why I'm feeling a bit disappointed. Maybe "synergy" is the wrong word, after all. Maybe "connection" is what I wanted. Not in the "ok go join a clan for connection" way. But in a "we are awesome together!" way. When everyone is working well together, everyone seems to be having much more fun. Connection through the satisfaction of synergy, I guess.

I guess I forget that not everyone thinks like me or plays games the same way. Some people just want to murder things and don't care about synergy or other people, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Question: Warframe is a game that can do anything, so do you think going forward, Warframe is going to have to make game-modes more specific to each play-style? It seems that the bigger and more wide-spread this game gets, the more ambiguous the gameplay becomes. Sometimes "Do whatever you want" can become frustrating for people who want to fill a specific role and fill it well.

For instance, If the profit-taker missions were really like the "Ocean's 11" style (needing detailed planning and everyone filling their specific role) I would have been super into this. Maybe in the future DE can make more game-modes that need people playing best in their class/role, as opposed to everyone being able to do anything.

Maybe instead of more content for people to simply play, warframe needs more content for all of us to play together.

Or maybe, just Maybe, DE needs to give vauban the ability to dispense ammo, energy, and sentries, and I will truly feel fulfilled in synergizing with my squad 😛

 

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)ZERO_ghost90 said:

I managed to get invited to a law of retribution once, it was full of elitism, insults, players going down and more elitist trash, i actually loved it, it was an inmersive experience ( not sarcasm, it made the game feel more real, we were real people on a mission)

I guess, you will always find some elitists in raids, if they are in very difficult raid content, but if you have different levels of raid difficulty then most players can clear the easiest ones with no problems and the best players can clear the ones on nightmare difficulty 😉

It's a fun, challenging and more social experience, that improves your skills and play style - and it usually takes +1hour.

 

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>people want solo capable content.

>Get's reeee'd at because people are drifting away from co-op

>Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't DE

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2 hours ago, LupisV0lk said:

>people want solo capable content.

Now a days this needs to happen in all games. As lifestyle & culture has changed.

Not everyone has the time for group content & games that focus too much on only group content sink or struggle with retention.

2 hours ago, LupisV0lk said:

>Get's reeee'd at because people are drifting away from co-op

Man...you should see the Destiny forums. A thread there is labeled: "Hey Bungie, can we have the OPTION to turn off MM so we can do Strikes solo"

The thread is full of folks screaming at the OP telling them to delete the game, quit the game, "Game is co-op. If you want to solo get lost."

(Ironically...I invited that OP to Warframe & they are loving it & the community.)

Now folks in Destiny are like: "Where is everybody?" "Daily player #s are dropping."

I just say..."Hey, don't you remember telling them to leave the game? You know...because they wanted Options or to do things that wasn't in your playstyle? Because they asked to remove Cores?"

Well they took your advice.

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Yea..  I think nuke frames should only be capable of nuking with player synergy... 

Other frames get some nice things too..  Make playing as a group more interactive not because you have to but because your abilities work that much better when you do. 

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