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Discussion on Tweaking Limbo


DrakeWurrum
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I have thoroughly enjoyed the Limbo frame. I used him even before they changed it so that he could slide into and out of the Rift as a passive. And now I have the Prime variant, as many others do. I've had difficulty with the newer design, so I haven't touched him as much as I used to, but I'm adjusting now that I'm finally giving him a more serious try.

However, one thing strikes me as frustrating and... jarring. How Rift Surge works.
I know what it does, and I know how to use it. It just feels particularly jarring and, dare I say, flawed. This is the ability that most confuses/frustrates new Limbo players when trying to learn him. It comes down to a couple things: the duration, how it gets consumed, and how we apply it.
When I say "consumed," I mean how after Rift Surge activates, you then will have to re-cast Rift Surge to do it again because it's charge has been used up.
When I say "how we apply it," I mean how proper usage of the Rift calls for us to apply TWO abilities - Stasis and Rift Surge both. In this sense, the two abilities have a shared purpose of controlling enemies.

I am additionally bothered by the way Rift Surge will jump to an enemy in the material plane without doing anything. When I first noticed this, I thought this was a bug, but I eventually realized that Rift Surge doesn't trigger unless you Banish them first. This feels awkward to me.

So I wanted to ask the community of Limbo players for their thoughts on a couple suggestions, or at least their thoughts on the current Rift Surge. I want to preface by saying that I'm not complaining about Limbo, per se. And I'm not saying "this would make him better!" He is fun, and his kit already works. Rift Surge isn't some useless ability that NEEDS to change. I just want to know, from other players, what would you think if one of (or a combination of) these ideas of mine were implemented. 

  1. Rift Surge becomes a toggle effect that drains energy to constantly apply it's affect to Rifted enemies. Thus, while you keep it active, any enemy you push out of the Rift with Banish will perform the radial Banish caused by Rift Surge. Perhaps it could even drain more energy the more enemies it affects, encouraging you to not keep too many enemies in the Rift at once.
  2. Rift Surge simply no longer has a duration - whether the charge jumps because a target dies, or whether you use Banish on it, Rift Surge simply stays on an enemy until it dies, applying it's radial Banish effect whenever it's in the material plane.
  3. Rift Surge gets baked into the Stasis ability and Limbo gets a new third ability to replace it, though it could just keep the same name, depending on how the ability is designed. One example: The current augment becomes the third ability as a one-time %damage increase based on the number of Rifted enemies, affecting allies and lasting for a duration (or a flat increase, with duration increased by the number of enemies). Or perhaps Rift Surge causes all Rifted enemies to explode, dealing damage+knockdown to nearby enemies regardless of which plane they're in (similar in design to Smite with seeking missiles).
    The main benefit here is that we tend to use Stasis and Rift Surge together anyways. My suggested replacement would give utility that interacts with the Rift in ways different from both Stasis and Rift Surge - instead of applying power to enemies in the Rift, we draw power from enemies in the Rift. There's other ways that can be done than my suggested replacement, however.
  4. Stasis gets baked into the Rift. The time stopping effect is always in effect on enemies in the Rift. Rift Surge is left alone and Limbo gets a new 2nd ability instead. Again, the idea for a new ability would be to draw power from enemies in the Rift rather than applying power to them.
    The point to this would be that you no longer have to keep an eye on Stasis being active or devote energy to it. If an enemy is in the Rift, they're frozen, and you can focus on the gameplay of pushing/dragging more enemies into the Rift through Banish and Rift Surge chaining. This wouldn't solve issues with Rift Surge, but would make things less problematic.

Example combination: Rift Surge gets combined into Stasis, and Stasis becomes a toggle effect that simply negates the Rift's passive energy gain, forcing you to kill enemies to gain more energy (but Stasis could remain constantly in effect if you simply don't spend any energy and don't hit 0).
Or: Stasis gets baked into the Rift - all enemies in the Rift are frozen. The Rift Surge charge is no longer becomes consumed when the target is Banished, staying on enemies until they die, or the duration runs out. It still only applies to enemies in the Rift on the initial cast.

Again, I don't necessarily think Limbo NEEDS to change. I'm no Limbo expert, and I do enjoy current Limbo. I'm just wondering if other Limbo players think any of these ideas could make it more fun to play, or if they would hate it, or perhaps their own thoughts on how Limbo could be tweaked. Maybe DE can see this feedback and take it into consideration next time they look at Limbo.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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4 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Rift Surge becomes a toggle effect that drains energy to constantly apply it's affect to Rifted enemies. Thus, while you keep it active, any enemy you push out of the Rift with Banish will perform the radial Banish caused by Right Surge. Perhaps it could even drain more energy the more enemies it affects, encouraging you to not keep too many enemies in the Rift at once.

Unless the toggle En/s is very low youll result in a weird scenario where building for high efficiency results in rapid firing banishes that will kill everyone out the rift. The concept is flawed as Limbo spends a lot of energy as is and a consistent drain on top of consistent casting can easily turn people away from using his 3 at all if it hurts his survivability.

While its also very team friendly its also somehow a detriment to use it.

 

4 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Rift Surge simply no longer has a duration - whether the charge jumps because a target dies, or whether you use Banish on it, Rift Surge simply stays on an enemy until it dies, applying it's radial Banish effect whenever it's in the material plane.

The most economical choice for Limbo but not the party, the opposite of the above issue that its jumping to a random target and banishing the enemies/y outside of your immediate vision on average which due to the low bloom visibility of the rift results in confusion in pugs. 

But it helps the limbo tremendously as it can almost automatically map banish in may 2 or 3 casts. The death count would refund the costs and maybe even almost neutralize the use of his 4.

 

4 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The main benefit here is that we tend to use Stasis and Rift Surge together anyways

The benefit of keeping these 2 separate is that there are things you dont want walking into the rift, usually in higher survival or level 5 Orb Valis it gets very bad if certain mobs are allowed to go free or certain mobs are unintentionally invited into the rift since they can mess with the stasis timer by shortening it. 

4 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

One example: The current augment becomes the third ability as a one-time %damage increase based on the number of Rifted enemies, affecting allies and lasting for a duration

Thid used to be his 3rd sans the affecting allies thing, which torrent SHOULD do but itll go the way of chroma if it does. 

 

The thing is Limbo needs a way to control both banishing and ccing, merging stasis with RS results in rapid removal and reapplication of stasis which can get him killed. Theres also reasons why youd want to simply allow mooks to roam free in the rift/cataclysm with a coordinated party to avoid the aptly called -Fly Paper Problem- which that adjustment would pronounce.

 

The only way to fix limbo is to fix the rift or make him give up the ability to control who comes into the rift (rift surge) causing him to have a more erratic play style for a 3rd ability that may not assist too well. 

Tbh i dont think their is a fix unless you tie rift surge to banish and give banished mobs 2-3 charges of radial banishment. Leaving room for a 3rd slot and not saccing control of emergency CC.

Maybe make the rule that if a target is in the rift, any roll will pull an ally in as well.

 

Id make his 3 a team wide damage boost for as long as an enemy is in the rift but at the cost of dragging you into the rift until all enemies are dead and it cannot be casted outside the rift. But thats subject to trolling somehow.

Edited by (PS4)psycofang
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11 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Tbh i dont think their is a fix unless you tie rift surge to banish and give banished mobs 2-3 charges of radial banishment. Leaving room for a 3rd slot and not saccing control of emergency CC.

I figured that would make more sense, but on some level, I felt like it should be separate from the basic Banish.

 

11 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

The benefit of keeping these 2 separate is that there are things you dont want walking into the rift, usually in higher survival or level 5 Orb Valis it gets very bad if certain mobs are allowed to go free or certain mobs are unintentionally invited into the rift since they can mess with the stasis timer by shortening it. 

Well that's only really a benefit if Rift Surge is an effect that gets removed. But the idea would be that even if the Surge gets removed, the time stop wouldn't. It would kinda suck if the only way to reapply the Surge effect would be to remove and re-apply Stasis. So I figure if the 3rd suggestion is implemented, we'd either want it as a neutral-cost toggle or a permanent effect on any enemy it's applied to.

Alternatively, the Stasis effect could become a default effect of the Rift for all enemies inside it, and Limbo could get a different 2nd ability. Maybe then we could just leave Rift Surge as is?
It does feel a little jarring to have to cast two abilities (both 1 and 2) for enemies to be properly CCed...

So maybe the problem isn't how we use Rift Surge to pull more enemies into the Rift, but how we have to apply Stasis separately from Banishing an enemy.

11 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Thid used to be his 3rd sans the affecting allies thing, which torrent SHOULD do but itll go the way of chroma if it does. 

I was thinking that the current augment only giving a 30% boost at max rank would make it more like the Rhino's damage buff, though conditional. So I figure either the damage should scale with the number of enemies in the Rift at the time of casting, or it should increase the duration of a flat boost based on the number of enemies in the Rift.

The damage boost is just one idea, though, and probably the least original implementation of a new ability. It could be all sorts of things - damage reduction, healing, energy regeneration, speed increase, shields. Some useful form of utility.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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Combining surge and stasis would be very boring, in my opinion. Lots of times I don't want enemies to be frozen, but having the option for that CC is very nice. 

I think the best option for adjusting Rift surge is to allow Limbo to use banish on any enemy effected by Rift surge regardless of which plane he or they are currently occupying. Or, at the least, just make banish work on surged enemies in the material plane while Limbo is in the Rift plane.  You may have to recast surge a lot, but killing surged enemies wouldn't become a problem with using the ability. Removing duration and making it a permanent debuff until consumed with a banish would also be a huge boost to it's utility. That would become a true Rift management ability that would allow Limbo to control so is or is not in the Rift, controlled by stasis, while giving him great survivability by not needing to leave the Rift. 

 

Off-topic edit: what do you all think about changing the visual effects of banished enemies? Sometimes, in the chaotic heat of battle, it can be difficult to recognize whether or not an enemy is in the Rift or not, simply because the effect is too subtle. What about changing it so that any enemy in a different plane is a solid, power-colored, silhouette. So if you can recognize the enemy, you can shoot the enemy. Too often I see allies shooting or meleeing enemies in a different plane, getting frustrated. I think 90% of the reason I use stasis is to make it more obvious that a guy is in the Rift so people don't waste their time on a target they can't hit. And I know I've died a number of times because I got distracted and didn't quickly notice who is in which plane and shift to try and save myself only to get killed by the guy I'm trying to escape. 

Edited by WhisperBiscuit
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4 hours ago, WhisperBiscuit said:

Combining surge and stasis would be very boring, in my opinion. Lots of times I don't want enemies to be frozen, but having the option for that CC is very nice. 

I don't think I've encountered such a situation as Limbo yet. Because if they're not frozen, they can hit me in the Rift, and I really don't want that. The Rift is where I go to be safe!
I take it you wouldn't like the idea of baking the Stasis effect into the Rift itself.

4 hours ago, WhisperBiscuit said:

I think the best option for adjusting Rift surge is to allow Limbo to use banish on any enemy effected by Rift surge regardless of which plane he or they are currently occupying.

I think part of the original Limbo redesign was to try to encourage Limbo players to switch planes more. Used to be you could Banish them no matter which plane you were on, but I think it was single-target.

4 hours ago, WhisperBiscuit said:

Off-topic edit: what do you all think about changing the visual effects of banished enemies? Sometimes, in the chaotic heat of battle, it can be difficult to recognize whether or not an enemy is in the Rift or not, simply because the effect is too subtle. What about changing it so that any enemy in a different plane is a solid, power-colored, silhouette. So if you can recognize the enemy, you can shoot the enemy. Too often I see allies shooting or meleeing enemies in a different plane, getting frustrated. I think 90% of the reason I use stasis is to make it more obvious that a guy is in the Rift so people don't waste their time on a target they can't hit. And I know I've died a number of times because I got distracted and didn't quickly notice who is in which plane and shift to try and save myself only to get killed by the guy I'm trying to escape.

Making it easier to tell which enemies are Rifted would ease a LOT of the frustration with Limbo for the entire playerbase, I think. Playing with him, or as him.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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personally, i think stasis needs to be a rift affect by default, energy is consumed per enemy banished, rift portals need to appear in front of limbo when banish is casted, and the stasis ability is replaced with some kind of massive un-banish where every enemy within the rift and not within cataclysm is forced back to the material plain.

Edited by MysticDragonMage
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9 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I don't think I've encountered such a situation as Limbo yet. Because if they're not frozen, they can hit me in the Rift, and I really don't want that. The Rift is where I go to be safe!
I take it you wouldn't like the idea of baking the Stasis effect into the Rift itself.

I think part of the original Limbo redesign was to try to encourage Limbo players to switch planes more. Used to be you could Banish them no matter which plane you were on, but I think it was single-target.

That makes sense. His original mechanic was before my time. And I think a lot of my reasoning behind the interplanar banishing with Rift surge is mostly a result of the ease at which you can lose track of which plane the enemies occupy, since it's not so easy to tell. So staying in one plane cuts down on that confusion significantly. 

Considering that, I could actually get behind the stasis/Rift surge combination, especially if it was easy to tell which plane people were in. So only the enemies with the Rift surge charge are effected by stasis. But the surge Propagates like spore, with a much smaller range, and to everyone regardless of plane. So killing enemies spreads the charges consistently, with all Rift bound enemies, with the charge, in stasis. Then banishing the material plane guys, with a charge, would perform the radial banish (but surge would need to be cast again, or a nearby enemy would have to be killed, to recharge them with the Rift surge), and they would be frozen in stasis, if possibly for a shorter period of time. 

That solves my beef with Rift surge transferring to material plane enemies, which is a rather useless effect (other than the augments damage boost). Anyone who would be hit by Rift surge's radial banish would, likely, also be hit by banish itself. Baking the two skills together would stasis-freeze enemies hit by the radial banish, where as enemies banished without a surge charge, and not by the radial, would not be frozen. Until a nearby enemy was killed, propogating the surge, or by recasting the ability. 

Edited by WhisperBiscuit
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18 hours ago, WhisperBiscuit said:

Off-topic edit: what do you all think about changing the visual effects of banished enemies? Sometimes, in the chaotic heat of battle, it can be difficult to recognize whether or not an enemy is in the Rift

Best way to do this is give mooks a stasis fuzz full body coating to ensure all parties are aware theyre in the rift.

 

This soft fire isnt telling enough on the average glace.

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On 2018-12-30 at 1:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

and the stasis ability is replaced with some kind of massive un-banish where every enemy within the rift and not within cataclysm is forced back to the material plain.

Seems a little redundant, since Banish can already send targets back to the material plane, so long as you're in the Rift with 'em.

On 2018-12-30 at 1:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

rift portals need to appear in front of limbo when banish is casted

Why? I personally find the portals a bit annoying. It seems like the portal from our passive is nice for players who want to follow us into the Rift on purpose for the energy gains, but I think the portals are more annoying than useful. I tend to run through by accident without ever realizing the portal is there, even on Limbo.

On 2018-12-30 at 1:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

energy is consumed per enemy banished

Not sure there'd be a point to that. Limbo feels somewhat energy heavy right now, and the energy gains from the Rift is meant to help counter that. Once I got the hang of chaining Banish and Rift Surge to drag more and more enemies into the Rift, I started running out of energy regularly.

On 2018-12-30 at 1:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

i think stasis needs to be a rift affect by default

At this point, I'm thinking this would be the ideal way to tweak Limbo. It would make Banish into a full-fledged CC, rather than just step 1 of a 2-button CC.
 

On 2018-12-30 at 8:10 AM, (PS4)psycofang said:

Best way to do this is give mooks a stasis fuzz full body coating to ensure all parties are aware theyre in the rift.

 

This soft fire isnt telling enough on the average glace.

In our chosen energy color, naturally. Though I kinda wish they could be covered in an effect similar to Rift Surge. That was a big source of confusion before I figured out that Rift Surge could jump to targets NOT in the Rift.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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11 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:
On 2018-12-30 at 2:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

and the stasis ability is replaced with some kind of massive un-banish where every enemy within the rift and not within cataclysm is forced back to the material plain.

Seems a little redundant, since Banish can already send targets back to the material plane, so long as you're in the Rift with 'em.

it would be useful because it would not require the limbo player to be in the rift in order to unbanish someone and it would be usful in case your team is tired of all the banished enemies. plus it would apply more utilization to surge as it is now.

11 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:
On 2018-12-30 at 2:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

rift portals need to appear in front of limbo when banish is casted

Why? I personally find the portals a bit annoying. It seems like the portal from our passive is nice for players who want to follow us into the Rift on purpose for the energy gains, but I think the portals are more annoying than useful. I tend to run through by accident without ever realizing the portal is there, even on Limbo.

the rift portals would allow players easy access to the rift without limbo banishing them or finding a portal that isn't even near the enemies banished. thus players would be less annoyed when they cant kill these enemies. one of the big reasons why limbo is so controversial is because he has top teir CC with the risk of invulnerable enemies on an opposite plain.

11 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:
On 2018-12-30 at 2:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

energy is consumed per enemy banished

Not sure there'd be a point to that. Limbo feels somewhat energy heavy right now, and the energy gains from the Rift is meant to help counter that. Once I got the hang of chaining Banish and Rift Surge to drag more and more enemies into the Rift, I started running out of energy regularly.

this is compensation for the the removal of stasis as an ability that must be recast-ed consistently. it would be unbalanced if enemies were infinitely in stasis without the risk of limbo loosing energy in the process.

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On 2018-12-31 at 12:45 PM, MysticDragonMage said:

it would be useful because it would not require the limbo player to be in the rift in order to unbanish someone and it would be usful in case your team is tired of all the banished enemies. plus it would apply more utilization to surge as it is now.

I'm not entirely sure that's an issue. But I can see what you mean.

Maybe if the ability was something like drawing power from enemies in the Rift to boost your damage by a percentage and forcibly ejecting them from it at the same time, that could work. (An ability named Rift Ejection sounds neat)

 

On 2018-12-31 at 12:45 PM, MysticDragonMage said:

the rift portals would allow players easy access to the rift without limbo banishing them or finding a portal that isn't even near the enemies banished. thus players would be less annoyed when they cant kill these enemies. one of the big reasons why limbo is so controversial is because he has top teir CC with the risk of invulnerable enemies on an opposite plain.

I see the point to the portals, but I feel like it isn't needed when they're not immune to warframe abilities. It's also not really the case that enemies are permanently stuck in the Rift with the current kit.
 

On 2018-12-31 at 12:45 PM, MysticDragonMage said:

this is compensation for the the removal of stasis as an ability that must be recast-ed consistently. it would be unbalanced if enemies were infinitely in stasis without the risk of limbo loosing energy in the process.

I can see the logic in that, but it seems like that would make it far too tough to effectively use Limbo. Right now his major energy cost isn't Stasis, but Rift Surge.
What if just being in the Rift drained Limbo's energy, instead of the passive energy gain he has now? What if allies being in the Rift drained Limbo's energy? 

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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On 2018-12-30 at 4:05 AM, WhisperBiscuit said:

That makes sense. His original mechanic was before my time. And I think a lot of my reasoning behind the interplanar banishing with Rift surge is mostly a result of the ease at which you can lose track of which plane the enemies occupy, since it's not so easy to tell. So staying in one plane cuts down on that confusion significantly. 

Considering that, I could actually get behind the stasis/Rift surge combination, especially if it was easy to tell which plane people were in. So only the enemies with the Rift surge charge are effected by stasis. But the surge Propagates like spore, with a much smaller range, and to everyone regardless of plane. So killing enemies spreads the charges consistently, with all Rift bound enemies, with the charge, in stasis. Then banishing the material plane guys, with a charge, would perform the radial banish (but surge would need to be cast again, or a nearby enemy would have to be killed, to recharge them with the Rift surge), and they would be frozen in stasis, if possibly for a shorter period of time. 

That solves my beef with Rift surge transferring to material plane enemies, which is a rather useless effect (other than the augments damage boost). Anyone who would be hit by Rift surge's radial banish would, likely, also be hit by banish itself. Baking the two skills together would stasis-freeze enemies hit by the radial banish, where as enemies banished without a surge charge, and not by the radial, would not be frozen. Until a nearby enemy was killed, propogating the surge, or by recasting the ability. 

What I've been thinking lately from this discussion, playing more with Limbo, and even watching some Youtubers videos on playing Limbo or Limbo design...

I'm actually not so sure about combining Rift Surge with Stasis now. I feel like the best option for a Limbo redesign would be to redesign him as follows:

  1. Stasis is baked into the Rift. Enemies in the Rift have their time stopped by default, no need to cast any ability besides Banish.
  2. Rift Surge is no longer consumed by Banish, but still has a duration. This way, you can chain Banish casts to keep dragging more enemies into the Rift, and the effect will propagate onto new enemies every time - but the duration doesn't ever reset. Eventually the effect runs out and you have to re-apply it (which you can still only do to enemies in the Rift). This also means that enemies won't be permanently stuck in the Rift, which can cause problems in certain situations - both Rift Surge and Banish would eventually run out.
  3. If Rift Surge somehow propagates to a target on the material plane, it instantly becomes banished - but it doesn't proc a radial Banish like if you had manually triggered the Surge effect
  4. Limbo gets a new 2nd ability that draws power from all enemies in the Rift - this could grant a %damage increase, damage reduction, or shields, or energy regeneration for the whole team, etc. I'm leaning towards the damage boost and junking the Rift Surge augment. This ability would also forcibly eject enemies from the Rift and consume the Rift Surge effect.
    It would actually be cool if this ability both increased damage dealt and either provided major damage reduction, or at least a major shield buffer. Thus Limbo gameplay has him occasionally leaving the Rift to really tear things up rather than always hiding in the Rift. (maybe while that buff is active, even material plane enemies grant Limbo energy?)

This would mean that if Limbo's goal is to CC the enemy, he can keep focusing on that more easily. And since all Rifted enemies are frozen in time, he doesn't have to worry about being attacked while in the Rift. (That sounds a bit too god mode, so I'm wondering if Limbo being in the Rift like that would then need to DRAIN energy, rather than regenerate it)
But then if you want to use the damage boost, that will break your CC chaining as a trade-off. Sort of like you're switching from CCing to killing.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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would you be ok if you couldnt shoot out of vaubans bastille?  then why for the love of this game and the Very principle of cooperation do you think it is ok that players playing with a limbo cant... what about frosts globe or garas wall or khoras jungle gym... end this madness and pro limbo bias DE (i know its a cool effect but try to keep patince after the 999th limbo afker... dear lord plz delete my account i dont have the strength to do so myself becuase i actually like 99% of this game

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13 hours ago, dyewithasmile said:

would you be ok if you couldnt shoot out of vaubans bastille?  then why for the love of this game and the Very principle of cooperation do you think it is ok that players playing with a limbo cant... what about frosts globe or garas wall or khoras jungle gym... end this madness and pro limbo bias DE (i know its a cool effect but try to keep patince after the 999th limbo afker... dear lord plz delete my account i dont have the strength to do so myself becuase i actually like 99% of this game

Abilities still work, though I guess not every frame can kill with abilities.

I don't think I've ever actually encountered a "limbo afker" so I can't really empathize with your frustration. I do sometimes end up trying to kill enemies on the opposite plane from me, which can be a little frustrating, but only a little.

I'm honestly 50/50 when it comes to whether or not we should be able to shoot enemies in the Rift. My only real beef with the way it works is partially how it could be used as a griefing tool, but mostly how it can really confuse players. You go to shoot an enemy, and realize it's not taking any damage... you're gonna be confused. From a design perspective, the only real justification I can think of to change this aspect of it is that it's not really fair to force players work around somebody else's mechanics - which you don't have any control over.
This is why I think enemies in the Rift simply need to be more obvious about it. The current effects are too subtle.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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On 2018-12-30 at 2:02 AM, MysticDragonMage said:

and the stasis ability is replaced with some kind of massive un-banish where every enemy within the rift and not within cataclysm is forced back to the material plain.

I would actually prefer the simpler solution of just giving Banish a button-hold that unbanishes everything.

That is, unless the unbanish comes with a strong enough secondary effect that warrants an ability slot. Something like "Removes all targets in the Rift while leaving enemy weapons Rifted for (x) seconds" preventing their ability to attack until it wears off. Or better yet, since he doesn't need more cc, "Violently forces enemies from the Rift, dealing increasing damage for each enemy removed this way".

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2 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

anyways rift surge has uses

It has uses, but it should still be better for a 3rd ability. With the insane radius on Cataclysm and cone from Banish, Rift Surge is largely unnecessary without the augment except for when it comes to Nullifiers. Right now it's more of a contagious form of Banish that makes your teammates more likely to hate you, so it's better used far from them or while solo.

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I would actually prefer the simpler solution of just giving Banish a button-hold that unbanishes everything.

That is, unless the unbanish comes with a strong enough secondary effect that warrants an ability slot. Something like "Removes all targets in the Rift while leaving enemy weapons Rifted for (x) seconds" preventing their ability to attack until it wears off. Or better yet, since he doesn't need more cc, "Violently forces enemies from the Rift, dealing increasing damage for each enemy removed this way".

i agree with both points made. one or the other would be fair.

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I'm sorry if this has already been said, but it's late, I'm falling asleep and thought about trying to participate.

 

How about rift surge gets a shorter duration, and any enemies currently in the rift have banish cast on them.

 

For instance, a two guyw are in cataclysm, and you kill one while you have rift surge on, his buddy remains in the rift as if you cast banish on him, even though you shut down cataclysm.

 

Hope it makes sense.  I'm going to sleep. Good night!

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1 hour ago, Sunai_Moonswing said:

For instance, a two guyw are in cataclysm, and you kill one while you have rift surge on, his buddy remains in the rift as if you cast banish on him, even though you shut down cataclysm.

Rift surge already does that if i read that correctly. If both guys are in the rift they are already surged. 

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On 2019-01-04 at 10:10 AM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I would actually prefer the simpler solution of just giving Banish a button-hold that unbanishes everything.

That is, unless the unbanish comes with a strong enough secondary effect that warrants an ability slot. Something like "Removes all targets in the Rift while leaving enemy weapons Rifted for (x) seconds" preventing their ability to attack until it wears off. Or better yet, since he doesn't need more cc, "Violently forces enemies from the Rift, dealing increasing damage for each enemy removed this way".

That's pretty much what I was thinking would work. Sacrifice your powerful CC effect, gain a lot of power in return. Fun trade-off requiring strategy.
It could be something that just flat-out damages the ejected enemies, or grants a powerful buff maybe. Too much of Libmo's kit is focused on simply making the Rift effective at all.

This is what I currently would love to see for a Limbo tweak/redesign:

On 2019-01-01 at 10:14 PM, DrakeWurrum said:
  1. Stasis is baked into the Rift. Enemies in the Rift have their time stopped by default, no need to cast any ability besides Banish.
  2. Rift Surge is no longer consumed by Banish, but still has a duration. This way, you can chain Banish casts to keep dragging more enemies into the Rift, and the effect will propagate onto new enemies every time - but the duration doesn't ever reset. Eventually the effect runs out and you have to re-apply it (which you can still only do to enemies in the Rift). This also means that enemies won't be permanently stuck in the Rift, which can cause problems in certain situations - both Rift Surge and Banish would eventually run out.
  3. If Rift Surge somehow propagates to a target on the material plane, it instantly becomes banished - but it doesn't proc a radial Banish like if you had manually triggered the Surge effect
  4. Limbo gets a new 2nd ability that draws power from all enemies in the Rift - this could grant a %damage increase, damage reduction, or shields, or energy regeneration for the whole team, etc. I'm leaning towards the damage boost and junking the Rift Surge augment. This ability would also forcibly eject enemies from the Rift and consume the Rift Surge effect.
    It would actually be cool if this ability both increased damage dealt and either provided major damage reduction, or at least a major shield buffer. Thus Limbo gameplay has him occasionally leaving the Rift to really tear things up rather than always hiding in the Rift. (maybe while that buff is active, even material plane enemies grant Limbo energy?)

This would mean that if Limbo's goal is to CC the enemy, he can keep focusing on that more easily. And since all Rifted enemies are frozen in time, he doesn't have to worry about being attacked while in the Rift. (That sounds a bit too god mode, so I'm wondering if Limbo being in the Rift like that would then need to DRAIN energy, rather than regenerate it)
But then if you want to use the damage boost, that will break your CC chaining as a trade-off. Sort of like you're switching from CCing to killing.

 

 

On 2019-01-04 at 10:24 AM, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

It has uses, but it should still be better for a 3rd ability. With the insane radius on Cataclysm and cone from Banish, Rift Surge is largely unnecessary without the augment except for when it comes to Nullifiers. Right now it's more of a contagious form of Banish that makes your teammates more likely to hate you, so it's better used far from them or while solo.

Well really it's main use is to be able to drag more enemies into the Rift without having to leave the safety of it (assuming Stasis is active, too, which makes me wonder why Stasis isn't a default effect of the Rift). This matters more in higher-level content, to be fair, but Limbo's kit really only works as you get to higher levels and enemies get higher health pools. That's just the way it goes for most CC frames, I think.
 

On 2019-01-04 at 8:11 AM, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

anyways rift surge has uses, just none that help teammates. if the augment affected teammates... now there is a buff.

Don't get me wrong, it does have uses. I do use it.
I just think it feels kinda... clunky or jarring in how it gets used to begin with.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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