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Why are baruuk's damage mitigation skills fighting against each other?


Thural
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So as it stands, Baruuk's 1 and 3 make each other worse when used to together.

If you build for max range to get the most coverage on Elude, you'll lose all your Desolate Hand charges when you are in the same room as an enemy, add on top that Elude doubles its range

If you build for minimum range to keep all your damage reduction, Elude only covers 60 degrees.

If you have Elude (an ability that makes guns useless since it blocks bullets) active, Desolate Hands is more likely to disarm enemies of their guns, meaning they are now able to damage you with melee.

Luckily, there's a simple fix, make Elude disable the disarming effect of Desolate Hands.  With this change, it would no longer be detrimental to Desolate Hands to have Elude active, and building range is no longer bad for Desolate Hands.

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Elude ignores all non-aoe damage (most non bombard or infested aoes are melee slams, confusion might come from that), not just bullets and Baruuk has 1 40%, 1 40~50% which comes with a additional 80% front only and 1 90% DR means he has a at least average 95% if not 96% constant damage reduction without the evasion from elude. Slap on Adaptation (or QT+Flow) and it becomes 98.3~99.6% DR.

There is a good point tho that while Elude is on, daggers should prioritize or even only jump to allies instead of trying to disarm enemies.

Edited by Andele3025
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I don't think you are applying this right. Elude is invulnerable to even melee attacks, only area of effect damage affects him. Aside, Desolated Hands is mainly a disarming skill, it's main purpose is to remove any ranged threat so you can be offensive and enemies are no longer an issue as Elude turns off, its damage reduction is just a bonus attached to it, not to mention you can simply recast Desolate Hands.

24 minutes ago, Thural said:

Luckily, there's a simple fix, make Elude disable the disarming effect of Desolate Hands.  With this change, it would no longer be detrimental to Desolate Hands to have Elude active, and building range is no longer bad for Desolate Hands.

Elude is not being detrimental, in fact it's boosting DH's main purpose. The idea you are suggesting is basically overlapping invulnerability and damage reduction, which if you ask me, is completely stupid.

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I think you're not getting the actual combo that Desolate hands plays into; you're charging your Passive to get the DR from that, and then use on your 4.

The defense abilities aren't fighting each other, you're simply expecting them to not do something that they are doing better because of the added Range. Yes, Desolate Hands immediately winking off to target all those enemies around you seems like a loss of DR right away, but the charge up on Restraint is so much better because of it.

While Serene Storm does need a buff to damage, it doesn't use energy and can be maintained just by you running Elude and DH consistently and then, every now and again, hitting Lull on a bigger group to get the large damage bonuses on the un-alert enemies.

All of the recent Warframes work best by actively casting all four of their abilities. Don't neglect Baruuk's.

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I don't think they work on completely against each other but they don't sinergize perfectly either. Elude does cover from melee attacks as others have said.

I suggested on a post about Baruuks for the daggers to fly off and disarm ONLY when elude is ON, and at twice the rate, so we don't overlap defenses and we have control over the DR. That way we can stay with elude on and CC and buff allies while not attacking or we can keep the daggers ourself for tankyness while elude is off. That would require desolate hands to have a duration which I don't think would be a problem.

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Or you could give player control over desilate hands' daggers. Hold to activate the ability tap to send them off to either a target, or a teammate. 

Alternatively, and preferably in my opinion, just let daggers that leave you to attach to allies also erode the restraint meter. If I'm trying to use Serene storm or build up DR from the meter, the desolate hands disarming is a great tool to erode the meter. But that means I have to run away from my team so that they don't take the daggers and make me lose the meter potential for Serene storm and DR. That'll build upon baruuk's support role.

Edited by WhisperBiscuit
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3 minutes ago, WhisperBiscuit said:

Or you could give player control over desilate hands' daggers. Hold to activate the ability tap to send them off to either a target, or a teammate. 

Alternatively, and preferably in my opinion, just let daggers that leave you to attach to allies also erode the restraint meter. If I'm trying to use Serene storm or build up DR from the meter, the desolate hands disarming is a great tool to erode the meter. But that means I have to run away from my team so that they don't take the daggers and make me lose the meter potential, while also losing DR. That'll build upon baruuk's support role.

Daggers transferred to allies erode your restraint when they are expended on an enemy. It would be double dipping to have them also erode restraint when initially transferred.

 

I'd prefer the ability to instantly pass off remaining daggers to allies when refreshing Desolate Hands. Waste not, want not.

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On 2018-12-29 at 7:07 PM, --Q--Sleeping said:

The idea you are suggesting is basically overlapping invulnerability and damage reduction, which if you ask me, is completely stupid.

the invulnerability doesnt apply to AoE attacks or any attacks while you are in the middle of an attack yourself, it is far from being "completely stupid"

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Lots of frames have skills they don't use based on the mods they equipped. My duration goes way down on my Resonating Quake Banshee, which basically means I never cast Sonar.

Spec'ing for high str, low range on Baruuk just means you want the most up-time for your daggers and won't be using your Elude. There is nothing wrong with that, and the virtually constant 90% DR basically makes up for not using it.

People seem really nit-picky about Baruuk, but I've solo'd arbitrations and Sanctuary Onslaught with him. I think he's in a good spot.

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2 hours ago, SupaTim said:

Lots of frames have skills they don't use based on the mods they equipped. My duration goes way down on my Resonating Quake Banshee, which basically means I never cast Sonar.

not really a good example considering banshee isnt in a very good spot either as shes either the : quake frame for low level farming OR the sonar frame, her kit needs help too

2 hours ago, SupaTim said:

There is nothing wrong with that, and the virtually constant 90% DR basically makes up for not using it.

the main issue is being in a room with any ally, having to tank my range just so i can keep my DR from giving itself to others without my say so is bads

2 hours ago, SupaTim said:

People seem really nit-picky about Baruuk, but I've solo'd arbitrations and Sanctuary Onslaught with him. I think he's in a good spot.

cause some of his stuff is weird(like desolate hands gifting itself to allies and ellude having no effect on AoE attacks) and his exalted weapon doesnt scale well at all, we just arrived at a point where normal melee weapons are simply much better than exalted weapons for being able to benefit from acolyte mods + rivens

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19 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

not really a good example considering banshee isnt in a very good spot either as shes either the : quake frame for low level farming OR the sonar frame, her kit needs help too

the main issue is being in a room with any ally, having to tank my range just so i can keep my DR from giving itself to others without my say so is bads

cause some of his stuff is weird(like desolate hands gifting itself to allies and ellude having no effect on AoE attacks) and his exalted weapon doesnt scale well at all, we just arrived at a point where normal melee weapons are simply much better than exalted weapons for being able to benefit from acolyte mods + rivens

Ok, pick a frame.

Rhino? Stomp/Roar or Iron Skin. How often do you use his charge?
Limbo? Does anyone use his three?
Oberon? Outside of some niche uses, I don't usually use his one either.
Frost? Again, how often do people use his one?
Trinity? How useful is her one?
Nova? Her one is certainly useful, but if your goal is to increase range for molecular prime, then you'll quickly run out of your DR as well.

I don't have a lot of experience with all the frames, so these are just some of the ones I use. Of course, counter-examples exist like Mirage that can use all of her kit outside of some specific specialization. Or Octavia, who is the queen of synergy. But I'd argue this isn't necessarily the norm. Some abilities are just used less than others. The same holds true for Baruuk. I hardly ever use his 1, but I use 2,3,4 very often.

Tanking your range to keep up your DR is how you do it whether you're playing with others or solo. I can see how it would be annoying to lose it randomly to allies though.

I guess I don't have enough experience with "endgame" content to speak to his 4 not scaling well. Most frames have trouble at high levels without some sort of armor mitigation. When does this start to matter? (I did 20 minutes solo on Mot with ease, but maybe that's a bad benchmark?)

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2 minutes ago, SupaTim said:

How often do you use his charge?

very because ironclad charge

3 minutes ago, SupaTim said:

Limbo? Does anyone use his three?

a lot, no one escapes my rift

3 minutes ago, SupaTim said:

Oberon? Outside of some niche uses, I don't usually use his one either.

any boss = smite spam

3 minutes ago, SupaTim said:

Frost? Again, how often do people use his one?

Trinity? How useful is her one?

this is more of a case of abilities being bad/mediocre

4 minutes ago, SupaTim said:

Nova? Her one is certainly useful, but if your goal is to increase range for molecular prime, then you'll quickly run out of your DR as well.

nova's 1 does need change tho, lots of people have been asking for it since the DR was discovered

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On 2018-12-29 at 10:05 PM, Thural said:

 

I guess something broke for me, because I was constantly dying with full coverage to trenchers

Remember that Elude ignore the damage only if you are not attacking. So if you actively shooting, especially with automatic weapon, enemies still can damage you. That's why you should try to keep the daggers even if they fly out constantly. If everything fails, use Lull.

Elude for moving around.
Desolate Hands when attacking.
Lull when sorrounded.

Edited by RobWasHere
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35 minutes ago, SupaTim said:

Ok...so it sounds like the justification for asking for a rework for Baruuk could be applied to a bunch of frames...

Which I guess is why there are so many threads about "Top X reworks in 2019" or similar...

yes, a lot of frames need tweaking, the "meta" has changed a lot over the past 2 years

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Oh, I am totally aware of how difficult it is to build baruuk.

 

Having in mind 200% range for 360 degree elude.

Duration at 100% or close to 100% (90~110) to not affect Lull's sleep duration nor affect drain of elude.

Efficiency at 175% to be able to spam 2nd and 3rd skill and for 1st skill to have drain all the way to 0.6 (or close to that)

Strength high enough to make 3rd and 4th skill useful (150% or more).

 

Having that in mind, I spent 3 hours brainstorming a build. Managed to come up with this build if you're interested.

Takes 4 formas and you'll probably have to repurchase atleast 3 or 4 mods (since I don't use them at max rank).

You'll also need umbral vitality at rank 8 and umbral intensify at rank 10.

Warframe1054.jpg

 

This was the only way I found to make every abillity useful for baruuk. You'll have your 1st skill always on, spamming your 2nd and 3rd skill every now and then to get restraint lower, to use your 4th skill. With this you'll be able to use your 4th whenever it is necessary and the 150% strenght plus a decent build for your exalted weapon will allow you to reach 20k crit hits easily.

I also built baruuk having in mind a sniper warframe. As in, with your 1st skill, you are immune to damage, so you can slowly aim with your sniper, BANG, kill an enemy with an headshot, then with just a 0.2s delay your elude will be back active (when you attack, you'll have a 0.2s delay before elude reactivates). All in all, I enjoy this build and if you want to give baruuk a try you can use this build aswell.

 

Edit: The arcane velocity is a thing of mine because my main is titania and her exalted weapon works with arcane velocity.... so that's the only arcane I have and I put them in all my warframes. It isn't necessary for this build however, you can take whatever arcane you want.

Edited by devildevil21
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