All Frames feel powerful, except for Vauban

[(NSW)Joewoof]

In a game that is designed to make you feel like a super badass, Vauban really sticks out like a sore thumb. He is so weak and lame that it is very jarring to play him. Very low base stats, abilities that go “ploof” like a wet booger that came loose, and really clunky 2nd ability controls - not to mention that they are overcosted and seem pointless.

I was having the time of my life with this game. Every Frame so far feels really amazing, and I was excited to keep getting and trying new ones... until Vauban.

Looking around, I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks so. He seems to have had a recent rework that didn’t improve him enough.

Vauban feels like he belongs in a different game. Not the awesomeness that is Warframe.

[Artekkor]

Interestingly enough i had a debate about Vauban in region chat today.
I have them fairly often...

One YouTuber summarized it well: Vauban's SOLE PURPOSE is crowd control.
Now, you could say - that's fine. That's his job. And i would agree... But only partially.

The problem is that there are warframes out there that can do crowd control AND do something else on the side.
Rhino can ragdol with 1 aand stun with 4, while he can keep himself alive with 2 and buff team's damage output with 3.
Oberon can use 1 to cause confusion among enemies with radiation and 4 for stun, while he also can provide healing and status resistance.
Harrow can just spam 1 in all directions, while also healing allies and providing them with energy.

You get the idea... Vauban's focus on crowd control does not do him any good. Because it makes him one-dimentional and boring and combined with his natural squishiness - very frustruating to play.

The saddest part is that i think him to be a wasted potential. Vauban is named after a french engineer. ENGINEER. Not a grenade and mine thrower.
I think Vauban should embrace his engineering origin and get according abilities, such as:

• ability to build turrets
• maybe drones / rollers
• maybe even his own custom MOA (that can be finetuned for task at hand, much like Khora's Venari)
• supplies dispensers

I think that would make Vauban a truly special warframe and not in annoying way.

Alternatively, we could embrace Vauban's grenade-throwing habbits and make them proper: frag grenades that deal slash, blast and corrosion procs all at the same time, flashbangs, incindiary grenades, smoke grenades (what would they do though?). Frankly i wouldnt mind this form of Vauban either. I've long awaited for a true SWAT warframe for a long time now.

[(XBOX)SavvyDeath]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Joewoof said:

In a game that is designed to make you feel like a super badass, Vauban really sticks out like a sore thumb. He is so weak and lame that it is very jarring to play him. Very low base stats, abilities that go “ploof” like a wet booger that came loose, and really clunky 2nd ability controls - not to mention that they are overcosted and seem pointless.

I was having the time of my life with this game. Every Frame so far feels really amazing, and I was excited to keep getting and trying new ones... until Vauban.

Looking around, I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks so. He seems to have had a recent rework that didn’t improve him enough.

Vauban feels like he belongs in a different game. Not the awesomeness that is Warframe.

That makes me think why Vauban prime costs 20 nitain and 7k Oxium, 30k cryotic. it just looks like DE wants to troll us with Vauban being useless and over expensive to build.

[kgabor]

Minelayer's ability costs need adjustments and possibly some synergies with Bastille and Vortex to make them deal Elemental damage and procs.

Tesla's could be used to amplify their damage.

The one thing i like about Vauban is Minelayer and the potential it has, but it's overshadowed by Bastille and even Vortex because of their energy costs.

Maybe Vauban could also use an invis mode where you can't attack, can't interact with anything, but you could use it to place mines and Teslas.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I like Vauban, but it's sad and true that he is very one dimensional. Most of his kit is area denial, but there's hardly a reason to pick one ability over the others since they are heavily redundant. 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, (XB1)SavvyDeath said:

That makes me think why Vauban prime costs 20 nitain and 7k Oxium, 30k cryotic. it just looks like DE wants to troll us with Vauban being useless and over expensive to build.

It was a resource sink. Also, Vauban was still useful when his prime released.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

8 hours ago, Artek94 said:

Interestingly enough i had a debate about Vauban in region chat today.
I have them fairly often...

One YouTuber summarized it well: Vauban's SOLE PURPOSE is crowd control.
Now, you could say - that's fine. That's his job. And i would agree... But only partially.

The problem is that there are warframes out there that can do crowd control AND do something else on the side.
Rhino can ragdol with 1 aand stun with 4, while he can keep himself alive with 2 and buff team's damage output with 3.
Oberon can use 1 to cause confusion among enemies with radiation and 4 for stun, while he also can provide healing and status resistance.
Harrow can just spam 1 in all directions, while also healing allies and providing them with energy.

You get the idea... Vauban's focus on crowd control does not do him any good. Because it makes him one-dimentional and boring and combined with his natural squishiness - very frustruating to play.

The saddest part is that i think him to be a wasted potential. Vauban is named after a french engineer. ENGINEER. Not a grenade and mine thrower.
I think Vauban should embrace his engineering origin and get according abilities, such as:

• ability to build turrets
• maybe drones / rollers
• maybe even his own custom MOA (that can be finetuned for task at hand, much like Khora's Venari)
• supplies dispensers

I think that would make Vauban a truly special warframe and not in annoying way.

Alternatively, we could embrace Vauban's grenade-throwing habbits and make them proper: frag grenades that deal slash, blast and corrosion procs all at the same time, flashbangs, incindiary grenades, smoke grenades (what would they do though?). Frankly i wouldnt mind this form of Vauban either. I've long awaited for a true SWAT warframe for a long time now.

A custom moa? That will not happen but somehow i love the idea...

[Sharkgoblin]

vauban is not so bad like people think, he has 2 bad abilities, but he also has 2 good abilities.

[SaiTatter]

Yes definitely, even after the rework he is squishy as hell. Considering his skillset which is hard to learn, compared to other frames that have a predefined skill thats doing one thing, the skills in general should be more rewarding and there should he something that takes makes him a little more tanky.

[C4n0n1ze]

Yeah the redundant CC really does not help him much in the end. Can lock down whole areas with his Bastille why worry about using a tripwire? Hell Vortex is still buggy Ive lost count of the times I thrown one out and turned away only to have the bombards I tried to suppress continue to fire rockets at me while being rag-dolled inside. Its issues like this that really show how bad his defensive and utility are outside of CC. 

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

Isn't there one of the most damaging combos with vortex and bouncing pads?

[C4n0n1ze]

I believe that was some odd glitch we first saw in simulacrum thats been fixed, though im aware of what your talking about. Something to do with Vortex and Bounce combo scaling to high. I also believe that it was a power strength Vauban build correct? If it still exists I may try it out though I dont know how effective it would be at higher levels if i have to give up my adaptation mod. 😆

[Aldain]

9 hours ago, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

Isn't there one of the most damaging combos with vortex and bouncing pads?

With the energy that it would take to do that you'd be better off taking any one of the 12 or so frames that can blow entire tile sets up with less effort and less energy.

Vauban isn't built for the current state of the game, he has little to no single defining traits outside of his area denial and crowd control, which other frames can either do just as well or bypass the need for crowd control with copious room nukes. Even Ember has uses despite not being a top tier frame (burning the infested anyone?) Vauban doesn't have even a single niche that isn't redundant or outperformed by other frames.

[C4n0n1ze]

4 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Vauban doesn't have even a single niche that isn't redundant or outperformed by other frames.

^This. Even sticking Tesla grenades on a team member does less damage then Volts Shocking Speed augment if I recall correctly because its a guaranteed proc and unlike Tesla has no internal cooldown between shocks, you just need to go weave back and forth within a 3 meter range. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by zen625

[(NSW)Joewoof]

I really like how you can stick Tesla on your teammates though. Maybe if those mines actively seek out and stick to allies? That would be cool.

[Xzorn]

What's with all the Vauban posts. Did people forget DE said they were re-visiting him?

Either way Vauban isn't weak. He just has to work x3 harder than other CC frames. Some players like that extra work instead of pressing one button. The only real downside Vauban has is that he's not mobile. He has to prep a room to be effective. Unlike Nyx or Loki he can't just run into a room and be ready for business.

Don't forget that Nullifiers are in about 1/2 of this game and these other CC frames you compare Vauban to cannot protect the team from that one-shot eagle eye Lanka at all. He does this using his Concuss Mines. Again though, why he's not a very mobile frame. Nyx, Loki and Oberon are the only other frames who can do this. Nyx happens to be a pure CC frame. It's her job and they recently tried to round her out... ughh.. Don't even get me started on that but yea I certainly wouldn't argue against buffs for him but he's not bad.

[C4n0n1ze]

As I have mentioned in earlier posts if you can find an exact quote saying WHEN or IF there revamping him please do share. All we have is "this isnt a revamp and it doesn't preclude him from one in the future" more or less the EXACT words mentioned by Rebecca, during a twitch livestream that was intended to show off his deluxe skin. 

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Either way Vauban isn't weak.

 

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

he's not bad.

No he really is. A comparison of base stats shows that hes down on all fronts from base health, armor, and shields to even his energy and sprint speed. In comparison other frames that also dont excel in one or the other of the mentioned stats USUALLY has a higher counter (health vs shields) to balance them out. This is not true for Vauban (last I checked) and means even when modded he doesnt reach the same levels as other  frames. Also a frame that almost SOLELY relies on a single ability (in my humble opinion) is bad. This wasn't such an issue earlier on, when Bouncepad had a use outside of Infiltration (and trolling) and enemy damage wasn't off the charts and Bastille really showed its worth. Now power creep on both frames and weapons has reached such a point the game meta has left Vauban in the dust and without some change to his kit/abilitys/stats hes going to remain one of the least played frames in the game (trying to find a screenshot of the livestream where DE showed actual usage data). His components being locked behind alerts and prime needing 20 Nitain doesn't help that much either but we will leave that aside for now. 😕

Edit:Forgot to add for regular starchart base Vauban is easily viable (its the frame I used to complete it). So it's the higher tuned "endgame" that were talking about that really shows his shortcomings and people, believe it or not, want to bring Vauban there too. 😆

Edited January 1, 2019 by zen625

[burem0n0]

I think you meant to say "Wukong" not Vauban.

Nice typo.

Or better yet, Ember (trash tier)

[C4n0n1ze]

As someone who recently got Ember, can you someone give me a breakdown on why shes (trash tier)? Genuinely curious if shes as bad as Vauban (and Wukong).

Edited January 2, 2019 by zen625

[Aldain]

29 minutes ago, zen625 said:

As someone who recently got Ember, can you someone give me a breakdown on why shes (trash tier)? Genuinely curious if shes as bad as Vauban (and Wukong).

I'm no Ember expert, hell I don't even have her built, but the three general reasons I commonly hear from people are as follows:

1. Fire is a mediocre damage type which only has extra damage inflicted to unarmored or unshielded flesh. This makes Ember scale poorly as armor and shielding values increase wildly compared to flesh values on most enemies causing her to fall off past a certain point.

2. Her energy issues are present as World on Fire drains more and more energy while active, and her third ability drains 75 energy with no mods reducing it, this requires her to build to compensate for her drain problems and since fire damage is weak against all but flesh, this means that she requires more energy to burn anything other than infested and a few other enemies.

3. She's fairly squishy and can't take much damage, and unlike other frames that can wipe rooms out, issues 1 and 2 make her more perpetually under fire (no pun intended) and can cause her to die faster than other room nuke frames.

Overall Ember isn't completely awful, its more the issue of how the enemies are built compared to what damage she does. Ember falls off as enemies get stronger and more armored but she is still reliable against certain enemies. Compare that to Vauban who's abilities either deal no damage or might as well do no damage while also not serving a point in groups where people CAN blow up tile sets with no need of crowd control, and you can see the difference between the two.

TL;DR: Ember is niche because of her damage type and poor late game scaling, that is why people feel she's not very good.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Aldain

[C4n0n1ze]

Ahhhh victim to the massive armor/health scaling that is warframe. If you could potentially alter her World on Fire via a mod to say....another element type (gas,radiation,blast all fire elemental combos) would it help a bit? Im sure scaling would still be a issue but a random radiation proc going off could potentially reduce incoming damage if it lasts long enough. 

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, zen625 said:

Ahhhh victim to the massive armor/health scaling that is warframe. If you could potentially alter her World on Fire via a mod to say....another element type (gas,radiation,blast all fire elemental combos) would it help a bit? Im sure scaling would still be a issue but a random radiation proc going off could potentially reduce incoming damage if it lasts long enough. 

I'd say she would need some ability to "melt" armor over time, allowing her to deal more damage to armored enemies the longer she torches them, maybe also reduce heavily armored enemies movement speed from their armor warping and melting from the heat would be a good thematic option I think.

[C4n0n1ze]

If we could achieve corrosive with a fire element combo id agree but sadly we cant (and I like that better then what I mentioned with my small knowledge on Ember). But a mod that changes her element wouldn't be that hard to code do you not think so?

Random edit:Why not go the Chroma route? Energy color combines with red to change world on fires element type. No need to waste a mod slot. 

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by zen625

[Aldain]

Just now, zen625 said:

If we could achieve corrosive with a fire element combo id agree but sadly we cant (and I like that better then what I mentioned with my small knowledge on Ember). But a mod that changes her element wouldn't be that hard to code do you not think so? 

 

I don't think Ember needs to stop dealing fire damage all together, fire causes panic which is a good option for damage reduction to Ember. Chroma has the multi element shifting ability as is after all. It would be best to give Ember countermeasures to armor while retaining her fire theme to retain her individuality and unique nature. Some people love the "pyromaniac" feel and I think the best way to improve a frame is to preserve the core theme of the frame while adjusting details and abilities so that they don't wind up in the odd niche that Ember currently is. Ember just needs small tweaks to be more effective overall I feel.

The only exception to my "preserve the core theme" ideal is when there is no way to fix the base idea of the kit with just number adjustments and minor changes and this is where Vauban falls in the scale, his abilities are at odds not only with the current state of Warframe, but also with each other. He has so much crowd control that it all becomes redundant, while also lacking the damage to exploit his own crowd control (use of weapons not withstanding) and contributes nothing when compared to many of the frames with minor crowd control AND damage.

[C4n0n1ze]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

The only exception to my "preserve the core theme" ideal is when there is no way to fix the base idea of the kit with just number adjustments and minor changes and this is where Vauban falls in the scale, his abilities are at odds not only with the current state of Warframe, but also with each other. He has so much crowd control that it all becomes redundant, while also lacking the damage to exploit his own crowd control (use of weapons not withstanding) and contributes nothing when compared to many of the frames with minor crowd control AND damage.

Well said.