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Adding new things is not the solution.


Cephalycion
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The second part to my series of rants about Warframe.

As much as Warframe is a really great game and all, there are a lot, and I mean A LOT of obviously visible parts of the game that are far from polished enough. I have learned from my time in the forums that DE has the habit of avoiding reworks and instead prioritises adding new features. Which from a business standpoint, kind of makes sense since it keeps the players engaged.

However, simply adding new features is not the solution. DE needs to take a step back and take a good look at their game again. Because there's a lot of it that's broken. Archwing, conclave, focus, cetus wisps, more recently baruuk and the profit taker. As well as at least a dozen other issues.

Recently DE announced that they will be taking a look at chat moderation again. Thanks, we needed that.

I get that DE is a small company and they can't do two things at once. Go too long without new content and you will see "Warframe is dying part 7" made by the long time vets. But go too long without fixing your game and you will not only lose the vets but the newcomers as well.

Seeing abandoned projects that don't receive much needed updates or reworks doesn't make a good impression of the game. The first time I was made aware that the game is not polished enough was when I started playing Conclave. Matches were so hard to find and whenever I found one I would get absolutely annihilated by veteran snipetron users. It was so frustrating, but I pressed on with it. Eventually I got good at it and saw the potential of the gamemode, but I could also see why people wouldn't want to play it. 

In my opinion, you should either make it great or not at all. If something exists in your game, you should push forward with it until it's super duper good, or get rid of it. In between is where you get a lot of the negative feedback.

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I don't think problem is expansion but rather optimization and transparent approach toward longterm game issues. Yes, the rule "More you add, the harder managing it becomes" applies here but problem is mainly in that DE rushes out the updates instead of taking another week or two to properly go through them in order to pick out issues that were overlooked (some large updates were rushed and ended causing many bugs and glitches, people will surely remember which ones).

The other issue which plagues game development in general is the fact that devs follow their vision way to adamantly in order for game to be exactly as they desire, but that alone can be a source of a problem. Game developer needs to keep in mind that he/she may not always be right, and unfortunately, many potentialy great games (not just multiplayer ones) became a disaster due to devs thinking they are the only people that are right. Game community makes up trends, no one says developers needs to follow them properly but they should be aware of this trend movement and take it into account at leat to some degree cause it may help them come up with something that will make trends themselves shift into more suitable direction. The way DE forced some stuff on us is not good at all, great example being the removal of Trials which could have stayed in game as functional game mode while rework was being done and which would just overwrote old version once ready.

I really like Warframe, and I see why it came so far from a POV of a game developer, but I am just free time kind of dev and because of that, I can see issues which DE probably fails to see. The scale of project is at fault cause it dictates the pressure which is put on the company, and Warframe is a bit big project for such a small company, no doubts about it. Think of it this way however, DE may be small company but they manage pretty well compared to how ambitious the Warframe is as a project. They deserve support, yeah, but they could also improve many things in game. They always have oppoturnity to expand and grow bigger, trouble is it's not simple thing to do.

Edited by CoreXCZ
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Problem with Archwing is, that new weapons are locked behind syndicates, and you pretty much can't get a set without trading since they are in opposing syndicates. The ones from the dojo cost 3.5k oxium for Grattler, or 4 Detonite Injectors + Forma for Knux. This is out of reach for a new player and 95% of players will get to Neptune with just Odonata/Imperator/Velocitus.

Next issue, it's almost impossible to gather Archwing mods since drop rate is bad, they are hard to spot in space, vaccum range is small. 

Another issue is that most Archwing missions rewards are bad or reward Archwing mods at an absolutely terrible drop chance.

Final issue is that there are usually 1 mission per planet. So, while a player might get to, say, Jupiter, he will go through 10-20 different weapons, maybe a new frame, all maxed out - and with lvl 10-15 Archwing gear.

All this means that new player will be under-leveled, under-geared and constantly die/fail missions which creates frustration. 

Archwing weapon acquirement should be streamlined/easier, enemies should be scaled down in level or give more affinity per kill, mod drop rate (especially of the rare type) should be increased and rewards should be reworked for Archwing missions to be actually worth it, instead of what we have now, which is doing Archwing mission for the sake of getting Archwing mods.

My hope is that Archwing content gets an overhaul once Razorjack hits, and that PoE gets Fortuna treatment and grind is reduced (3 mining items, all worse then Fortuna cutter which is easier to get for example) once everyone is back from holiday. Considering the rest of the issues, I hope they do find the time to rework some of the worse systems.

 

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I think part of why DE hasn’t gone back to fix things like the Conclave, Focus or Archwing etc. is because any change to a system is met with a lot of backlash.

While I do agree these are projects that need to be returned to and polished up doing so pulls away from “the next big thing”. A lot of players complain about a “content drought”. Even with the orb pt2 not yet on console there are PC players saying they are bored again and how their isn’t enough for them to do.

Archwing may get changes with Railjack but I would argue that due to archwing being a sort of building block for that game play. Even then I don’t think that the changes are going to be as extreme as a lot of people are hoping for them to be.

I would say that they may have been looking at doing some changes to the PVP system when they begin talking about stalker mode but with the amount of hate that game mode has been getting (before its even out) I don’t know what is going to come of it if anything at all.

I’m not sure what DE’s long term game plan is but they are a small company and Warframe is a big project. It’s easier to pacify some players by releasing a new frame with a small quest then it is to go back and fix a system that some players have gotten used to or don’t touch outside of when they have to.

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49 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

While I do agree these are projects that need to be returned to and polished up doing so pulls away from “the next big thing”. A lot of players complain about a “content drought”. Even with the orb pt2 not yet on console there are PC players saying they are bored again and how their isn’t enough for them to do.

Fortuna was the next bug err big thing, which we see minor improvements: bonus gains in bounties, very good npc characters, endless scaling enemies toroid farming, and (terribly painfully linear and limitedj hunting, mixed with huge moslty useless diversions (k-drive knock off of classic game), floofs because there isn’t much else to do, matched with dreadful rote and cheesy bounties, oddball shock plot gimmicks, like heads stuffed in chest, the manner of corpus oppression (which sports absolutely wonky nonsense). And just nothing at all engaing i this huge tile they labished attention on. Size for what? To what engaging end?

OV has spread the game out thinner, but flatter (gameplay wise) rather than adding texture and depth.

On top of this, like what happened to raids, this new content breaks and distablisizes existing content except now its mainline starchart.

How much of OV are newish players going to be able to work thru or not become frustrated and bored in a short while?

Edited by (PS4)teacup775
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1 minute ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

Fortuna was the next bug err big thing, which we see minor improvements: bonus gains in bounties, very good npc characters, endless scaling enemies toroid farming, and (terribly painfully linear and limitedj hunting, mixed with huge moslty useless diversions (k-drive knock off of classic game), floofs because there isn’t much else to do, matched with dreadful rote and cheesy bounties, oddball shock plot gimmicks, like heads stuffed in chest, the manner of corpus oppression (which sports absolutely wonky nonsense). OV has spread the game out thinner, but flatter (gameplay wise) rather than adding texture and depth.

On top of this, like what happened to raids, this new content breaks and distablisizes existing content except now its mainline starchart.

How much of OV are newish players going to be able to work thru or not become frustrated and bored in a short while?

My apologies in my phrasing but I think the point I was trying to make was missed.

What I was trying to say is I firmly believe that content isn’t being fleshed out 100% due to the desire for “more more more”. What we are getting are samples that are meant to serve as an entirety. It’s likely that the previous mentions won’t be looked into again until they are needed as a building block for something else. The orbs content is lacking and rather than going back to add in more depth I fully expect that the warframe team is throwing themselves into the next new project. (rail jack or the war within)

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be revisited and fixed, I’m saying that it is unlikely that they will be.

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16 minutes ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be revisited and fixed, I’m saying that it is unlikely that they will be.

I’m not disagreeing. My own comment is the big thing (fortuna), turned out to be more or less a minnow or a mid sized trout, calling into question how they are approaching their next big thing. I am very hesitant to think rail jack will end up as not much more than a cheap knock off pirates in space of some other game.

Will they even fit it into progression to the New War?

Did they try with Fortuna?

nope. So lost opportunity to build on that.. nothing that might spark people to invest in one thing or another because its coming. How about some binding content to fill in lore gaps and spur players to fill in the star chart, focus etc?

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1 hour ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

I’m not disagreeing. My own comment is the big thing (fortuna), turned out to be more or less a minnow or a mid sized trout, calling into question how they are approaching their next big thing. I am very hesitant to think rail jack will end up as not much more than a cheap knock off pirates in space of some other game.

Will they even fit it into progression to the New War?

Did they try with Fortuna?

nope. So lost opportunity to build on that.. nothing that might spark people to invest in one thing or another because its coming. How about some binding content to fill in lore gaps and spur players to fill in the star chart, focus etc?

I hesitate to agree or disagree on railjack. The trailer for it made it seam fast and exciting but then it also did so for Fortuna overall which has a more slow feel with GTA wanted system turned up to "always wanted" because someone decided to K-drive threw a corpus base. 

I feel they tried with Fortuna but fell flat in a lot of areas. It looks very well but plays pretty lack luster. The credit sink is more of a bore then anything else and the mission's only giving standing once is a bit bleh. I like not having to return to Fortuna every time I finish but, with how the squads work in public, it gets to be just one grind after another. While I think the lore for OV could have worked it was packed in so heavily that it left you confused at the end of it. The story felt forced and rush, I was also expecting a mini quest for Garuda rather then having her being lumped into fortuna's everything. The start felt like an intro to the orb and to Fortuna then it just got nuts from there.  I admit I am hesitant to assist a new friend play warframe because I know she will want to go to the orb and to the plains and I agree that they aren't something new players are ready for.

With new War I expect you will have to have completed the sacrifice so minimum MR 5 (I belive) with all planets and void unlocked.As much as I enjoyed the sacrifice I don't expect the "New war" to be anything more then the sacrifice was. Several well done cut scenes and maybe a unique mission or two and then nothing for another 6 months to a year. Sure it will be a good mission and it may leave us with more questions but I don't want to expect more then that only to be disappointed.

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11 hours ago, Cephalycion said:

As much as Warframe is a really great game and all, there are a lot, and I mean A LOT of obviously visible parts of the game that are far from polished enough. I have learned from my time in the forums that DE has the habit of avoiding reworks and instead prioritises adding new features. Which from a business standpoint, kind of makes sense since it keeps the players engaged.

Blizzard doesn't do that anymore, either. Polish is no longer there, especially at the demand of people who literally fly through game content.

Part of the reason has been off-shoring dev teams (either programming in Eastern Europe; or animations in China). Blizzard has Chinese animators doing that for years, and has to go through all the barriers of off-shoring to get "the new" stuff ingame. So management in LA; Austin or Toronto will be blind of the finished product, as they'll get the "parts" in but the Quality Assurance won't have time to review the changes in time of release. Older games had like 90 days to find and fix the in-your-face problems.

Today players are playing beta games as release games, and yes, it shows (that photo is rushed content without a QA pass).........

Seams.png

 

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5 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

6 Months ago : OmG DE to much content drought, do something!!!

 

Now : OmG DE More warframes? More weapons? STOP AND FIX CONTENT

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760627442

It's even a culture...

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753645641

Oh, and if you don't agree...

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/toxic-trolls-in-forums/59189

Wash. Rinse. Repeat the same forum seeding concept.

 

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There are many old bugs, some are quite bad. There are some users that have made a list of bugs.

My bigger annoyance is updates have created bugs and some problems on existing, good old missions. Then they fix it later.

24.1.1? They fixed cipher terminals invisible to clients in regular Corpus missions on Venus... wasn't a problem in regular missions months before this update.

24.1.3: fixed invisible hazard bubbles in Hive missions... wasn't a problem a few weeks before this update.

24.2: Operators can now use Ciphers when hacking panels... when operators was already able to use ciphers months ago, until 24.0.? broke it.

 

My other problem is somewhat poor Archwing controls. Experimental flight in option, when enabled, does help for me, but this option do nothing on Free roam missions. Worst, they tried to change controls for Free roam on PC update 24.0.4, then reverted on 24.0.7 with no options. Make it an option like "Experimental Flight", don't force this control change to everyone at the same time.

 

 

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I’m firmly a quality over quantity guy with most things so I totally agree with polishing the game, I would love to do Conclave but I can either never find matches or when I do I stand no chance. Of course I’m nowhere close to finishing any aspect of the game so I’ve never really understood the content drought thing, if anything the amount of content is overwhelming at the moment. Anyway now seems to be the perfect time (for the time I’ve played Warframe) for a good polishing. New frames and weapons seem to be combining elements of older frames and weapons and not really doing anything new (at least in my eyes) and as much as I liked Planes of Eidolons story and characters, along with Fortuna (Love Solaris United) it seems like the new content is starting to become just rehashed old stuff. So in my opinion right now is the perfect time for DE to take a break with new content and polish the old content, and just to keep the veterans happy maybe sprinkle some new enemy types in, like a new enemy (new enemy, not variant) for one faction at each new prime access. Now I’m not sure how far DE is into Railjack and New War so if they’re already really into that, best to finish those first. Anyway, it seems best now to sprinkle small updates in between reworks, fixes, etc, so that way the quality and quantity balance out.

Edited by (XB1)NokarStormBlade
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On 2018-12-31 at 6:48 PM, Cephalycion said:

I get that DE is a small company

On 2018-12-31 at 8:25 PM, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

I’m not sure what DE’s long term game plan is but they are a small company and Warframe is a big project.

DE is no longer this indie developer, they are quite big today. In size DE is compareable to Obsidian Entertainment - yes, those guys who made Pillars of Eternity (PoE haha), Tyranny  and soon The Outer Worlds.

 

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Its kind of sad that with every new idea i know something else will become forgotten. Fortuna came in and you can pretty much conclude that PoE is now in a "finalized" state, regardless of bugs, texture problems, inbalances and whatever it wont be changed anytime soon.

The conclave is a dead gamemode, archwing is pretty much abadoned, channelling gets the raid treatment, almost every year some bored guy comes here and makes a buglist what contains atleast 200 various bugs and other madness what should have been fixed already.

 

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On 2018-12-31 at 11:49 PM, -Sentient- said:

Now : OmG DE More warframes? More weapons? STOP AND FIX CONTENT 

 

More warframes, mods and weapons that have nothing much new to chew on. Lots of toys but no inventive content to use them on, or just pointless (status mods for pets.. who lack mod space for them; need prime dentures and claws) Weird and awkward plot gimmicks (Futurama heads stuffed in Bender chests as shock value), but good characters none the less.

One boss that takes a huge grind to unlock with minimally changed up enemies to wade through in missions that are flavorless; several smallish improvements are made to bounties (extra earnable standing), discover and cap wildlife (but nothing about discovering and tracking down corpus bad boys in the field (why can we discover or goad into spawning some A****** miniboss supervisor or take put some nasty elite team?) and a lot of cheese spam aoe and literally spawn enemies on player heads).

Bounties to get to the orb are minimally the extra flavor we should see added to missions across the star chart and we get a pointless new vehicle to idle away time because there is nothing else to do.

Main rationale for orb fight is fit into no interesting narrative for the area at all. And where does it fit into the new war? Where is glast or any of the other factions in this?  For newer players where is content to inspire them to complete the star chart, to build out their tenno?

And bugs everywhere.

DE succeeded in their goal of making more engaging npcs, cheese plot aspects aside. Their weapon, mod and warframe mill is in overdrive. But these are fragments. A semi tasty whole is missing. Frankly the game comes across as a little self indulgent and mostly aimless.

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the only "new" things i really want honestly are a REAL endgame with actual high lvl, better enemies thats harder to cheese, and im just fine wit another open world coming but i wouldnt make that on top priority opinion wise. other wise im already tired of newer frames, newer weapons, newer cosmetics, newer bleh modes, and the recently newer mods which are really bleh. i would also prefer them updating such as theyre doing melee 3.0 but i hope it actually has a better movement/combo system where it feel like other hack and slash games like dynasty warriors, ninja gaiden, or even nier automata being a horde game and all.

Edited by SutomuDrgn
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Psychologically/Statistically, Warframe only needs to be fun for a short period and fills the rest with skinner box techniques like incremental progression and variable ratio reinforcements. 

Most people who really criticized core gameplay and balance of Warframe are people who spent around 400 700 1000+ hrs and new players don't usually meta analyze the game before playing, that's why Warframe is stuck in between epidemic of infallibility and sunk cost fallacy, the current situation of Warframe in a nutshell(and why WF feedbacks are ignored). 

 

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The issue with Archwings is there's crap for content. The entire game has what? 8 Archwing missions total, spread among two whole tilesets? And on top of this, we have a choice between all of four Archwings and maybe 8 of each Archgun and Archmelee, most of which are broadly interchangeable beyond visuals. Ever since I unlocked my Atmospheric Archgun, I've been trying to Forma my Imperator Vandal, and do you know what my choices are? 1. Salacia on Neptune, 2. Oh, wait - that's it innit'? My alternatives are Galilea on Jupiter which is low too low level to be effective in levelling stuff up, Pandora on Saturn which is a TERRIBLE pursuit mission with not a lot of enemy ships and Caelus on Uranus which is a terrible Interception mission with also not a lot of enemy ships before it becomes annoying to solo. I could try and level up my Archgun in-atmosphere during normal missions, but that's not Archwing content, now is it?

I know the oft-cited reasons to hate Archwing is the controls and the guns and all, but I'd argue the fact that I can name maybe two-dozen individual items among the entirety of tilesets, mussions, weapons and Archwings is I'd argue a far greater flaw. There's barely any content to actually USE our Archwings in, so our Archwings are vastly underlevelled, so we don't want to use them period and the cycle perpetuates itself. If DE want Archwings to be worth using, we need at least a few more tilesets and at least - let's be generous - 20 Archwing missions across all planets. Then it might actually be worth investing in.

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Yeah.. The deeper you get into this game, the more you see that developers just add crap for the sake of adding new content a lot of the time. 

Take Railjack for instance.. It looks "good", but why on earth are you adding god damned ship to ship combat when the Archwing is still woefully underdeveloped?

 

And that "car" in PoE, wow, what a cringe-worthy waste of time. 

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7 hours ago, ShortCat said:

DE is no longer this indie developer, they are quite big today. In size DE is compareable to Obsidian Entertainment - yes, those guys who made Pillars of Eternity (PoE haha), Tyranny  and soon The Outer Worlds.

 

While the two companies are comparable in size (approx. 170 employees for both) its important to note that Obsidian doesn't make MMO's or free to play games. (outside of the Skyforge game they made in collaboration with Allods Team)

If we compare DE to other FtP game developers such as Hi-Rez Studios (creators of smite and paladins)they have approximately half of what other teams have (Hi-Rez reports ~350). Wargaming reports to have over 4,000 employees (as of 2017) across their 3 FtP games. (I would add Allods Team in here however I am unable to find any listing of their staff numbers)

We could also look to MMO's like Blizzard with (as of 2015) over 2,600 employees. Square Enix with their over 4,300 as of 2018, EA takes the lead with over 9,300. Maybe and argument could be made for ZeniMax who reported in 2012 that they had 250 (still putting DE short 70 employees), but the Elder Scrolls Online still receives a vast amount of resources from Bethesda which staff can in theory be pulled from to assist in new game content. Further the companies above do no offer their MMO's as FtP. Maybe they offer them as a "Trial to X level" or "free to X level" but ultimately they are paid subscriptions. The reason for this is how costly it is to run servers and maintain updates but that's a topic for another thread.

The argument of the parent companies for the two could also be made. DE's parent company, Leyou, just doesn't have the pulling power that Obsidians parent company ,Microsoft Studios (a subsidiary of Microsoft), has.

Now DE's 170 employees tower over the few employees that Campo Santo (firewatch) or Dynamic Pixels (Hello Neighbor) have. These are indie games without a doubt. I wouldn't call DE an indie Developer, but I wouldn't call them a big AAA company. They don't have the resources that larger companies have but they have far more then indie developers.

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5 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

and why WF feedbacks are ignored).

Yet Sturgeon’s law applies to everything including feedback.

To not read feedback leads to arrogance and complacency in devs, which ever so mildly was on display in the last dev steam of the year.  

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1 hour ago, (PS4)wintersfrozen said:

-snip-

MMO or not, the amount of seizable content can be compared. If both studious have similar size, employees have to work on something right? Warframe also lacks the WoW's scope, so the difference will of course be there.
I have no idea how the workflow is there, but if you tell me it takes one year for 170 people to release 3.5 new frames, 15 weapons, 5 minutes of scripted video and one empty snowy map - I would say that's not much. Throw in some bugfixes in combination with new bugs, to be fair.

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12 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Rest in Peace, Firefall.

PERFECT example of a bad dev given money, when his former employee was making Overwatch (a direct competitor), too.

Then after he hand delivered those "votes" for a WoW Classic server, he got some money to make a game himself.

Hmmmm.....

Nasty games out there being played to "win".

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13 hours ago, 1ivay1 said:

Yeah.. The deeper you get into this game, the more you see that developers just add crap for the sake of adding new content a lot of the time. 

Take Railjack for instance.. It looks "good", but why on earth are you adding god damned ship to ship combat when the Archwing is still woefully underdeveloped?

 

And that "car" in PoE, wow, what a cringe-worthy waste of time. 

Gotta agree with this, lots of pointless BS is getting developed and added for no reason expect "why not".

 

My favorite was the peciluar mods, someone wasted development time for these things to create visual gimmicks with the possibility to further improve fashionframe and what did we got?

A mod you have to put into your weapons literally creating the " you want to be pretty or powerful?" argument. I cannot wrap my head around it, its just nonsense.

 

Over the year a lot of ideas what could be good for the game were literally abadoned and forgotten because someone in the dev team suddenly screamed up "Guys what about openworld/space football/arcade machines/etc?"

I remember throught the years i seen a lot of requests to add chess, poker, darts or whatever games to the relays so they can be more social places but instead we got the bugged mess arcade machine.

 

Im not against adding new stuff but i want it to work and fit into the current enviroment without abadoning the old enviroment.

 

8 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

PERFECT example of a bad dev given money, when his former employee was making Overwatch (a direct competitor), too.

Then after he hand delivered those "votes" for a WoW Classic server, he got some money to make a game himself.

Hmmmm.....

Nasty games out there being played to "win".

I really liked firefall but due to hardware issues i had to stop playing it.

The game and the base idea was fine, the execution looked good but as time moved on the developers showed that they know better what the game needs what essentially ended up killing it.

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