Haven't you guys made enough money at this point to have dedicated servers?

[Genesix6]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

Everyone that doesn’t agree with you doesn’t understand the topic?

Lol. You don’t get to be right by telling other people they’re wrong.

Before WF I played both Destiny1/2 and Overwatch.

In my destiny clan, we had people from all over the world, our raid team consisted of an American couple that lived in Texas, a guy from Europe and a few people in between.

Sure, you’re just going to have to take my word for it, but we ran Destiny raids for a month, ping was never an issue. 

We weren’t unable to play an online game together because of distance.

Overwatch, same stuff. I could play with people from different countries in my party without suffering crippling ping.

 

You’re talking all this crap about how everyone else doesn’t understand the topic, and yet there are a plethora of games doing what’s apparently impossible for Warframe to do.

 

The people that blindly defend this game are probably one of the worst things about it.

Yeah I dislike the p2p server, can't even play with my brother at all, not even frame fighter.

[FlusteredFerret]

3 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I'm sorry, but I dont think it's this huge issue that some people make it out to be when they throw words around like "NEEDS" and "unplayable".

I also think some people have rose colored glasses in a big way on this. I have played enough games to know there is a difference between "dedicated servers" and GOOD dedicated servers.

I can also picture all the "content drought" threads when the cost of dedicated servers means less money is available for the development of new content

.

Well for one thing, the game CAN be unplayable at times, if you want to play in SQUADS. Certainly in my experience anyway. Being kicked from the game mid-mission and failing, or losing rewards, because of team hosting issues, is something I can definitely relate to.

Second, it seems a lot of people are conflating more common server issues, such as ping, packet loss etc. with Warframe's rather unique issue of Host Migration.

You're far from the only person to have played multiple online games. I'm also quite familiar with the issues from my own experiences.

 

As for your last comment, thats something that DE would have to consider before making the switch (if they ever decide to). I'm fully aware running dedicated servers is not a cheap proposition. It might even entail a period where the game is completely offline, while they close one system down and bring the new one online.

I appreciate could be a rather costly way of solving one specific problem, while not necessarily alleviating the other common issues...again thats something DE would have to evaluate, as to its viability. Its something Steve mentioned in one of the dev streams, but it sounded like something a good way down the pipeline.

If there is another, more cost-effective way of solving this particular issue, then I'm all for it. I would simply like DE to try and figure a way around this problem, whatever the solution ends up being.

 

[nslay]

Assuming it's even practical to host a significant number of games on any one server with smooth performance, the only feasible way to do this is to host regional server farms to reduce latency in those regions: North America, South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, and Oceania.

It won't solve the problem with clan members being in different countries, but neither would one set of servers hosted in one location.

 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

Everyone that doesn’t agree with you doesn’t understand the topic?

Lol. You don’t get to be right by telling other people they’re wrong.

Before WF I played both Destiny1/2 and Overwatch.

In my destiny clan, we had people from all over the world, our raid team consisted of an American couple that lived in Texas, a guy from Europe and a few people in between.

Sure, you’re just going to have to take my word for it, but we ran Destiny raids for a month, ping was never an issue. 

We weren’t unable to play an online game together because of distance.

Overwatch, same stuff. I could play with people from different countries in my party without suffering crippling ping.

 

You’re talking all this crap about how everyone else doesn’t understand the topic, and yet there are a plethora of games doing what’s apparently impossible for Warframe to do.

 

The people that blindly defend this game are probably one of the worst things about it.

Not at all, buddy. People who disagree are fine, it's the people who try to compare apples to oranges and think that it is valid that demonstrate that they haven't got the first clue. 

 

Sort of like how you answered something that wasn't asked. I asked you if it was the same people. From what you said, it looks like the answer is just a long winded way of saying "no". Which is fine, if you like oranges. 

Hey, look, I get it, you can keep trying to throw shade, if that's how you figure you'll get what you want. But seriously, if you can't figure out what people have been saying, then you might want to take a minute to figure it out before responding. 

[Sziklamester]

Dedicated servers would work if they rent 10-20 all over the world and these 10-15 server is able to host at least 10k-15k people at a time. This could be costly but it can highly improve the online at a time playerbase because that means 10-15 k each server and our current active one time playerbase is around 100-150k people if we count the pc+steam+console playerbase. The full active playerbase is probably 20-22 million from 35 million. The good connectivity could mean the game can get receive better critics and reputation because the online experience is much better.

I do not have problem with the p2p systems but if these not given a good netcode and they build up a game upon these codes then the end result will be lackluster. The host migration and the losing items due this is not really acceptable and no matter if they are poor or rich developers but any company whom willing to make online game should guarantee the basic options for the online experience. They partly achieve this with the p2p model but there is always place for improvements. 

I do not want to be trash with them and asks how much money they earn from the free to play system but certainly better for money generation than a one time buy or sub fee game which actually needs you to pay for server costs and maintances which inclued the salaries and other expenses.

 

I know also that is hard to change now because it needs to redone the whole infrastructure and it expands the developement time to charge for dedicated servers. In the long term maybe it can be profitable or less expensive if they check the regions where there could be servers. Africa and Australia is mostly second or third time options because the African playerbase mostly poor the Australians are less in population than Canada. Despite this I would like to put 1-2 server into Australia, 3-5 in Africa, 5 In Asia includes Japan-Russia (european and asian part), 3 in Europe and the rest in America. This could be costly depend on which server provider do you rent but achievable. At least they can asks some kind of sub fee (optional) and keep the microtransactions and those whom wish to play freely they still can and then those whom pay for server costs will get some extras or just option to play with less lags.

 

If I were rich I personally would just drop few million into a 10 year server rent then I can enjoy the game and others too with less or no lags at all. The 5g technology anyway around the corner which means probably these issues could be solved and can drastically reduce the server costs and can increase the stability and performance what we mostly need. 

[chaotea]

I used to have terrible internet. In those days i would just solo. Its tough, but dedicated servers wouldnt do jack. Its not the hosts connection, its yours thats the issue. The best connection gets picked as host after a migration, so if you're not picked, its not you.

On 2019-01-01 at 4:36 AM, _Dan said:

At the very least,  please give us the option to choose if we want to always be the host... Is that possible?

So people with terrible connections can choose to always host, there by making sure that other people always have a bad connection? Doesnt seem very reasonable.

[Methanoid]

too expensive, also where would you host these servers and in what ratio, giving people with toaster pc's, slow as anything 5400rpm archaic HD's or terrible upload speeds an opt-out would be more preferable.

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-01-01 at 9:04 AM, _Dan said:

My tone is like this because it seems when ever anyone makes a suggestion on this forum about basic things that need fixing an army of people with thousands of post jump to DE's defense with illogical and backwards thinking because they are so invested and just blind to the issues of this game, it's like a cult, really odd.

I think you're kind of missing the point here, if it defaults to a person with the best connection; GREAT!!! that is the whole point, there won't be warping, doors not opening, or drop outs.. that would mean the person with the best connection is the host. The issue here, (as I have said multiple times already) is people with BAD connections being the host to public games.

Hi there, I've worked for a network security company for the last  ~10 years and have another 10 years of general network dev experience before that. Determining the "quality" of someones connection compared to a bunch of others is not easy, RTT's with trivial ICMP do not tell the whole story. So unless you want to artificially saturate each player's up and downstream connection, in each combination for each team forming attempt, keaving it saturated to defeat burst protection and briken router QOS, then measuring latency is nothing more than a guess at performance.

I've also talked to some of DE's programmers at TennoVIP 2016, they are not morons. They really are doing a lot to try and mitigate bad hosting situations but it is a very very hard problem unless you are happy to allocate infinite team joining time and mass bandwith thrashing during team finding and host allocation.

The number of moving objects and update rate of actor object updates in Warframe is much, much higher that most games, that is the major issue, and DE have done a lot to optimise for that, but Warframe is an unusually high bandwidth game for the host.

Edited January 4, 2019 by SilentMobius

[_Dan]

cool, well the jiggabeam overdrive is completely discombobulated and there are at least 12 ultra high density uberboosters that just went into dsync just a few seconds ago.  What I'm trying to say is i have no idea what you are talking about. but what I do know is that roughly 12 minutes ago at the end of the 2nd defense sortie today the host migrated and sent me back to my orbiter with nothing to show for it on the second to last wave, I lost around 15 minutes of my life i could have spent mindless browsing the internet or something. 

Do I think DE are morons? not in the slightest, they are ultra talented people who have made a game that I'm massively addicted to, with beautiful original art direction and the most fluid movement and shooting mechanics I've ever experienced in a game. I've spent hundreds of pounds on prime access' vaulted primes, plat. but man, no other game does this. that's all I'm trying to say, I'm sure it's a difficut problem to fix, but it's still a problem. and while they are quick to fix mesa's rear end, I wish they would openly be like 'Yeah this issue really sucks we can try and make a 'always be host' option' or just SOMETHING at the very least.

Edited January 4, 2019 by _Dan

[Sibernetika]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

Quote the part where I sad “bad fibres.”

If you’d like to have a conversation with me, I’d appreciate if you didn’t talk for me.

You said the Internet is the problem ie the connection, so that can be fibre or adsl or 4g heck maybe even satellite.. These are all the options I could have used in response to you blaming the Internet.. But more importantly I had to point out that distance does in fact affect your connection speed and packet quality.

[Ifacro]

hace 7 horas, (PS4)Mono-Pop dijo:

In my destiny clan, we had people from all over the world, our raid team consisted of an American couple that lived in Texas, a guy from Europe and a few people in between.

Sure, you’re just going to have to take my word for it, but we ran Destiny raids for a month, ping was never an issue.

Well, congratulations for breaking the laws of physics, but there is at least 3.33 microseconds delay per kilometer due to the speed of light being finite, so excuse me if I doubt your word.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I disagree. Its not a huge issue. Otherwise, when someone wants to leave... It could be a delay so host can change. Ive played other games with this mechanic. Works in every case except if someone pulls the plug.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

3 hours ago, _Dan said:

cool, well the jiggabeam overdrive is completely discombobulated and there are at least 12 ultra high density uberboosters that just went into dsync just a few seconds ago.  What I'm trying to say is i have no idea what you are talking about. but what I do know is that roughly 12 minutes ago at the end of the 2nd defense sortie today the host migrated and sent me back to my orbiter with nothing to show for it on the second to last wave, I lost around 15 minutes of my life i could have spent mindless browsing the internet or something. 

Do I think DE are morons? not in the slightest, they are ultra talented people who have made a game that I'm massively addicted to, with beautiful original art direction and the most fluid movement and shooting mechanics I've ever experienced in a game. I've spent hundreds of pounds on prime access' vaulted primes, plat. but man, no other game does this. that's all I'm trying to say, I'm sure it's a difficut problem to fix, but it's still a problem. and while they are quick to fix mesa's rear end, I wish they would openly be like 'Yeah this issue really sucks we can try and make a 'always be host' option' or just SOMETHING at the very least.

OMG??? 15 minutes??? So what.

[SilentMobius]

4 hours ago, _Dan said:

No other game does this. that's all I'm trying to say, I'm sure it's a difficut problem to fix, but it's still a problem. and while they are quick to fix mesa's rear end, I wish they would openly be like 'Yeah this issue really sucks we can try and make a 'always be host' option' or just SOMETHING at the very least.

No other game is a self-published p2p network twitch shooter with mass enemy states to synchronize. No other game produces this volume of art and dev assets without charge.

4 hours ago, _Dan said:

and while they are quick to fix mesa's rear end,

Which involves opening up max or maya that spending 30 mins doing retopo and re-weighting

4 hours ago, _Dan said:

I wish they would openly be like 'Yeah this issue really sucks we can try and make a 'always be host' option' or just SOMETHING at the very least.

They do, frequently. Like when they created a packet relay to overcome NAT problems with people's broken routers or when they made massive changes to the loot model to reduce network bandwidth usage or when they changed the physics settling functions to go, more quickly, from mobile to static objects that no longer need network sync

4 hours ago, _Dan said:

Yeah this issue really sucks we can try and make a 'always be host' option' 

Which everyone turns on then we're back at the start, or worse, most people turn it on so the only clients they see are few who are more likely to have low quality connections to them. Making the current state worse

DE have thought about this, they have acted, they continue to make changes, it is not as easy as you surmise, this is literal Dunning Kruger at work here.

Edited January 4, 2019 by SilentMobius

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

If not getting servers for matchmaking, at least fix the options that <100ms connections are also to other <100ms connections. Getting a "host migration" to someone's computer and all you see is a 12fps slideshow, is NOT proper "host migration". 20fps drop isn't the end of the world, but a 50fps drop is!

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

4 hours ago, _Dan said:

What I'm trying to say is i have no idea what you are talking about. but what I do know is that roughly 12 minutes ago at the end of the 2nd defense sortie today the host migrated and sent me back to my orbiter with nothing to show for it on the second to last wave, I lost around 15 minutes of my life i could have spent mindless browsing the internet or something. 

You know that suggests that either there were multiple points of failure, or possibly just one. Is it possible that you are experiencing so many failures because of something on your end? 

[iuki.]

i went back to d2/the division of late and the difference in p2p performance compared to WF is so much more superior: i don't lose rewards ever due to bad hosts nor do i have lag. and this is playing with people from asia/russia, the opposite side of the globe from me. yet in wf, i have NEVER had an unlaggy MP game, it's varying degrees of it to passable to unplayable: it's only in single player i get a consistant good experience. so i wonder what TD and destiny is doing that's better than wf i wonder. how can they can give me a nice stable ping when wf can't? hopefulley, at the very least, we will see improvements to the p2p system in the future.

Edited January 5, 2019 by iuki.

[NocheLuz]

5 hours ago, _Dan said:

but what I do know is that roughly 12 minutes ago at the end of the 2nd defense sortie today the host migrated and sent me back to my orbiter with nothing to show for it on the second to last wave, I lost around 15 minutes of my life i could have spent mindless browsing the internet or something.

A little bit of a tip here. Like how the Host have privilege of not getting disconnected, other players who join the session also have the privilege of reconnecting to the host too. This will require a quick wits and some quick fingers. When the Host migration appear, don't wait until it's end. You can close the Warframe Application to forcefully shutdown the game process and started a new one. Remember that if you're the next host and doing this will cause any other players who waiting to join the new host got Host migration failed (which I assume most of the players do). When you log-in again, the game server never knew you were trying to created a new session so it'll ask you if you wants to reconnect to the previous host (that you got DCed in the first place). If the session still online, and mission is not done/no other players replace you in the sqaud. There are high chance you'll get reconnect and get the reward. Remember that this method will discarded any of your Exp and Items that you get before hand.

This tip is helpful for me who got frequently DCed (which mean I, alone who got DC). So I can reconnected to the host and play with them again. This tip will works as long as the host migration is not finish. But if you're the next host, the host migration is very fast and if you close the game will cause other players to got Host migration failed (again, it's importance so I have to say it twice). So, when you're in the squad. Look for the number in the player name. Normally if you're number 2 the game will automatically decided that you're the new host, in case of something happen (meaning you'll have a very little chance of getting Host Migration Failed). If you're number 3 or 4 feel free to use this trick to get back to your squad.

[NocheLuz]

8 minutes ago, iuki. said:

i went back to d2/the division of late and the difference in p2p models compared to WF is much superior: i don't lose rewards due to bad hosts nor do i have lag. and this is playing with people from asia/russia, the opposite side of the globe from me. yet in wf, i have NEVER had an unlaggy game, it's varying degrees of it to passable to unplayable: it's only in single player i get a consistant good experience. so i wonder what TD and destiny is doing that's better than wf i wonder. hopefulley, at the very least, we will see improvements to the p2p system in the future b/c it really needs it.

About Destiny 2 : https://wccftech.com/destiny-2-hybrid-client-server-p2p/

I like how PSO2 works, the game run in your computer. Enemies movement (except Bosses) are calculate in your computer but any damage will have to go to the server to process. Meaning you alone will never feel lag (but you still can see other players warping around you lol). But PSO2 is purely Server/Clients no P2P bussiness there.

Edited January 5, 2019 by NocheLuz
some typo...

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

10 hours ago, nslay said:

Assuming it's even practical to host a significant number of games on any one server with smooth performance, the only feasible way to do this is to host regional server farms to reduce latency in those regions: North America, South America, Europe, Africa, Asia, and Oceania.

It won't solve the problem with clan members being in different countries, but neither would one set of servers hosted in one location.

Nothing will resolve that, but playing with players from your region only.

Aussies and Kiwis had 300+ms pings to LA in WoW, until they got their their regional servers. But NA trying to play with them still, it'll be that experience of a guy yelling at me about why I didn't kill X when X didn't exist anymore and long gone. Literally he stood there yelling about a guy he saw only. Round trip that would be at least 600ms pings. He saw things we already finished seconds ago.

Want the <100ms connections and stable connections other players you HAVE to play with others in your region with a regional server. Even though I'm on the east coast, I wouldn't play with EU players willingly in an agility game. Too many points of failure inbetween.

When I rented a BF3 server it was based in Atlanta, as I specifically only wanted to play with Southeastern/East coast players with 10-30ms pings, and specifically sought Internap bandwidth (not Cogent) to ensure stable multi-peered connections (as that is what the Atlanta datacenter can offer -- it's linked to 7 major pipelines, so covers almost every ISP in NA, too). It costs a mint, but connections were NOOOO problem!

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

3 hours ago, Ifacro said:

Well, congratulations for breaking the laws of physics, but there is at least 3.33 microseconds delay per kilometer due to the speed of light being finite, so excuse me if I doubt your word.

No, functional online games don’t break the laws of physics.

 

 

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

5 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

You said the Internet is the problem ie the connection, so that can be fibre or adsl or 4g heck maybe even satellite.. These are all the options I could have used in response to you blaming the Internet.. But more importantly I had to point out that distance does in fact affect your connection speed and packet quality.

I didn’t say the internet was the problem, I’m on the side of people that are saying P2P connections are the problem.

Are you even reading what I say?

If anything, you guys in the opposition are saying the internet is the problem, because apparently you can’t play online games together if you live in different countries.

 

Which is like... half the reason the internet exists.... to bring people across the world together 😐

 

But no, because Warframe can’t do it ITS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE THATS NOT HOW INTERNET DO YOU SO DUMB.

It’s almost like there’s a reason developers and publishers use dedicated servers in the first place 😐

Oh woah, wouldn’t that be amazing.

 

 

[NocheLuz]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

If anything, you guys in the opposition are saying the internet is the problem, because apparently you can’t play online games together if you live in different countries.

You can play but very laggy. When I'm play NA server games, it's playable but very lag. And the lag is cause by the distance between the server and clients. Even if you link fiber optic directly into the server it'll still cause the lag. Not to mention, it needed a lot of hop to reach the destination. Each hop will also delay the packet travel time, and it's the main cause of the lag.

40 minutes ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

But no, because Warframe can’t do it ITS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE THATS NOT HOW INTERNET DO YOU SO DUMB.

It’s almost like there’s a reason developers and publishers use dedicated servers in the first place 😐

Oh woah, wouldn’t that be amazing.

AFAIK, dedicated server make it easier to control the hacking and centralize the data flow. Although, it's still have to do with how the game handle the data. Some game will let the clients do the damage calculation (mostly the older game that have no RNG element). Some game will have the server do the calculation (the enemies will only damage if the data do get send to server). It's depend on how the game works but it has nothing to do with how internet works. Even if the world all equipped with fastest internet in the world, some P2P games will still exist because it's loosen the server load.

[Beartornado]

On 2019-01-03 at 3:16 PM, Zeclem said:

an example is an example. and there is quite a massive difference between 200 and 300 as well, especially when you consider de doesnt have to give a damn about balance like they have to. 

That once again assumes the Overwatch devs actually care about balance, as far as I can tell "balance" is whatever sells OWL. At the cost of only 100 employees your golden example of Overwatch manages to go through content droughts that make Warframe look like a content flood by comparison. This isn't a good example and never will be, pick a AAA dev that's actually putting in a AAA effort instead of one whose soul is being devoured by one of the scumblishers in the industry.

This also ignores the very existence of the Riven system and the fact that PvE still has to be balanced with a roster of enemies, weapons, frames etc that dwarfs Overwatch by a long mile. In both PvP and PvE balance is important for making a good experience. 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Beartornado

[Zeclem]

15 hours ago, Beartornado said:

That once again assumes the Overwatch devs actually care about balance, as far as I can tell "balance" is whatever sells OWL. At the cost of only 100 employees your golden example of Overwatch manages to go through content droughts that make Warframe look like a content flood by comparison. This isn't a good example and never will be, pick a AAA dev that's actually putting in a AAA effort instead of one whose soul is being devoured by one of the scumblishers in the industry.

This also ignores the very existence of the Riven system and the fact that PvE still has to be balanced with a roster of enemies, weapons, frames etc that dwarfs Overwatch by a long mile. In both PvP and PvE balance is important for making a good experience. 

its not a "golden example". any triple a franchise that doesnt do yearly releases of the same title has studio sizes around those numbers, and warframe doesnt exactly make content thats worth a whole new game every year. 

pve isnt balanced in this game at all tho, much less than balance of overwatch's pvp. if that was the case we wouldnt have frames like saryn, inaros or mesa. and riven system? are you serious or joking? the amount of times that riven dispositions got changed are less than years they were on the game, and none of those changes were anything noteworthy. after that comparison its clear that you dont have much of an idea about what you are talking about. have a good day. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Zeclem