Haven't you guys made enough money at this point to have dedicated servers?

[_Dan]

11 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I hate to say this and I know you're going to hate me for saying this...but have you ever considered forming teams in advance through friends/clanmates and invites? I'm not 100% sure, but I think if you are in an friends/invite only team whoever sends the invitations will be the host, though I could be wrong on that. If I'm not though, it could serve as a short-term solution for the time being. I'm also not making this suggestion to tell you to not complain, trust me, I've lost a lot progress from connection issues myself, I'm only suggesting this in an attempt to help in some small way.

hey man, thanks, yeah this does make you the host, sadly all my friends who play this game are in the UK. I play mostly on my own in public in Asia region, but thanks for the suggestion

Edited January 1, 2019 by _Dan

[Corvid]

12 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

so people would have better connection to ones with crappy internet than i do?

Considering that upload/download rates are only one factor of several, yes.

[Zeclem]

2 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Considering that upload/download rates are only one factor of several, yes.

are you actually reading or are you just trolling? download and upload speeds are only factors because they already include any possible case from distance to stability. 

and even when you ignore that part, theres simply nothing but crappy netcode that explains why my S#&$ tier connection at home keeps getting hosts half the time when im playing there. 

[WhiteMarker]

1 hour ago, _Dan said:

the one with the strongest ping based on their selected location is chosen to be the host. Hardly rocket science

I love the fact that you believe a good ping is enough to decide anything.
The fact that you don't understand this means it is rocket science.

Let's say someone from the DE-office is logging in from the server. His ping to the server is just godly. Let's 1 ms.
This doesn't mean the connection to the 3 party members will be good. The connection to everyone in the team could still be 1k ms.
The whole round will be a total mess because of laggs.

So no, selecting the one with a good ping is a horrible idea.

But thank god it isn't rocket science XD

[Aldain]

15 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

heres simply nothing but crappy netcode that explains why my S#&$ tier connection at home keeps getting hosts half the time when im playing there

Well...it could just be that you might have been the best option to host and every other possible host out of the 1-3 other players have worse hosing ability than you do.

The netcode could use an improvement I will admit, but I can't fault some of the effort that it takes to make the best of an imperfect situation.

[thewhalechan]

Prime Dedicated Server Access, problem solved. Costs covered and still possible to play with p2p hosts.

[LupisV0lk]

11 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

I agree. The game would benefit greatly from dedicated servers. Heck, if they're unsure, make a test year with a monthly 10$ fee, and call it server founders or so.. I'd be willing to pay. 

Add a subscription and i leave, i'd wager others would as well. Subscription games are a cancer that thankfully are dying off.

Also if, and i say if i supported it i'd have to hold DE to a massively higher standard of quality due to that subscription service.

[Olphalarepth]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Ah yes, insult the people who you're trying to get on your side. It's a novel strategy, so let's see how it works out for you.

We aren't blind to the issues. We're just aware of the problems that potential solutions bring, because over the course of the past 5 years, every single thing you've said has already been suggested.

The game already checks for the best host when it's creating the session. Every single issue you mention would still occur with your proposal. The only difference would be that some people would have the option to make the experience more consistently bad for themselves.

He/she did not insult. Don't put words in anyone mouths in order to strengthen your own position. He makes a fairly good point and I gave him an upvote so I don' think he's doing that badly.

The game does not check for best host or we wouldn't see this kind of things. The one who creates the session is the host as identified by the numbers next to the name of the players when in party and the game switches to next one that joined. I have a really good connections and when this happens I always consider the ping and kind of mission. I can endure a 100/160 ping for a single one but it's a defense or survival I quit right at mission start. I can agree that new servers would be too expensive but many issues could be solved by a simple "do not join current session if detected ping is not optimal; create new instance". Between the ping disaster and the inability to extract at will of some endless missions DE has solved nothing so far

 

[FlusteredFerret]

5 hours ago, _Dan said:

So is Prime access.

Sorry but that's just not an excuse for that I will accept at this point, I too, have a soft spot for DE, but this isn't the 'little struggling indie team' anymore, this p2p host system is hugely unstable, inconsistent, and outdated. its destroying the game experience for many people, they need to change it, simple as that.

Dedicated servers won't necessarily lead to improved playing experiences for everyone.

I play a few other MMOs that have them and the forums are still full of players complaining about high ping rates, crashes etc.

A lot will still depend on your location, network connection quality and the route used between your PC and the servers.

 

For the record, I agree that host migrations can be hugely frustrating, but switching from a P2P system to dedicated servers isn't going to be a magic bullet that suddenly provides a perfect solution.

Its something that has been mentioned on dev streams in the past, but I don't know that its a big priority for DE at the moment. More of a "nice to do in the future" kind of target.

[(PSN)Herrwann69]

OP is right, it's terrible to play in Asia because of the P2P connection. 

If I got team with Japanese or Korean the game runs very well but as their are not so much people playing this game in those countries I'm getting teamed with other countries people and thing can get really bad, not all the time but very often.

If nothing can be done for servers or hosting choice then can DE try to debug the host migration problem ?

[FlusteredFerret]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

OP is right, it's terrible to play in Asia because of the P2P connection. 

If I got team with Japanese or Korean the game runs very well but as their are not so much people playing this game in those countries I'm getting teamed with other countries people and thing can get really bad, not all the time but very often.

If nothing can be done for servers or hosting choice then can DE try to debug the host migration problem ?

 

I don't think thats something that can be "de-bugged".

 

With a P2P system, the host is effectively the server. If they have a flaky connection...or if its not strong enough to cope with hosting additional players, then thats something that is beyond DE's control.

Whereas if we all connected directly to DE's server, they could try increasing their capacity, or doing things to create more stable connections.

 

I think it would make sense for them to make the switch - it would give them more control over that aspect of the game. However, as I said in my previous post, it won't guarantee everyone a better playing experience. Even games with dedicated servers still have problems with lag, packet loss, crashes etc.

 

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

6 hours ago, _Dan said:

So is Prime access.

Sorry but that's just not an excuse for that I will accept at this point, I too, have a soft spot for DE, but this isn't the 'little struggling indie team' anymore, this p2p host system is hugely unstable, inconsistent, and outdated. its destroying the game experience for many people, they need to change it, simple as that.

As someone who lives in Australia, I’ve had to stop participating in missions and events with my clan. They are largely based in Europe or America, and none of them can connect to me without getting 400-500ms ping.

I have very good internet, when I play alone or in public games things are normally fine.

With my clan mates?

Transferance can take anywhere from 2 seconds, to 15.

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

1 hour ago, LupisV0lk said:

Add a subscription and i leave, i'd wager others would as well. Subscription games are a cancer that thankfully are dying off.

Also if, and i say if i supported it i'd have to hold DE to a massively higher standard of quality due to that subscription service.

That higher standard of quality would be the improved connected from dedicated servers that you’re paying the subscription fee for...

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

6 hours ago, _Dan said:

So is Prime access.

Sorry but that's just not an excuse for that I will accept at this point, I too, have a soft spot for DE, but this isn't the 'little struggling indie team' anymore, this p2p host system is hugely unstable, inconsistent, and outdated. its destroying the game experience for many people, they need to change it, simple as that.

Don't forget that DE is still a company in which people work to life.

What do you prefer a game with some connection problems which only a small part of the player's have OR a evermore smaller and slower team because they don't have enough money the make sure everyone who is working get his salary to life on.

Unless you don't have any sources which reveals DE's profit, you shouldn't ask for something like this. 

[thewhalechan]

I'll go a step further and claim something else. It's a hypothesis, I don't know how p2p works or how are calculations are done.

With 42NA part 2, I and a couple of others I know noticed something weird. Even when my ping to the host is largely okay and usually isn't a problem when playing on normal nodes/missions I can get "lags". It's not a ping spike or altogether high ping. It's almost as if, and here comes the assumption, it's because the hosts PC is not up to par to handle us. I suspect that everything we (moving, ability use, etc) do has to be sent to, processed by and sent out to everyone else in the squad. And because of the shear scale of the open world and the messy orb fight (where I noticed the most of this problem) can cause eventual "lags" or delays and rendering the orb fight a torture or straight impossible.

I assume a dedicated server option would help this a LOT, at least for open world maps make it available. Other nodes are way smaller with way less carnage going on. Or if that's still too much, let me rate the hosts. Much like report, I would rate the host to be "laggy" or "high ping", or "ping spikey", and in time the game could unprioritize badly rated hosts, in a way indirectly solving the case of "let me chose to be the host". I've been in games where the host knew and apologised for being a bad host, it ain't fun for them to be on that end of the stick, nor for us to suffer through a game or leave early.

[FlusteredFerret]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

That higher standard of quality would be the improved connected from dedicated servers that you’re paying the subscription fee for...

Thats not guaranteed though.

I play games with dedicated servers (and I'm pretty sure many people here do) and the quality of gameplay can still vary enormously, depending on where you live and what standard of connection you have.

 

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Thats not guaranteed though.

I play games with dedicated servers (and I'm pretty sure many people here do) and the quality of gameplay can still vary enormously, depending on where you live and what standard of connection you have.

 

Put simply, Dedicated servers don't give a better or worse experience, just a more consistent one.

[FlusteredFerret]

5 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Put simply, Dedicated servers don't give a better or worse experience, just a more consistent one.

Yeah. You get rid of the host migration issue, which I agree can be hugely annoying...but you can still be subject to all the other problems with MMO games.

 

I just have this feeling that even if DE switched to dedicated servers, there would still be a lot of threads from people with poor / unstable connections, complaining & demanding DE fix those issues too. 

 

Personally I will admit Fortuna is an issue for me right now. Most of the time I can't play squads, as they are nearly always interrupted / disbanded, because someone lost connection. So I can't do the higher level bounties for now.

 

[Shadow-Spawn]

4 hours ago, LupisV0lk said:

Well sorry bucko but that's the truth. Dedicated servers are frigging expensive. There are times when even AAA games struggle to cover their costs.

I have an old server that DE can get free of charge 😉 - and we can start an indiegogo campaign to crowdfund the rest.😉

In all seriousness - DE needs to fix the host migration issues one way or another - they can probably code themselves out of the issues, if not then they need to look for a new server setup.

[Amhiel]

While I don't agree with switching the game to server based, I do think matchmaking needs a big overhaul. It is one the most important technical aspects of the game and one of the biggest sources of complaints. 

However, in the meantime there are steps you can take to make your life easier: if you're having problems with other people hosting, lower your max ping requirements and try switching regions; if your computer or connection is the problem, change it to laptop mode and make extensive use of the "wait for players" button. 

Maybe the game should test your computer and connection on startup and give it a rating. If it detects potential problems it should increase the wait time for your matchmaking and set a harder ping cap before allowing anyone to join your game. 

[NocheLuz]

1 hour ago, Shadow-Spawn said:

I have an old server that DE can get free of charge 😉 - and we can start an indiegogo campaign to crowdfund the rest.😉

In all seriousness - DE needs to fix the host migration issues one way or another - they can probably code themselves out of the issues, if not then they need to look for a new server setup.

AFAIK, the cost per month without maintenance and storing data cost is about 30k to 100k $ per month. Warframe on Steam have a concurrent player of about 10k to 30k players and not counting PS4, Xbox, Nintendo, Discord and anyone who use standalone Launcher.

Not to mention Warframe is global game. Which mean they needed to place server all over the world. If you place a server in only America you looking for atleast 3 servers there to satisfied the players in America and have a ping of about 100-200ms. If you connect from Europe your ping can be 300-500ms and if you connect from Asia your ping will be 500-1,000+ms. Even if they did place server in SEA, the plyers in China, Japan and Korea will still have 300+ms ping because it's still to far from them. If you plae it in China, players from Philinpine will have higher ping (and possibly from some SEA region players). They will needed a lot of Server to just satisfied the players and have constant ping of about 100-200ms and that will cost them a lot.

Ref : https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/4a9qyo/server_costs/

https://aws.amazon.com/th/gamelift/pricing/

Edit : I just check on Steam... Warframe have concurrent players of about 40k-60k players which is double of what I said eariler lol... That 10k-30k was from last year...

Edited January 1, 2019 by NocheLuz

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

Don't forget that DE is still a company in which people work to life.

What do you prefer a game with some connection problems which only a small part of the player's have OR a evermore smaller and slower team because they don't have enough money the make sure everyone who is working get his salary to life on.

Unless you don't have any sources which reveals DE's profit, you shouldn't ask for something like this. 

this is the excuse that is actually so wrong that it should be a reason to ban. warframe is not a small game, so lets stop pretending as if de is barely making ends meet. there are plenty of games smaller than warframe AND have dedicated servers.

and to people who think dedicated servers wont be perfect, newsflash. nothing is perfect. thats not the point. point is, it would help the problem massively. if you have a bad connection in this system, you will either have bad experience for yourself or for everybody else in your squad. if you have bad connection with dedicated servers, at the very least you wont be hurting other peoples experiences. that by itself is a massive improvement. 

[(PSN)Zero_029]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

I agree. The game would benefit greatly from dedicated servers. Heck, if they're unsure, make a test year with a monthly 10$ fee, and call it server founders or so.. I'd be willing to pay. 

Dedicated servers would require DE to restructure thebMicro transaction system & probably offer or require a montly subscription.

AAA devs who don't charge monthly or use some form of monetization that forces players to pay struggle with Dedicated Server costs & eventually swap over to a p2p system usually in secret.

Right now here in Dallas, TX... 

A Dedicated server with 1x4 cores, 16GB DDR3 RAM, 1x1TB SATA, that supports up to 10 TB of traffic goes for $76.99-93.99 a month (depends in certain configurations).

Now...that 1 server is not S#&$ for Warframe's numbers. So multiply that by...uh...the thousands.

As that servers 10tb traffic limitation will fill with just a few handful of player sessions.

I'm trying to find the numbers but just multiplying that by 1000 servers comes to $73,990 - $93,990 a month.

So factoring in PC, PS4, XB1, & NSW...

DE would easily be paying over 1 mil a month. And that's the cheap server.

The best ones available in Dallas have: dedicated

2x10 cores, 128GB DDR4 RAM, 1x240GB SSD, also cap at around 10 TB traffic. 

Those START at $299.99 a month, and go as far at $329.99 a month.

Of course this is server rental.

Buying them outright...the cheapest servers start at around $700. But now upkeep, maintenance staff, a warehouse to store them in are now a monthly recurrance.

If DE were to do Dedicated Severs then I'd expect to see the "earn stuff for free" part of Warframe vanish. I'd also expect the game structure to change period. As DE would need an absurd amount of money to support a playerbase of its size.

Jeez...researching all that...make me wonder what CoD & other FPS games must cost to run monthly...

Edit:

Obviously my math isn't 100%. I'm also being extremely generous in terms of users laying at the same time & how much data player sessions use. Just an FYI

Edited January 1, 2019 by (PS4)Zero_029

[Thaelyn2]

6 hours ago, _Dan said:

 if it defaults to a person with the best connection; GREAT!!! that is the whole point, there won't be warping, doors not opening, or drop outs..

If only I hadn't experienced every one of those isdsues in a game with a ping less than 150ms.

 

I don't know if what you're suggesting would help the situation appreciably or not, I have nev er bothered to learn about how such things work.  What I do know is that, as stated above, I've had every one of those problems with a good ping.

[BabyKurama]