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Haven't you guys made enough money at this point to have dedicated servers?


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52 minutes ago, _Dan said:

I don't need any

Good that is still working you are aware how you kinda just tossed any and all of your credibility with that right?

"DE can afford this easy" 
*Citation Requested*
"I don't need proof i know i'm right though logical thinking and common sense"

You are aware you just said you don't need proof for this claim right? you know something that if you were right would strengthen your position if you had but instead you do the opposite

so if i'm seeing this correctly bare in mind i'm indifferent about this whole situation i could care less p2p or dedicated my problem is this you have presented a claim with no backed up evidence only claiming you don't need and your word is good enough for the numbers of players overall and some estimated amounts of plat purchases to make the cost of something that costs easily cost thousands upon thousands for all said players even then you got them in Canada woohoo (Balloons fall from ceiling) how about players in Germany, Russia, and the UK they need to connect to those servers still all you did was move the host location from possibly nearby to a fixed spot that could be even worse. To fix that you would need more servers in different locations to help the connection so you raised the price more for those servers then up keep in parts for them and the pay for the employees the process of either moving someone there or hiring in that area also renting or buying a building to house the server and the payments needed for the facilities for the employees if one isn't there and i'm pretty sure DE has no offices in Germany, Russia, or the UK correct me if im wrong 

so got a citation for the claim or is your logical thinking and common sense good enough still to accurately know DE's financial balance for spending on these things?

 

Edited by seprent
auto correct borked abit
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1 hour ago, _Dan said:

I don't need any, it's a little thing I use called common sense and logical thinking. While 40 million people have accounts, I realize a small percentage of these will have purchased plat or cosmetics, I'd bank on the large majority of that 40million became totally overwhelmed by the multitude of mechanics not explained to them and gave up in the first few hours. even a small amount of 40million is a huge number.

And as a game that has been at the top of the concurrent player list on steam for the best part of 5 years now, being multi platform. There's no way on earth DE are unable to afford dedicated servers, even if they cost 30k a month. But of course, its much easier to leave in their outdated, unstable P2P host system in, screw the guy who only has a couple of hours here and there to play and have a terrible game experience.

You might want to re-think your "logical thinking".

According to Steamcharts, Warframe has around 60,000 active players on any given day, with an all-time record of 131k, over the last 4 years.

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410

So while there may have been 40 million accounts created, it seems far fewer players have actually stuck around.

 

Even adding in all the non-Steam and console players isn't going to raise that number hugely. At best, the game probably has somewhere in the region of 250-300k active players.

 

Now consider how many of those will be regular Prime Access (or whatever premium accounts are called) buyers...lets be generous and call it 20% (likely a fair bit lower) - thats only 50-60k people. Now factor in how many regular platinum buyers there are (e.g. at least once a month)...again not a huge number. This group will make up the bulk of DE's revenue stream. Prime frames / bundles will be another big source of income, but will be less regular.

So, your theory that DE should be rolling in cash doesn't really hold much weight. 

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18 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

According to Steamcharts, Warframe has around 60,000 active players on any given day, with an all-time record of 131k, over the last 4 years.

Worth noting that since that chart lists concurrent players, not total unique players, the number may be a fair bit higher than listed. Assuming an average daily playtime of six hours per player (a high estimate) and a relatively even distribution of players logging in and out each hour, the listed number could potentially be as low as a quarter of the actual number of players.

Not that I'm saying this changes anything with regards to DE's income, just that care must be taken in the application of statistics such as these.

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19 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Worth noting that since that chart lists concurrent players, not total unique players, the number may be a fair bit higher than listed. Assuming an average daily playtime of six hours per player (a high estimate) and a relatively even distribution of players logging in and out each hour, the listed number could potentially be as low as a quarter of the actual number of players.

Not that I'm saying this changes anything with regards to DE's income, just that care must be taken in the application of statistics such as these.

Fair point, but even bumping the number of active Steam players to 200k and an overall total of 500k across all platforms, I think DE would be lucky to have 100k regular prime access players, plat buyers etc.

Which is still a far cry from the 40 million registered accounts.

I remember reading somewhere that with other F2P games, such as World of Tanks, only around 5-10% of players run regular / continuous premium accounts (though they have far more active players, so even with the lower percentage, thats still quite a large number of players).

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47 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Fair point, but even bumping the number of active Steam players to 200k and an overall total of 500k across all platforms, I think DE would be lucky to have 100k regular prime access players, plat buyers etc.

Which is still a far cry from the 40 million registered accounts.

I remember reading somewhere that with other F2P games, such as World of Tanks, only around 5-10% of players run regular / continuous premium accounts (though they have far more active players, so even with the lower percentage, thats still quite a large number of players).

Anecdotal, I know, but out of the 10 or so people I know personally who play the game, I'm the only one who purchases PA routinely.

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16 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Okay dude, are you seriously comparing Digital Extreme to Activision-Blizzard ?

Are you also thinking that the Graphics (maps, textures) are hosted by the host and are not coming from your own computer ? Do you think that Blizzard is hosting the HD textures for every mob/rift every time you're playing ?

I'm not trying to compare companies, but I do suspect from the content depth and history of updates that Warframe probably makes boatloads more money than D3 which hosts dedicated game servers with a one-up purchase.

That's what is so remarkable about D3 server lag is that the server is only storing and processing purely meta data about the map, monsters and players!  And that map data (monster locations, item drop locations, player locations, etc...) is 2D information. The servers have trouble processing 2D information... Heck, I've killed large goblin packs and watched item drops sputter. Imagine that... I wager that Warframe is even more computationally expensive and a P2P solution makes sense if one server (in a server farm) could only host a handful of missions while maintaining smooth performance! P2P is really ugly and complicated... NAT hole punching? Host migration? Game integrity in a game where you can buy things? It's a miracle it works as well as it does...  

And for the record, I do believe Warframe makes DE comparable to Activision Blizzard. This game is nuts! I bought the least P2W package worth a AAA game just to support DE... They deserve it. And they deserve to be compared to the likes of Activision Blizzard, IMO.

Edited by nslay
Remove whitespace introduced by phone
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On 2018-12-31 at 10:18 PM, _Dan said:

So is Prime access.

Sorry but that's just not an excuse for that I will accept at this point, I too, have a soft spot for DE, but this isn't the 'little struggling dev team' anymore, this p2p host system is hugely unstable, inconsistent, and outdated. its destroying the game experience for many people, they need to change it, simple as that.

Not everyone buys prime access, let alone more than once.

 

I almost never have issues and I wonder if the people who complain the most about this, just have lousy internet service.

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On 2019-01-01 at 4:42 AM, Aldain said:

I hate to say this and I know you're going to hate me for saying this...but have you ever considered forming teams in advance through friends/clanmates and invites? I'm not 100% sure, but I think if you are in an friends/invite only team whoever sends the invitations will be the host, though I could be wrong on that. If I'm not though, it could serve as a short-term solution for the time being. I'm also not making this suggestion to tell you to not complain, trust me, I've lost a lot progress from connection issues myself, I'm only suggesting this in an attempt to help in some small way.

There is a big problem with this idea that seems to keep haunting my friend and I.

Thinking that just because your friends live closeby and we both having good internet, does NOT mean the system works any better than it should. I cant count the number of times either of us have been host migrated off each other during any mission type including tridolons and normal missions on two hands.

Example, both of us live in the same country, same province, in the SAME city, but different areas, yet around 15% of the time when we're playing in a closed group together it still decides to host migrate, and 60% of the time when we're in pubs but together it decides to host migrate to some guy who's giving both of us 200-900 ping.

Edited by birdobash
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On 2019-01-01 at 2:19 AM, _Dan said:

i wish they'd just give us an option 'Always be the host' is that too much to ask if they aren't willing to give us dedicated servers?

Yeah matchmaking needs to be OVERHAULED, to include options like this, as well as the 100 other QOL changes it needs, in order to fix this fundamentally broken part of the game.

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11 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

Yeah matchmaking needs to be OVERHAULED, to include options like this, as well as the 100 other QOL changes it needs, in order to fix this fundamentally broken part of the game.

As I have already said, such an option would change nothing.

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20 hours ago, Beartornado said:

You seem to be under the impression Overwatch is appropriately staffed and runs smoothly with a team of that size.

an example is an example. and there is quite a massive difference between 200 and 300 as well, especially when you consider de doesnt have to give a damn about balance like they have to. 

20 hours ago, (PS4)Mono-Pop said:

Uh, For honour is dead. 🤷🏻‍♂️

The less you follow in their shoes the better.

except it is far from dead lol.

Edited by Zeclem
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I dunno if this was said before, but the best solution imo would be to have "opt out of hosting" option in settings so those of us who have crappy internet could actually do something about it. There is no way that wouldn't reduce the amount of crappy hosts significantly.

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3 hours ago, Zeclem said:

an example is an example. and there is quite a massive difference between 200 and 300 as well, especially when you consider de doesnt have to give a damn about balance like they have to. 

except it is far from dead lol.

Wasn’t it’s servers closed months ago?

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8 hours ago, nslay said:

And for the record, I do believe Warframe makes DE comparable to Activision Blizzard. And they deserve to be compared to the likes of Activision Blizzard, IMO.

That's..... not a flattering thing to say to DE. :crylaugh:

Have you seen gaming news about those AAA companies for the past 5+ years?  They are terrible. To their customers and worse, their own employees. How much they earn loses its meaning if the sacrifices they made to earn so much is downright horrible quality & human treatment. Those corporations are run by businessmen who know (or care) nothing about gaming/gamers and think they know better.

But I digress,

I'm onboard with the "opt out from hosting" suggestions.  It's the easiest solution.

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46 minutes ago, MystMan said:

That's..... not a flattering thing to say to DE. :crylaugh:

Have you seen gaming news about those AAA companies for the past 5+ years?  They are terrible. To their customers and worse, their own employees. How much they earn loses its meaning if the sacrifices they made to earn so much is downright horrible quality & human treatment. Those corporations are run by businessmen who know (or care) nothing about gaming/gamers and think they know better.

But I digress,

I'm onboard with the "opt out from hosting" suggestions.  It's the easiest solution.

Why do you think I am here!? I grew up mostly playing Blizzard games (and some id games Quake, Quake II, Quake III!) 🙂

A lot of us Diablo 3 players started looking at other games after the Blizzcon debacle. Most went to Path of Exile. I went to Warframe because of its unusual mix of shooters and loot hunting. As I played and enjoyed both Overwatch and Diablo 3, I found that Warframe is an exquisite blend of the two and a little bit more!

What I mean to say is that DE deserves to be compared to companies like Blizzard from the old days because they could make something as rich and deep as Warframe! I wonder what DE's future looks like from here on!

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"Opt out from hosting" is not a good idea. People will abuse that option. If I am the host, my PC has to do all the job. This requires me to play Warframe, and do nothing more on my PC. When I am not the host - I can easily perform a lot of system resources consuming tasks while playing without losing any experience. I'm running a very weak connection (right now 250/150 Mbps, just because it is cheap and in fact - does the job for me) and still have no issues with that. Imagine what will happen if I'm given that option? I would never volounteer to be a host. Just that.

And now, even with a weak Internet connection - I almost never see complaints about me being a host, which makes me think that it is not the point here - I'm living in a densely populated country in the middle of Europe with a lot of WF players in it - enough just to use my native language in almost any PUG instead of english just because the game chooses me a party entirely from my country. And I think that this is the issue here. Weak playerbase in country X - you have to connect to others, which can create serious packet loss issues depending on international routing. Something that cannot possibly be fixed by dedicated servers located probably in EU, USA, Australia and maybye only one for Asia (still probably in Russia...) for a player from, let's say, Malaysia. For them, in fact, the best would be... Larger playerbase in their homecountry while keeping the P2P hosting system.

Also, if Warframe is entirely processed on the host's PC (and ppl here say it is) I'll blame a weak hardware for some poorer regions, or for the most - big differences in hardware performance between players. Difference quite proportional to the income gap that exists in those. Which is sad, unfair, but nothing DE can do about.

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9 hours ago, nslay said:

And for the record, I do believe Warframe makes DE comparable to Activision Blizzard. This game is nuts! I bought the least P2W package worth a AAA game just to support DE... They deserve it. And they deserve to be compared to the likes of Activision Blizzard, IMO.

That is a horrible, vile thing to say.

DE exist as the antithesis of Activision 😐

Edited by (PS4)Mono-Pop
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8 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Not everyone buys prime access, let alone more than once.

 

I almost never have issues and I wonder if the people who complain the most about this, just have lousy internet service.

Yeah of course, people who complain about this must be at fault !!. Here is my connection:

7fqFJrh.jpg

I also live a country ranked the 3rd fastest in the world for internet: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3549890 Literally every online game i play, from BF5, rainbow six siege etc, have no issues at all. Warframe is the only game that has a plethora of issues all of which are related to the AWFUL p2p system and bad hosts. 

I love this game, the whole reason i made this post is because this is the only thing that is ruining it for me, it is becoming unbearable, not just the fact i've lost hours of my free time, but the regular gameplay is just less enjoyable with the warping too. I'm not a particularly fussy gamer and I just don't feel like playing because of these very issues. And I'm not the only one.

Edited by _Dan
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Exactly my pointy, Dan. You live on an island. Ping means how much time packets need to travel between peers. Your probably best underwater connection is to mainland China. Quite a distance, not to mention great firewall, that is, possibly, reviewing almost every packet of data coming from Taiwan for censorship reasons. That takes some precious miliseconds too. You don't experience that problem playing on dedicated severs, as they are likely whitelisted on firewall. In warframe though, you connect p2p to a private house od another player - not likely to be whitelisted.

Combined you have said issues. But do you really think that majority od warframe playerbase experiences the same? No, we don't.

 

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1dxet4.jpg

Nope I am never connecting to China in wf, they are using a totally different build of the game. Japan, Korea, Hong kong? NO PROBLEM (sometimes, unless the guy is downloading in the background) if I am connecting to Vietnam, the Philippines, Thailand, India etc, these countries have very poor internet.. I can't even blame people for having bad internet, it's not their fault.. Fact still remains P2P is a crappy system and causes issues.

Take a look at this thread you're posting in, I'm not the only one having issues. take a look at these 13000 threads of people complaining about host migration https://www.google.com/search?q=host+migration+warframe+site:forums.warframe.com&rlz=1C1GCEU_enTW820TW820&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt8ZmhkdPfAhUD6bwKHSeRBeYQrQIoBDACegQIBBAM&biw=932&bih=560 

18000 posts about lag https://www.google.com/search?q=lag+warframe+site:forums.warframe.com&rlz=1C1GCEU_enTW820TW820&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjfyKW3kdPfAhUCbrwKHe2cBtcQrQIoBDALegQICBAM&biw=932&bih=560

I could go on

Edited by _Dan
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No dedicated servers for pve. They do have em for pvp, and these are player hosted. 

Personally an "always be host" is much more feasible. With that option, however you will NEVER matched with other players with the hosting option on.

That said, de can now match non hosts to dedicated hosts for latency. Will it require more coding? Probably, but i think it's worth it. 

There is a "soft" way to force hosting in pubs, but it only works on on non open maps. Start matchmaking and cancel. Or enter the mission and abort. The next time you enter matchmaking will usually be you hosting.

Oh, and there are chinese players using vpns to access global so it is possible to connect there.

Edited by UncaIroh
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3 hours ago, _Dan said:

Yeah of course, people who complain about this must be at fault !!. Here is my connection:

7fqFJrh.jpg

I also live a country ranked the 3rd fastest in the world for internet: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3549890 Literally every online game i play, from BF5, rainbow six siege etc, have no issues at all. Warframe is the only game that has a plethora of issues all of which are related to the AWFUL p2p system and bad hosts. 

I love this game, the whole reason i made this post is because this is the only thing that is ruining it for me, it is becoming unbearable, not just the fact i've lost hours of my free time, but the regular gameplay is just less enjoyable with the warping too. I'm not a particularly fussy gamer and I just don't feel like playing because of these very issues. And I'm not the only one.

Ping = 0... Did you just ping that packet to yourself? Even if you ping to the computer next to you it should say <1ms not completely 0 (But I never saw ping = 0 even if I did ping to 127.0.0.1...)

Also, your ping mean nothing when the host have crappy connection. You do know how internet works right? Your internet mean nothing when the packets you're requesting not delivered to you. Either by the Server or the Host. In the end, this thread is just reverse back to 'I have great connecting but why I have lag and high ping!!'... I also have great connection but when I played game to the far away server or even in the next region I do feel the lag and my internet can do nothing about it...

Edited by NocheLuz
Some hugh typo lol...
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