The Brokenness of Redeemer Prime and the Current Melee in General

[(PSN)iPoisonedFlint]

Why nerf a weapon 6weeks from now no one will ever use, its only popular now because it just primed 

[ant99999]

В 02.01.2019 в 03:01, ant99999 сказал:

If for some reason after reading this you have an impression that I want Redeemer P nerfed, YOU ARE WRONG

2 часа назад, (PS4)damagerate1 сказал:

Why nerf a weapon

God dammit. Where do I get new hope in humanity? Mine is broken.

[Teridax68]

On 2019-01-02 at 8:19 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Look man, you’re confusing what you think your saying vs what the rest of are reading you say. You’re arguing...well whatever you’re arguing, but all we’re seeing you say is “Nerf redeemer Prime”.

No, all you are seeing the OP say is "Nerf redeemer Prime". As is shown by most of the posts on this thread, including the OP repeatedly telling you that they're not asking to nerf Redeemer Prime, the actual subject of discussion here is the broken and incomprehensible mechanics governing damage multipliers that affect a range of weapons, not just Redeemer Prime. If you are incapable of listening to other people, or even attempting to understand what they're trying to say, you have no business participating in discussion, let alone trolling threads by starting pointless fights.

On-topic, I fully agree that damage multipliers in Warframe have some serious issues, particularly with the way stealth multipliers are applied. It's completely counter-intuitive for stealth multipliers to apply when enemies are, say, blinded or knocked down in the middle of heated combat, even if it would be nice to have this catch-all multiplier for when enemies are hard-CCed. What makes matters even worse is that these rules don't even apply consistently to all enemies, as noted by the OP testing the Redeemer Prime on the Nightwatch Bailiff and a Raptor (and, just FYI, @(XB1)GearsMatrix301, the OP is advocating for the Redeemer Prime to deal more damage to these opponents, by consistently applying the same damage multiplier). The fact that crit, a mechanic that is typically used to imply shooting an enemy in their weak spots or while they're exposed, also has absolutely no relation to stealth multipliers, I think is also completely incongruous, and one of those instances where two parts of Warframe's design are seemingly unaware of each other's existence.

In general, Warframe's underlying combat systems I think need an overhaul, because there are a whole bunch of antiquated and unintuitive systems at play that produce weird edge cases, don't convey their gameplay properly, and simply don't have a place in a real-time shooter game, as opposed to the pen-and-paper RPGs they're pulled from. Crit, for example, has strictly no reason to be based on random chance, and I feel would be much better off as a guaranteed damage multiplier when hitting enemies when/where they're weak, i.e. by damaging enemies that are unalerted or hard-CCed, or simply shooting them in weak spots like the head. In this particular case, it could make perfect sense for the Redeemer Prime to stagger or knock down targets with its shot (including flying enemies), and then be able to land a guaranteed critical hit upon the visibly stunned enemy for massive follow-up damage (or simply deal that massive damage right away if the target's unalerted). In all cases, the Redeemer Prime should be a strong weapon, but one that would run on consistent and intuitive rules, as should be the case for every other weapon in the game.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Teridax68

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

No, all you are seeing the OP say is "Nerf redeemer Prime". As is shown by most of the posts on this thread, including the OP repeatedly telling you that they're not asking to nerf Redeemer Prime, the actual subject of discussion here is the broken and incomprehensible mechanics governing damage multipliers that affect a range of weapons, not just Redeemer Prime. If you are incapable of listening to other people, or even attempting to understand what they're trying to say, you have no business participating in discussion, let alone trolling threads with by starting pointless fights.

On-topic, I fully agree that damage multipliers in Warframe have some serious issues, particularly with the way stealth multipliers are applied. It's completely counter-intuitive for stealth multipliers to apply when enemies are, say, blinded or knocked down in the middle of heated combat, even if it would be nice to have this catch-all multiplier for when enemies are hard-CCed. What makes matters even worse is that these rules don't even apply consistently to all enemies, as noted by the OP testing the Redeemer Prime on the Nightwatch Bailiff and a Raptor (and, just FYI, @(XB1)GearsMatrix301, the OP is advocating for the Redeemer Prime to deal more damage to these opponents, by consistently applying the same damage multiplier). The fact that crit, a mechanic that is typically used to imply shooting an enemy in their weak spots or while they're exposed, also has absolutely no relation to stealth multipliers, I think is also completely incongruous, and one of those instances where two parts of Warframe's design are seemingly unaware of each other's existence.

In general, Warframe's underlying combat systems I think need an overhaul, because there are a whole bunch of antiquated and unintuitive systems at play that produce weird edge cases, don't convey their gameplay properly, and simply don't have a place in a real-time shooter game, as opposed to the pen-and-paper RPGs they're pulled from. Crit, for example, has strictly no reason to be based on random chance, and I feel would be much better off as a guaranteed damage multiplier when hitting enemies when/where they're weak, i.e. by damaging enemies that are unalerted or hard-CCed, or simply shooting them in weak spots like the head. In this particular case, it could make perfect sense for the Redeemer Prime to stagger or knock down targets with its shot (including flying enemies), and then be able to land a guaranteed critical hit upon the visibly stunned enemy for massive follow-up damage (or simply deal that massive damage right away if the target's unalerted). In all cases, the Redeemer Prime should be a strong weapon, but one that would run on consistent and intuitive rules, as should be the case for every other weapon in the game.

Is this topic still going?

[Teridax68]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Is this topic still going?

Considering how the last reply before mine was posted less than 24 hours ago, I'd say yes, this thread is still very much alive. Are you still trolling?

[Peter]

On 2019-01-03 at 7:27 AM, ant99999 said:

Of course you can't. Imagine how OP it would be. We have Saryn for this purpose.

Although you can send usual Mesa/Banshee/Nova team for Index straight to the Void and do it solo using this gun.

And a fun fact: single target weapons tend to have more damage than AoE.

[ant99999]

@Teridax68 Couldn't possibly say this better, thank you.

Btw the funny thing is that mechanics not based on random chances but rather on damaging weak spots and weakening the enemy exists in the game right now. In the Conclave. But outside Conclave we still have the old system which I agree is in fact outdated.

While most of people I see in Conclave Feedback are eager to spread PvE mechanics on PvP, it would actually benefit the game more if we do the opposite (with the exception of mods which will still need to be overhauled).

1 час назад, Peter сказал:

And a fun fact: single target weapons tend to have more damage than AoE.

Why do you keep writing obvious things? I start suspecting you are another one of those who didn't read my original post.

[(XBOX)Xanatoz9310]

It’s single target and the gram is just as good if not better. Also take Into a 2+ hour mot and see how weak it is. It has no mobility like a primary primary, you can’t jump and shoot and can’t clear a room like a normal melee. 

 

 

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Something is being ignore or bypass in the calculations. Is it melee in general or is it damage calculation? Can anyone test this out with other weapons with the same setup?

[ant99999]

11 часов назад, (XB1)Xanatoz9310 сказал:

It’s single target and the gram is just as good if not better. Also take Into a 2+ hour mot and see how weak it is. It has no mobility like a primary primary, you can’t jump and shoot and can’t clear a room like a normal melee. 

So you spent some time finding this post and answering it although it was several days dead, but it was over your patience to read it carefully. Hmm, I see.

My point was not to claim this weapon to be overpowered, though it is in fact overpowered (I just remind you that the definition of overpowered is not 'capable of doing 2 hour Mot solo without frame powers'), but that it greatly indicates how flawed melee is (i.e. broken).

2 часа назад, (PS4)jaggerwanderer сказал:

Something is being ignore or bypass in the calculations. Is it melee in general or is it damage calculation? Can anyone test this out with other weapons with the same setup?

Nothing is being ignored in terms of health types and armor values (however the common sence seems to be). This weapon works on the same principles of every other melee, but it is a shotgun (capable of 100% status) and that's what breaks it. Other melees don't have multishot and firearms with similar stats (like Tigris P) don't have stealth multiplier, which make this weapon in many ways stronger than both of them for no actual reason.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

So what about glaive combo? The firearm can proc the status of blast and radiation which should leave the stealth for glaive to finish up. You either found a very interesting bug here or a new meta.

Edited January 9, 2019 by (PS4)jaggerwanderer

[ant99999]

24 минуты назад, (PS4)jaggerwanderer сказал:

So what about glaive combo? The firearm can proc the status of blast and radiation which should leave the stealth for glaive to finish up. You either found a very interesting bug here or a new meta.

Yeah, there is one and known (at least for me) for a couple of years (I like to sometimes use Orvius plus Tysis combo for nuking some bombard crowds), though it is nearly not as effective as it takes a lot more time to kill an enemy and is harder to perform. And even more, what stops you from doing the same for this gun? Using another status weapon (and I've mentioned it in original post) in tandem with Redeemer P multiplies its damage output even further.

Oh, and keep in mind that my ultimate goal is to make my own little contribution to not let this become a meta. In general to not let anything become a meta.

Edited January 9, 2019 by ant99999