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Self damage and why we DON’T enjoy it.


(XBOX)XGN DrFeelGood
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   Almost 2 years ago Warframe had a strong arcade design to it along with the go to characters for “X” purposes. We enjoyed that as much as fun glitches in other games, like using explosives in Battlefield to go flying across the map, using deployment shields in Halo 3 to using non energy weapons, and do a series of steps in games to bring out Easter eggs and funny dialogues. Over time we went from having ‘Swiss army knifes’ to ‘multi wrenches’ , ‘multi-tip screw drivers’, and a double-shot of legalism to what we can do to the game.

 

   To be in context this goes into the area of Explosives in the primaries and secondaries. While we have the band-aid mod from Arbitration the self damage can be added into the explosives again. Yes, we did have a non-self damage Tonkor a long time ago; but with 2019 we can have the “fun factor” again. A small 15% self damage cap at max for each explosive would not be out of balanced for Primaries and Secondaries before self damage reduction from armor and abilities. The push and pull on this is out of hand since one crowd wants this game to be “more realistic” while the other crowd “just want to have fun”. If we can bring the self damage down to the minimal then we can get other areas on the game on track.

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In my opinion, self damage, mainly on explosive weapons is here to prevent abusive use of AoE and force player to be careful when using them. Of course, a lot of warframe powers and other AoE weapons such as Ignis don't suffer from self damage, but I personnaly like the idea of strong AoE weapons with self damages as a way to balance them.
I play Ogris and Exodia Contagion a lot and really enjoy the fact I need to be careful to not kill myself, and it make these weapons more unique as lot of players dont use use them because of self damages.

However, I agree about the Arbritration being bad. Currently, most of explosive weapons still kill because -90% self damage is not enough to prevent oneshot. A mod slot and -15% damages is clearly too much for the current changes the mod provide, without considering the mod is only usable on primary.
 

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6 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Exodia Contagion

Don't trigger me... selfdamage from ANY melee move is beyond stupid, imo.

 

EDIT:

Also, i completely disagreed with the existencec of selfdamage. But selfincapacition is fine. Like;

  • Being too close to the Ogris explosion = Knockdown.
  • Too close to the Lenz, = coldproc from first AoE, then knockdown on the second one.
  • Be close to the explosion of the Talons or Castanas = Stagger
  • And so on, and so forth

That way, there is some penalty, but the lethality is more indirect. And you can mod to prevent it, but via NORMAL mods (Handspring etc), not an arbitrary bandaid mod like Cautious Shot.

Edited by Azamagon
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13 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Don't trigger me... selfdamage from ANY melee move is beyond stupid, imo.

 

EDIT:

Also, i completely disagreed with the existencec of selfdamage. But selfincapacition is fine. Like;

  • Being too close to the Ogris explosion = Knockdown.
  • Too close to the Lenz, = coldproc from first AoE, then knockdown on the second one.
  • Be close to the explosion of the Talons or Castanas = Stagger
  • And so on, and so forth

That way, there is some penalty, but the lethality is more indirect. And you can mod to prevent it, but via NORMAL mods (Handspring etc), not an arbitrary bandaid mod like Cautious Shot.

Also a great option.

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On 2019-01-03 at 2:01 AM, Azamagon said:

Don't trigger me... selfdamage from ANY melee move is beyond stupid, imo.

 

EDIT:

Also, i completely disagreed with the existencec of selfdamage. But selfincapacition is fine. Like;

  • Being too close to the Ogris explosion = Knockdown.
  • Too close to the Lenz, = coldproc from first AoE, then knockdown on the second one.
  • Be close to the explosion of the Talons or Castanas = Stagger
  • And so on, and so forth

That way, there is some penalty, but the lethality is more indirect. And you can mod to prevent it, but via NORMAL mods (Handspring etc), not an arbitrary bandaid mod like Cautious Shot.

A simple and effective way to punish for mistakes, thought knowing warframe i vouch for the complete removal of SD.

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My issues with self-damage:

  • Its mode of punishment is arbitrary and frequently buggy: The few times I've used explosive weapons, I sometimes died because I messed up, and shot too close to myself, but the majority of the time, I got downed for some completely counter-intuitive reason: my Lenz shot detonated instantly upon hitting a breakable object (because that's apparently a thing), or an ally jumped right in front of my Zarr, not only blocking my shot (why don't we automatically punch through our allies?), but also causing the shot to explode and kill me. If the intent is to punish players, then right now self-damage is generating severe problems by punishing players for all the wrong reasons.
  • It does not make launchers any more balanced: A common argument I've seen with self-damage is that it's some special balancing measure for explosive weapons, presumably because the latter can deal high damage in an area, with good ammo economy. In practice, this is nonsense: launchers at this point are one of the worst class of weapons in the game, and still would be even without self-damage. Older launchers like the Ogris or Penta don't hold a candle to the weapons we use now, many of which also have tremendous DPS, great AoE and good ammo economy, and even with buffs, the Tonkor is still far from being the best weapon around. There is, effectively, strictly no need to add self-damage to a class of weapons that already has plenty of drawbacks already (they're slow and unwieldy to use).
  • Self-damage is so notoriously anti-fun, and DE is so clearly aware of it, that they've started to design explosive weapons that AVOID self-damage: Recently, we've seen a shift in the design of explosive weapons, where many of them are given means of avoiding self-damage: the Zarr was given an alternate, non-self-damaging fire mode, the Lenz was given a significant delay before its explosion, and weapons like the Corinth and now the Tonkor are designed specifically so that their shots explode only outside of their self-damage radius. All of this I think strongly suggests that DE themselves are aware that self-damage is unpopular and often enough for players to avoid using explosive weapons entirely, yet instead of addressing it directly, they've been resorting to roundabout measures and band-aids.

TL;DR: self-damage is notoriously unfun, inconsistent, and a poor fit for a game like Warframe, sticks out like a sore thumb next to every other weapon mechanic, and fails at its one job of balancing explosive weapons. There is strictly no reason to keep it, and at this point it would be both far simpler and more effective to remove it altogether, rather than bend over backwards to find some new band-aid measure each time an explosive weapon is released or redesigned. Explosive weapons should be balanced around being slow, deliberate and unwieldy, something we currently see already with weapons like the Tonkor or Lenz. So long as those rules are respected, there should be no need for self-damage to balance that weapon class, and in fact it would be a good opportunity to provide major buffs to older launchers like the Ogris, which are currently excellent for committing in-game suicide, but crap at actually damaging enemies.

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After seeing how many players are "responsible" with stuff like the Staticor and the Simulor, I become more in favor of self-damage every day. If it saves my eyeballs, it's a small price to pay.

I agree it's a terrible mechanic in Warframe(due to the asymmetrical way damage scales between players and enemies). I always thought it should be percentage of health based or something. The all-or-nothing approach is sadistic.

Edited by ArcKnight9202
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On 2019-01-02 at 10:56 PM, lukinu_u said:

In my opinion, self damage, mainly on explosive weapons is here to prevent abusive use of AoE and force player to be careful when using them. Of course, a lot of warframe powers and other AoE weapons such as Ignis don't suffer from self damage, but I personnaly like the idea of strong AoE weapons with self damages as a way to balance them.
I play Ogris and Exodia Contagion a lot and really enjoy the fact I need to be careful to not kill myself, and it make these weapons more unique as lot of players dont use use them because of self damages.

However, I agree about the Arbritration being bad. Currently, most of explosive weapons still kill because -90% self damage is not enough to prevent oneshot. A mod slot and -15% damages is clearly too much for the current changes the mod provide, without considering the mod is only usable on primary.
 

I will never take the self-damage seriously, it does not make sense this type of mechanic when we have several melees beating more than 10 meters with infinite damage without stopping.

And even if we do not have self-damage, an Ogris will never kill more than a Warframe nuker or melee, arca plasmor, catchmoon, etc...

Edited by Peter
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