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Peter

Why is Ogris so bad?

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Posted (edited)

From what I understood Ogris would be the Grineer Lenz but with SC instead of CC, and failed miserably, and wow, the Nightwatch Napalm fits the Warframe "balance" style, why you ask me?

Lets see:

"Nightwatch Napalm is an Ogris-exclusive mod that, upon striking an enemy or object, will form small pockets of fire within a sphere around the impact area"

Now, i'll explain better:

You can't put elemental mods on it, you need to accept the fire damage that by the way is a shame in this gamehello Ember

You can't damage bubbles and nullifiers, instead will bounce because nothing can work as intended here.

You can't, you can't and you can't... this is the mod.

 

In other hands, Lenz don't need a "special garbage mod" to have 100% chance to proc cold (the best crowd control) in 10m radius and you have 50% CC, i'm not telling to nerf Lenz, please, we need some weapon to use on this game, but just compare how garbage is Ogris actually.

 

What  about letting Nightwatch Napalm work like anything else in this game? how about give some good thing to Ogris? we have tons of broken weapons like Krypath, Arca Plasmor, Catchmoon and tons of AoE spammers where we don't have the S#&$ty self-damage, so why Nightwatch Napalm can't do your job? we have the garbage self damage working pretty fine with Ogris, called the high risk, how about the high reward?

 

And about self-damage, it's totally disproportionate, you have several weapons with damage power in the upper area that do not have that, logically the launchers should be really devastating, but they only serve to kill you when an ally plays in front of you .

 

And i'm sorry if i'm feeling a bit salty, you do not know how bad it is to die because an ally jumped in front of you and exploded the projectile killing you with a weapon that throws confetti at enemies.

Edited by Peter
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Posted (edited)

Ogris just needs crit in order to be good. LIKE ANY SEMI WEAPON!!! BECAUSE STATUS DOESN'T WORK WELL ON SEMI WEAPONS, DE! DE!

Give Semi weapons good crit stats because they can't strip armor like auto weapons and shotguns. CRIT PLEASE. I'd love for Ogris to have good cric chance, but its crit is so bad that even a riven with 300% CC won't help it.

Ogris is a good weapon, when not used against armor. Just skip using Napalm altogether and go for more damage.

Edited by Acersecomic
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4 minutes ago, Acersecomic said:

Ogris just needs crit in order to be good. LIKE ANY SEMI WEAPON!!! BECAUSE STATUS DOESN'T WORK WELL ON SEMI WEAPONS, DE! DE!

Give Semi weapons good crit stats because they can't strip armor like auto weapons and shotguns. CRIT PLEASE. I'd love for Ogris to have good cric chance, but its crit is so bad that even a riven with 300% CC won't help it.

Ogris is a good weapon, when not used against armor. Just skip using Napalm altogether and go for more damage.

That's why i think the solution is make napalm modable as ANY THING IN THIS GAME, napalm with corrosive proc will be interesting.

And about your idea we have Lenz already with 50%CC and secura penta with both CC and SC, make Ogris crit is redundant.

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3 hours ago, Acersecomic said:

Ogris just needs crit in order to be good.

NO. Rocket launchers are meant to be brute force weapons. Crit weapons are meant to be precision weapons that exploit weaknesses in protection.

What Ogris really needs is 1. the ability to achieve a target lock, 2. for Blast to be a bit better at doing damage to enemies, and 3. for the rockets themselves to only detonate on contact after traveling a minimum distance (say 5m). This latter bit would make it so that accidentally shooting the floor (or another player getting in your way) doesn't kill you.

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Posted (edited)

Except Ogris isn't "so bad". It isn't incredible and amasing, but it certainly isn't a terrible weapon.

Edit: Ironically enough, Ogris actually performs best when not used against Grineer. Slap some Radiation + Toxin on it and you have a fantastic Corpus blasting machine. Corrosive + Blast will turn it into a Infested shredding monster as well.

When you remove the armour factor the Grineer have, the weapon shines much brighter and I have a hard time seeing this as a bad thing, where some weapons inherently function better when used against one or two of the factions and not just all of them.

Edited by (XB1)RPColten
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23 minutes ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Except Ogris isn't "so bad". It isn't incredible and amasing, but it certainly isn't a terrible weapon.

Edit: Ironically enough, Ogris actually performs best when not used against Grineer. Slap some Radiation + Toxin on it and you have a fantastic Corpus blasting machine. Corrosive + Blast will turn it into a Infested shredding monster as well.

When you remove the armour factor the Grineer have, the weapon shines much brighter and I have a hard time seeing this as a bad thing, where some weapons inherently function better when used against one or two of the factions and not just all of them.

But... everything is good vs corpus xD

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2 minutes ago, Peter said:

But... everything is good vs corpus xD

Right, and yet somehow Ogris isn't allowed to be good or usable or competent?

Yes the weapon has some flaws like you've listed, but those flaws are not significant enough to move the weapon down to a terrible level.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Right, and yet somehow Ogris isn't allowed to be good or usable or competent?

Yes the weapon has some flaws like you've listed, but those flaws are not significant enough to move the weapon down to a terrible level.

I think we're playing different games, I've tested all the AoE weapons in the game and they're all good, also tested with godly rivens, but now i come to Ogris and wow, the rocket turns into a tennis ball against high level mobs, nullifiers are your worst nightmare because in this game a rocket can bounce in a magnetic field and if you are playing arbitration you are required to play alone because otherwise someone jumps in front of you and you die, and the mod that I imagined fixing the problem is a joke.

And yet I like Ogris more than any other just because it's a rocket launcher, I just wanted Napalm to be useful.

Edited by Peter
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2 hours ago, (XB1)RPColten said:

Edit: Ironically enough, Ogris actually performs best when not used against Grineer.

Most faction weapons aren't good against their own faction. Grineer weapons typically use impact which is good against shields. Corpus use Puncture which is good against armor.

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Huh, seems pretty great with Nightwatch Napalm and plenty of Gas Procs. Just kinda melts and obliterates Corpus and Infestation, and provides a handy, energy-free source of persistent CC besides. Its large blast radius also means multiple overlapping Gas procs which pushes a lot more damage when you use it on clustered enemies. It's kinda bad against the Grineer, but that's no different than the Lenz, as the Grineer are the only faction designed from the outset to be highly resistant to area-of-effect weapons.

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Putting aside the particularities of crit and status, older weapons like the Ogris just need damage increases to be on par with modern weapons. Aside from that, armor tends to make most forms of damage feel terrible, and that needs to be fixed as well.

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Ogris one shots max rank bountys in the plains of eidolon.. yes it could use a damage buff but its hardly "so bad"

 

fun tip.. try the napalm augment with Garudas 4... the Napalm can proc slashes that way.

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I am not saying the Ogris is the best launcher in game but your argument is some in coherent and flawed. The Ogris can get 100% chance with all 4 status/element mods. While it will not be seen as a great corrosive proc-ing beast, it can garuntee through Blast procs that enemies will have to get back up ever other second or so. Compound that with Nightwatch Napalm that forces enemies to panic thanks to heat proc and you have weapon that can lock down a 15 meter area with blast procs and heat procs to prevent enemy attacks until its large base damage kills them. Yeah, it sucks against armor targets. But so does Lenz. With out Hunter Munitions, Lenz is terrible against armor, too. If you want Nightwatch Napalm to effect Nullifiers, aim at the feet. The flames will damage Nullies inside their bubble. 

The point is the Ogris isn't a bad weapon. There are better launchers for sure, but not every launcher is going to be on par with each other. Secura Penta, Lenz, and Zarr being great primary weapon launchers doesn't make the Ogris bad. 

You know what, actually. Looking at the Mastery Rank requirements for Lenz and Zarr, the Ogris seems kind of high for what it does. Ogris is MR9 while Zarr is MR7 and Lenz is MR8. While I still don't think Ogris is a bad weapon, I would say it should be put at MR6 or 7 or have it's base damage go from 700 total to something like 1100 total. While the status chance is great for suppressing the enemy, it's ammo isn't meant to suppress the enemy since it draws from the sniper pool. It should be killing the enemy and it's going to need a lot more base damage to muscle through high level armor with out help. If not then it should really get it's MR requirement lowered.

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Status weighted does have value. I've seem some serious Gas AoE from the weapon. Crit based AoE has always felt weird to me seems like the weapons should simply do more base damage if it's not performing. Come to think of it.... How do we not have an Ogris Wrath yet? Ogris is ancient. I remember using it when the Void first came out.

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Am 3.1.2019 um 22:44 schrieb Peter:

we have the garbage self damage working pretty fine with Ogris, called the high risk, how about the high reward?

I agree with absolute everthing you sayed in your text, but most important is this marked  sentence ! I think the absolut same way, when there are so many heavy weighting flaws, there MUST be at least one outstanding strenght!

My idea is:
1st: + add a physical damage typ like "+300 Slash" and boom the semi-shooting-noncrit-based-weapon works! I mean it would not even be that abstract, that an explosive weapon can also cut the enemy, i mean think about the very real "frag grenade". 

2nd: a mod that works like the Nightwatch-Napalm but change the fire with corrosive. (i came to this conclusion myself but im not alone with that, i read that very often in Ogris threads)

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Imho, Napalm Nightwatch should apply DoTs that’s not only Heat damage but whatever your chosen elemental combo is. Restricting it to only Heat only decreases its stat proc value and since Ogris is a status-based, single damage rocket launcher its application to the game’s current type of playstyle makes it a very niche weapon to use.

Not only that, the reward in killing enemies with it over the risk of killing yourself is too large of a gap. The weapon needs a lot of love from outside sources to make it scale well to high-level content, and it’s only marginal at best.

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It's only good to use with Ember because her 2 debuff increases the napalm damage significantly, otherwise, I don't recommend it on anything except Infested.

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On 2019-01-04 at 9:04 AM, Acersecomic said:

Ogris just needs crit in order to be good. LIKE ANY SEMI WEAPON!!! BECAUSE STATUS DOESN'T WORK WELL ON SEMI WEAPONS, DE! DE!

 

No they don't, get the silly Cult of Crit out of your head and accept that there are plenty of weapons that do not need it to function. 

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How about a niche idea?

We know that the grineer somehow managed to combine orokin technology with their crude weaponary, so im gonna suggest a mod what could make the ogris and along with it a lot of weapons more useful.

 

Semi-auto weapon mod:

Orokin Fusion (gold rank 10 mod, D polarity)

Increase damage by the amount of power strenght you have.

Each shot consumes energy equal to what needs to be to cast yyour warframes first skill and casts it on the shots impact point.

Magazine size set to 4, firerate is set to 0.5 per second.

 

This mod would not only buff up the semi-auto weapons but would also gives us some new and interesting niche use for all semi-autos.

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

No they don't, get the silly Cult of Crit out of your head and accept that there are plenty of weapons that do not need it to function. 

Crits are a very good damage multiplier and some weapons do need it. Hell, do you know what Embolist does? It strips armor before it even gets the enemy unit to half health! And then it takes its time killing it.

Ogris badly suffers against armor because it lacks that crit multi.

Why do you think Condition Overload exist for melee weapons to increase their damage output? Because they don't need crits? Yeah, because they got Condition Overload for it instead of CC/CD.

Edited by Acersecomic

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On 2019-01-04 at 12:11 AM, AXCrusnik said:

Most faction weapons aren't good against their own faction. Grineer weapons typically use impact which is good against shields. Corpus use Puncture which is good against armor.

?????????????????????????????????

 

Zarr obliterates grineer, and it's a grineer launcher. Twin Grakatas obliterate grineer, prisma gorgon, ignis wraith, atterax, vaykor hek, atomos, nukor, prisma cleavers, dual krohkur, quartakk, stubba, PTwin Gremlins, Twin Kohmak, Twin Rogga, Jat Kusar, etc. etc.

How are you building these weapons??

 

On OP's point, I agree with everything. Ogris is badass, and doesn't deserve to be so actually bad.

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4 hours ago, sappinmahsentry said:

?????????????????????????????????

 

Zarr obliterates grineer, and it's a grineer launcher. Twin Grakatas obliterate grineer, prisma gorgon, ignis wraith, atterax, vaykor hek, atomos, nukor, prisma cleavers, dual krohkur, quartakk, stubba, PTwin Gremlins, Twin Kohmak, Twin Rogga, Jat Kusar, etc. etc.

How are you building these weapons??

 

On OP's point, I agree with everything. Ogris is badass, and doesn't deserve to be so actually bad.

Their base damage types make them slightly better against Corpus, and slightly worse against Grineer. That is a fact.

I should have said "work best against their opposed faction." In any case faction weapons are almost always built to fight their enemy.

Edited by AXCrusnik
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7 minutes ago, AXCrusnik said:

Their base damage types make them slightly better against Corpus, and slightly worse against Grineer. That is a fact.

I should have said "work best against their opposed faction." In any case faction weapons are almost always built to fight their enemy.

 

In technical aspects based on base damage alone? Sure, you get that. But in terms of effectiveness, it's a weapon by weapon basis rather than a faction by faction basis.

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6 minutes ago, sappinmahsentry said:

 

In technical aspects based on base damage alone? Sure, you get that. But in terms of effectiveness, it's a weapon by weapon basis rather than a faction by faction basis.

Which is why I say "most" not "all." Because of course there are exceptions to the rule. But a good rule of thumb is that Grineer weapons use Impact, good against shield, which corpus use. Corpus use puncture, good against armor, therefore good against grineer. Yeah pretty much nobody will be using solely IPS damage to fight but it's still going to make some difference in effectiveness.

Edited by AXCrusnik

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