[Fixed] Against Ragdolled Enemies: Abilities Used By Clients Work Inconsistently, Client Weapon Damage Only Works With Specific Weapons/damage Types

[litlit]

EDIT: The bug is fixed as of 10.3.0! Whether or not this thread made a difference, thank you for fixing the issue, DE!

 

It's fixed, there's no doubt about that. My group ran a few tests to confirm it, and all weapons we tried worked properly against ragdolled enemies. Multiple instances of damage against ragdolled enemies with Ignis and Embolist was fixed too, just as the patch notes say.

 

Note: ragdoll still appears to nullify enemy armor. Unsure if this is intentional. Sometimes it is inconsistent; I have noticed that occasionally armor is unaffected or maybe not completely nullified. This may have something to do with host/client or the way ragdoll is induced, but it's hard to say for certain without a combat log.

 

(old bug report post, spoilered for size)

Summary:

1) Host can damage ragdolled enemies with weapons and Warframe abilities normally

2) Clients can hit ragdolled enemies with weapons, but they will not take damage unless certain the Physics Impact damage type (and possibly Poison-type damage), AoE weapons (Ogris, Ignis, and Embolist), or the Flux Rifle are used.

3) Clients seem to damage enemies with Warframe abilities inconsistently; radial AoE abilities seem to work normally, while other types do not.

Details of the bug:

1) Host can damage ragdolled enemies with weapons and Warframe abilities normally.

2) Clients can shoot or melee ragdolled enemies, but they will not take damage unless the client is using a weapon that does Physics Impact damage or one of the 3 AoE (area of effect) weapons in the game -- the Ignis, Ogris, or Embolist.
2.1) Damage numbers are not shown, and enemy shield bar/HP bar does not decrease
2.2) Elemental effects are applied to the to ragdolled enemies, even though these enemies do not take damage
2.2.1) These effects are not merely visual; the freeze effect slows enemies down

2.3) The Poison damage type may also damage ragdolled enemies when used by a client, but the Mire and Torid have not been tested yet

2.4) The Flux Rifle damages ragdolled enemies when used as a client. This conclusion cannot be generalized to all Serrated Blade damage, as explained below in the "Test 7" section.

3) Warframe abilities used by clients work inconsistently.
3.1) When they work, they function normally
3.2) When they do not work, despite visually hitting enemy targets, these targets are completely unaffected
3.3) Radial AoE abilities such as Avalanche and Crush appear to work normally
3.4) Abilities with smaller AoEs, such as Ice Wave, work inconsistently
3.5) Targeted abilities like Freeze rarely work correctly


Alphabetical list of weapons that DO damage ragdolled enemies when used as a client (incomplete):

Acrid
Ak Boltos
Embolist

Flux Rifle
Ignis
Kestrel
Ogris
Twin Gremlins

(details described in the Testing section)

Alphabetical list of weapons that DO NOT damage ragdolled enemies when used as a client (incomplete):

Braton Vandal
Despair
Galatine
Lanka

(details described in the Testing section)

Alphabetical list of abilities that appear to work CORRECTLY against ragdolled enemies when used as a client (incomplete):

Antimatter Drop
Avalanche
Crush
Miasma
Molecular Prime

(details described in the Testing section)

Alphabetical list of abilities that appear to work INCONSISTENTLY against ragdolled enemies when used as a client (incomplete):

Freeze   - almost never works correctlyIce Wave - sometimes works correctlyPull	 - almost never works correctly

(details described in the Testing section)

Testing:

Test 1:
Ran this test myself. The Twin Gremlins, which deal physics impact damage, could damage ragdolled enemies when I used them as a client. Unsure if the other damage types (from mods such as No Return, Convulsion, etc) were effective; difficult to tell since there's no combat log and visual feedback is complete garbage. A member of my group, who was also a client, was using the Ak Boltos with the same results.

Test 2:
Below is a YouTube video of the bug with annotations, provided by R3leaZ in this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbUWxiF3cAI
(Link to video for those who can't see it embedded)

The weapon used in this case is the Braton Vandal. This video is evidence that Warframe abilities used by clients affect ragdolled enemies normally (based on R3leaZ's feedback here in this thread).

Test 3:
I ran a T3 defense to test with Mag's Pull. Embolist damages ragdolled enemies consistently.

Test 4:
R3leaZ tested the use of Frost's Freeze, Ice Wave, and Avalanche abilities as a client. This proves that Warframe abilities work inconsistently. Radial AoEs such as Avalanche seem to work correctly. Abilities with smaller AoEs work correctly much less often, with abilities such as Freeze, which is a very small single-target ability, almost never work correctly.

Test 5:
Ran a test of Mag and Nova's abilities when used as clients with a friend, then another with Saryn. Pull will damage ragdolled enemies, but will usually not move them again (unsure if this is intentional). Miasma, Crush, Antimatter Drop, and Molecular Prime appear to work normally. NOTE: will update with information on Shield Polarize, Bullet Attractor, Venom, Worm Hole, and Null Star later.

Test 6:
Ran a test for the Ignis, Ogris, Acrid, and Galatine. Acrid, Ogris and Ignis could hit ragdolled enemies consistently when used by a client. Tested all Galatine attacks: slide attack, jump attack, normal attack, execution/finishing attack, and charge attack. Galatine could not hit ragdolled enemies as a client.

 

The Acrid and Embolist both work consistently against ragdolled enemies when used as a client. Since the Acrid is not an AoE weapon, this is evidence that the Poison damage type can damage enemies normally when used as a client, even if the weapon is not an AoE weapon. The only other Poison-type weapons other than the Acrid and Embolist are the Mire and Torid. [edit: Tests for these weapons pending.]

 

Test 7:

Flux rifle confirmed working on ragdolled enemies when used as a client. Probably a result of its unique firing mechanics and not specifically because of its Serrated Blade damage type, because melee weapon charge attacks and the Lanka, which also do Serrated Blade damage, do not work in the same circumstances.

Additional info:

 

-Sentinels may not be attacking ragdolled enemies. (further details pending)

-Ragdolled enemies take damage abnormally, as I explain here in this thread (will integrate this information in this post or make a separate thread/support ticket later)

p.s. DE please implement a combat log, it would be so much easier to find and report bugs if we could ever tell exactly what's happening [edit] and also release all the game stats publicly. Why do I have to dig up some dataminer's chart on Reddit to get a decent explanation on game mechanics?

Edited October 11, 2013 by litlit

[ntyd1s]

Ah.. I noticed reduced damage on ragdolled enemies too even as host, they take noticeably reduced damage; probably only certain types of damage affect them during ragdoll state.

[litlit]

Bug is still here in 10.0.2. Further testing still pending

[litlit]

Bug persists still as of 10.0.6.

 

A friend was able to reliably damage ragdolled enemies by throwing the Kestrel, so it seems physics impact is the only way for clients to damage ragdolled enemies with weapons.

 

Unsure if client frame abilities are affected by this bug.

[-10no-Dark]

Confirming this one. Strun cannot damage (or does it very rarely) anything that is pulled by Mag, while Gremlins are having no problems killing ragdolls.

[litlit]

Bump. Issue persists still as of 10.1.0

Edited September 21, 2013 by litlit

[ntyd1s]

Kestrel is super-nerfed... a lot less physical impact T-T

[Preanette]

ragdolled enemies make fun of your wasted bullets, except the ignis of course as it's AOE.

[R3leaZ]

I have a video regarding the issue in my post. You can use it here too if you want to. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/111058-revert-wyrms-crowd-dispersion/

[litlit]

Thank you. I've put the video in the original post.

 

A question:

 

In your video, some of the ragdolled enemies were killed by Warframe abilities. Were these abilities that killed the enemies used by the host, or were they clients?

[R3leaZ]

Thank you. I've put the video in the original post.

 

A question:

 

In your video, some of the ragdolled enemies were killed by Warframe abilities. Were these abilities that killed the enemies used by the host, or were they clients?

 

This was all in one run and both the MPrime and Miasma affected the enemies so I'm pretty sure just like Physics Impact that they can hit ragdolled enemies.

Edited September 21, 2013 by R3leaZ

[litlit]

10.2.0 is here and this is still a problem. Ran a test with the Embolist, updated the OP.

 

It'd be great to hear from a dev on this, this is a pretty big issue that destroys the playability of Mag and Vauban.

[R3leaZ]

Yea, Im still having all the issues too... Sigh.

 

I'd have to be more specific with Warframe powers, large AoE abilities always hit the targets, obvious due to the AoE covering a large area. When I use abilities that have less AoE or no AoE at all I have chance to miss my targets. I used Frost's Freeze and Ice Wave to confirm this. Hits were inconsistent and with Freeze it was almost always a miss.

Edited September 28, 2013 by R3leaZ

[litlit]

Added this info to the OP. Question:

 

What do you mean by "miss"? Does the target gain the slow or freeze from Ice Wave/Freeze without taking damage, or does the ability simply not affect them at all?

[R3leaZ]

Added this info to the OP. Question:

 

What do you mean by "miss"? Does the target gain the slow or freeze from Ice Wave/Freeze without taking damage, or does the ability simply not affect them at all?

 

It doesn't affect them at all. It's like a completely miss eventhough I see it hit. I tested it with Freeze since that would make them a solid block of ice but it didnt affect them.

[litlit]

Thanks for the info. Updated the OP to include it, along with an additional test of Mag, Saryn, and Nova abilities.

[litlit]

Updated yet again. Tested the Ignis, Acrid, and Ogris.

 

Revised the OP based on the implications of recent tests. It appears that any AoE weapon can do damage to ragdolled targets when used as a client, so it definitely isn't only Physics Impact damage. The Poison damage type may also damage ragdolled enemies when used by a client, but both of the tested weapons, the Acrid and the Embolist, have unique or anomalous properties. The only other weapon that does Poison-type damage is the Mire, which I do not currently have. I will probably test it myself eventually, but it would be nice if someone else who has it could do it sooner.

[litlit]

Bump. I'm going to keep bumping this until a dev posts. As I said before, this bug ruins the playability of Mag and Vauban.

 

Flux rifle works on ragdolled enemies when used as a client; updated OP.

[General_Krull]

I wonder what happens when you shoot at the spot where the enemy originally was before he was ragdolled. Also I noticed the enemies sometimes clip in to environment when they are ragdolled. Dunno if it's related but just throwing it out there.

[CitizenV]

Updated yet again. Tested the Ignis, Acrid, and Ogris.

 

Revised the OP based on the implications of recent tests. It appears that any AoE weapon can do damage to ragdolled targets when used as a client, so it definitely isn't only Physics Impact damage. The Poison damage type may also damage ragdolled enemies when used by a client, but both of the tested weapons, the Acrid and the Embolist, have unique or anomalous properties. The only other weapon that does Poison-type damage is the Mire, which I do not currently have. I will probably test it myself eventually, but it would be nice if someone else who has it could do it sooner.

Not only do they do damage, they do ridiculously increased damage. With an Ignis or Embolist, you can burn through a high level armored target in a second, whereas normally, it may take several seconds.

 

This actually makes Mag (or any other ragdolling Frame) "OP". Just throw on Ignis/Embolist and you can kill anything.

 

Anyway, have you submitted a support ticket? I find you're more likely to get their attention if you submit one (even though they just give you a canned response). I usually just report less important bugs here, and submit tickets for the more important and urgent ones .

[Thelonious]

Yep, ragdoll is annoyingly broken, both in a good and a bad way.

 

+1 to OP for taking the time to gather all that data.

[litlit]

Not only do they do damage, they do ridiculously increased damage. With an Ignis or Embolist, you can burn through a high level armored target in a second, whereas normally, it may take several seconds.

 

This actually makes Mag (or any other ragdolling Frame) "OP". Just throw on Ignis/Embolist and you can kill anything.

 

Anyway, have you submitted a support ticket? I find you're more likely to get their attention if you submit one (even though they just give you a canned response). I usually just report less important bugs here, and submit tickets for the more important and urgent ones .

 

I don't know why I never thought of submitting a ticket. That's a good idea, thanks for the suggestion.

 

And yeah, I probably should have included all of the info I've gleaned about the way ragdolled enemies take damage, but I never got around to it because... effort, i guess.

 

Anyways I'll just post the info here, and work it into the OP or its own thread later:

 

1) Ragdolled enemies have 0 armor.

 

Unsure if this was intentional. In my opinion, this is a good thing, because it adds a level of depth to gameplay -- it encourages players to think tactically and find ways to nullify a target's defenses, which leads to interesting synergies between Warframes (such as Pull into Vortex, or World on Fire into Vortex, etc). My group confirmed this back before the host/client ragdoll bug occurred; we tested almost every weapon in the game along with all of the non-armor ignoring Warframe abilities.

 

2) Ragdolled enemies take a separate instance of damage for each body part hit by the Ignis and Embolist (possibly the Acrid damage over time effect, the Ogris, the Synapse, and the Flux Rifle as well, but further tests are required to confirm).

 

Since there is no combat log, it's difficult to be certain of this. However, the observations of myself and two members of my group provide evidence to support this.

 

-When using the Ignis or Embolist against targets who are not ragdolled, we see a certain amount of damage numbers appear over time and observe how quickly the targets' health and shield bars decrease

 

-Against ragdolled targets, both the amount of numbers and the rate at which health and shield bards decrease is several times greater

 

-The difference between hitting Infested Chargers that are not ragdolled versus Chargers that are is much greater than the difference observed in "normal" humanoid enemies such as Corpus Crewmen or Grineer Lancers/Elite Lancers.

 

That last point is the strongest evidence that each body part takes a separate instance of damage.

 

This is because Chargers have more body parts than any other enemy type. Corpus Crewmen, for example, have 10 body parts: head, torso, left upper arm, left lower arm, right upper arm, right lower arm, right upper leg, right lower leg, left upper leg, and left lower leg. Infested Chargers have 16: head, torso, left lower arm, left upper arm, left shoulder, right lower arm, right upper arm, right shoulder, right lower leg, right middle leg, right upper leg, left lower leg, left middle leg, left upper leg, torso two, and tail.

 

The theory is that Chargers take more damage because they have more body parts to be hit, causing the increase in the amount of damage numbers and the increased rate of health bar depletion.

 

Additional notes:

-Unsure if these ragdoll effects apply to Drones and Ospreys. They do not, in my observations, but I can't be certain

-As mentioned before, further tests on the Ogris, Flux Rifle, Acrid, and Synapse are pending

-When using the Ignis, I have noticed that sometimes ragdoll does not nullify armor. Unsure if this is really the case, and if it is, unsure what causes it

-When multiple parts of a target's body are taking damage simultaneously while they are ragdolled, it is uncertain whether or not armor is applied to all instances of damage. Unfortunately this is nearly impossible to test without a combat log

Edited September 30, 2013 by litlit

[Thelonious]

 -snip-

No, it is not a good thing. It does not add depth to gameplay.

It only trivializes the game to a gimmicky combination of - Ragdoll enemy, one-shot enemy - whatever the level of the enemy is. Especially with the number of abilities providing ragdoll in the current state of the game.

I've already seen players taking down T3 heavies in an instant with an low-ranked weapon thanks to that "feature".

And we have already seen players abusing that "feature" with AOE weapons in High-level Defense.

 

It should not happen.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Thelonious

[litlit]

I disagree.

 

That's all I'll say on the matter here, because this is a bug report thread. Post a thread in the feedback forum if you want to continue this discussion.

[-Mira-]

+1 for detailed tracking of a serious bug, and also

 

p.s. DE please implement a combat log, it would be so much easier to find and report bugs if we could ever tell exactly what's happening [edit] and also release all the game stats publicly. Why do I have to dig up some dataminer's chart on Reddit to get a decent explanation on game mechanics?

 

This CANNOT be reiterated enough. Every stat in the game is going to be datamined anyway, if DE would just release information openly it would mean the community would have more immediate, up-to-date, accurate, and trustworthy information. It would reduce the amount of misconceptions and misinformation spread around, and be a show of good faith from DE.