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-Sentient-

Is Loki in a not so good position rigth now?

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26 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I'd like to point this out as well. (seems to be all I'm doing here mostly)

This thread should be a cautionary tale that things change, and while Loki can and will still hold his own, the longer the game develops however the greater the chance that some of his abilities will start to show age and become pointless (why distract enemies with a decoy when most of your team can blow up a tile set with 1-2 buttons?). It is always best to think of ways to improve things before they are in the most dire need of it.

Also his passive is pretty much just above Wukong's because wall latching is pretty pointless most of the time outside of maybe hanging on the wall in spy missions to wait for a chance to slip past security. Of all mobility options in the game I've used wall latch so little I sometimes forget it exists.

Agree,new abilities need to be implemented,just like with Vauban.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Gawd mode. Plus No incessant crouching. 

Can you elaborate on this "gawd mode" to a clueless player like me? 

And I get what you are saying about the crouching, but I often don't have to bother with crouching on Octavia because its built right into bullet jumping, which I use naturally any time I move, so most times her invis refreshes without my conscious effort.

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Loki from beginning of Warframe that has maintained the same level of skill to carry players through any difficulty and received no direct changes for a reason, he is just that well made, if you suffer or have issues playing him it's only cause you're just bad at playing him.  Beyond invisibility he has nothing to crutch on like tank frames, he has no insane damage or CC like Equinox or Volt or special "synergys" like Saryn.  He is completely skill driven and because of this with the right player there is nothing that can't be done, though his decoy is weak it can be placed anywhere and draw aggro from anything, he has the longest invisibility duration with no gimmicks unlike Octavia and Ivara, he can switch with almost anything and unlike Limbo he can skip almost any challenge with minimal effort when used with his decoy or augments.  Though there are other ways to disarm enemies compared to Loki they are trash when considering his range and lack of gimmick to use it unlike Baruuk and he's also the only frame with amazing augs for all of his skills.  

 

He isn't the strongest or tankiest or even most interesting frame out there but that's the whole point of the frame, and chances are he'll still be one of the most viable frames years from now, frames that have suffered update after update are always DPS and gimmick frames simply because they become obsolete as changes to damage values and enemies are made more frequently than anything else.

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1 hour ago, IntheCoconut said:

Can you elaborate on this "gawd mode" to a clueless player like me? 

And I get what you are saying about the crouching, but I often don't have to bother with crouching on Octavia because its built right into bullet jumping, which I use naturally any time I move, so most times her invis refreshes without my conscious effort.

I actually described it. Use safeguard switch (aug) on your decoy. Your decoy is now invincible. Using savior decoy to save u from lethal damage... u are insured ur decoy will be alive to do so. 

Irradiating disarm is literally one of the best cc moves in the game... Disarms enemies and confuses them... Meaning they attk each other. Rolling guard will give u the essential seconds u need to refresh durations such as invisibility... Decoy... irradiating disarm... Safeguard switch... U literally wont die... Ever, and will literally control the battlefield/map. 

Basically... Gawd mode.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)IroncladBomber said:

I mean he isn't the God Frame anymore, but he is still Good. Just the Meta of the game is Map Nuking now. 

Explain what u consider to be a gawd?

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20 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

Loki is the best at what he does. there is a reason he doesn't get reworked every other week

He's very good to play with solo. What he is missing is a team ability that helps him kill. Radial Disarm is a CC, but it doesn't kill.

Add that with WF there's a 3 second delay in responses from the server to your machine, by the time you lose your invisibility the beasties are already killing you, too. I spent all morning doing Kappa spy missions, and how I knew my invisibility was up wasn't my timer ... it was how the beasties were already firing on me while still cloaked!!!!!!

3 seconds left on the alarms? Lost your objective, too. DE's networking NEEDS an upgrade!!!!

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Explain what u consider to be a gawd?

Well Until Recently (Pre Octavia), Loki could have very long Invisibility, Disarm enemies and make them Practically Useless. And Generally make any content in the game a Joke. The Meta has Shifted since then, and he is still Good. But The Meta again is now just Nuking the whole tileset. 

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If Loki is bad, then so is every single warframe in this game. Seriously, Loki is still one of the best Warframes, and the fact that you need 4 different Warframes just to do what Loki does a bit better is a proof of that. You can't play 4 different warframes at the same time. But you can play Loki and dominate the entire game. Can he be improved? Well, nothing is ever perfect, so, yeah. Is he bad? Hah, stop kidding yourselves. He's still a god among Warframes that has yet to be dethroned.

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14 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

If Loki is bad, then so is every single warframe in this game. Seriously, Loki is still one of the best Warframes, and the fact that you need 4 different Warframes just to do what Loki does a bit better is a proof of that. You can't play 4 different warframes at the same time. But you can play Loki and dominate the entire game. Can he be improved? Well, nothing is ever perfect, so, yeah. Is he bad? Hah, stop kidding yourselves. He's still a god among Warframes that has yet to be dethroned.

His #4 needs to be a nuke, with the tradeoff being it lessens his invisibility duration (because invisibility is built on duration; and radial disarm is built on distance).

Then Loki can bring something to groups that OTHERS in groups can SEE (as DPS as usual only judges on how many are killed, not that saving a bunch of tunnel visioned players trying to look good on the leaderboard, but forgot the air canisters on Survival!).

#2 is really the ONLY ability in solo mode Loki needs. But in groups, Decoy is destroyed in 5 seconds at higher levels (worthless to use); his trick ability #3 is single target and frankly a waste of energy (it's only situationally useful, like trying to get to extraction faster); and #4 if he's built for duration (i.e., Invisibility to survive) his effective CC isn't going to help much even on Defense missions ... not enough range.

Got to give up duration for something that's useful in groups.

Solo, Loki can do.

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so i dont have loki and there is reason

his kit is good but he has too boring spells YES thery are ussefull but usseles at the same time.

loki is preety usseles out of speed runs and spy missions in normal missions (i suppose from his skills in market) he just go invis and some time hit 4 to disarm enemy - that help temates yes BUT

its a loki you know what is loki ? a the god of cheaters - yes its a space game where u control an avatar ... his name does not need to refer exactly to loki god but if you look at his kit without prejudice

1 ok decoy yop thats loki thing

2 invis hmm ye its logical and work with 1

3 switch tp its a good idea for abillity bu it does nothing more that that yes i know you can switch in air and send down someone but its just 1 target

and 4 thats skill what is in my opinion not for this frame its not logical why loki need to disarm someone when he can just go and kill him in invis ? 

imagine this ability is for mag while she use it and grab all weapons of enemies in radius and move them above her position to create some thing loke exploding bal ...

he need some care .

I do not want to angry here some loki mains etc. hes not bad but hes not good

let me add some changes:

combine his 1 and 2 in one spell

when used he will go invis while invisible he can hold  to create decoy loke its work now

2 now you can add some new abillity that can return him to game some damage or cc abillity -  like he laughs and confuse enemies at his location and locations of decoys

3 is good bud add it some way to just teleport like hold button etc.

4 i have no idea his actual is usseful but it just does not get him

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12 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

His #4 needs to be a nuke, with the tradeoff being it lessens his invisibility duration (because invisibility is built on duration; and radial disarm is built on distance).

Then Loki can bring something to groups that OTHERS in groups can SEE (as DPS as usual only judges on how many are killed, not that saving a bunch of tunnel visioned players trying to look good on the leaderboard, but forgot the air canisters on Survival!).

#2 is really the ONLY ability in solo mode Loki needs. But in groups, Decoy is destroyed in 5 seconds at higher levels (worthless to use); his trick ability #3 is single target and frankly a waste of energy (it's only situationally useful, like trying to get to extraction faster); and #4 if he's built for duration (i.e., Invisibility to survive) his effective CC isn't going to help much even on Defense missions ... not enough range.

Got to give up duration for something that's useful in groups.

Solo, Loki can do.

Why should his 4 be a nuke? Just cause that's the meta? Please, meta is just the flavor of the week, it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Change a warframe today to be good for the meta today, and next week that warframe will need to be changed again. That's not a good warframe. Look at how many suffered from that. I remember Greedy Mag, I remember Nyx, I remember Ember... Where are they now but in the gutter thanks to the changes brought to them. However, Loki is so good that he transcends meta. All the meta changes throughout the years haven't affected him one bit. He's still sitting atop his golden throne, still one of the best Warframes, like he was since he was introduced, and that's simply because he's a really good and well designed warframe, not the flavor of the week. Just cause the groups can't see Loki doing well doesn't mean he isn't doing well.

And yeah, Decoy could use a change, but frankly, I'd rather have Decoy to a flavor of the week ability that will just weaken Loki in the long run.

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Just now, Gabbynaru said:

Why should his 4 be a nuke? Just cause that's the meta?

No. Because of the tradeoff.

Loki doesn't have any incentive to trade duration for range. So when they join groups their #4 ability is lackluster, as they come in as duration builds for #2.

That's not balance.

IF Lokie traded duration for a nuke (and become a glass cannon in the process), he has CHOICES now to consider.

Balance is chosing a style of play and balancing the consequences of that choice.

In GROUPS, the trade off is dying for kills (especially in public groups when folks want to just look good for the leaderboards and who don't revive or even bother to get air canisters even at 39%!!!).

Babysitting in groups isn't fun, ya know?

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1 hour ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

He's very good to play with solo. What he is missing is a team ability that helps him kill. Radial Disarm is a CC, but it doesn't kill.

Add that with WF there's a 3 second delay in responses from the server to your machine, by the time you lose your invisibility the beasties are already killing you, too. I spent all morning doing Kappa spy missions, and how I knew my invisibility was up wasn't my timer ... it was how the beasties were already firing on me while still cloaked!!!!!!

3 seconds left on the alarms? Lost your objective, too. DE's networking NEEDS an upgrade!!!!

Rolling guard fixes that window of vulnerability between visib and invisibility. Irradiating disarm can cause enemies to not only be disarmed... But also kill each other. Especially in corpus and infested missions... They kill each other, and dont attk allies. His safeguard switch can make allies invincible... Decoy can draw aggro away from allies... Hes a better team frame than most.

I have a build where he empowers his weapons allowing literal cc and dmg dealing mayhem. Loki is good, period.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)IroncladBomber said:

Well Until Recently (Pre Octavia), Loki could have very long Invisibility, Disarm enemies and make them Practically Useless. And Generally make any content in the game a Joke. The Meta has Shifted since then, and he is still Good. But The Meta again is now just Nuking the whole tileset. 

The meta doesn't decide whats good or isnt. The meta is about cheesing content. The meta is cancerous. Deciding a good frame from a not good frame using the meta as a reference is ignoramous.

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21 hours ago, clxrffdman said:

You cant bullet jump in prowl, only roll. If you bullet jump or sprint it breaks the invis

Yes you can bullet jump in Prowl.  That it only works as host has more to do with connection lagging the inputs than it being a bug at this point.  I say this because DE has known about it for a good long while now and haven't removed it. 

21 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

Rolling around is painfully slow compared to actually having your full set of parkour tools available.

I actually didn't know about the bullet jump thing, but if the wiki is correct, then invisible Ivaras can only bullet jump while on the ground with no WASD input... which, while it beats the hell out of rolling, sounds more like a bug than anything intentional. Also not exactly useful compared to, you know, actually having your full set of parkour tools available.
A person wearing ten Hobbled keys at once would outspeed an invisible Ivara any day of the week.

If you are that slow with Ivara then you are definitely doing something wrong.  Ivara doesn't lose her ability to aim glide, wall run, double jump, etc when in Prowl contrary to popular belief.  Just so you know, there are only two frames that move faster than a high PS Infiltrate Ivara on a wire.  Those are high PS Volt and high range Nova.  Just saying. 😄 

20 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

Name a damage dealing frame that outperforms Loki when it comes to utility 

Ivara.  A frame that is one of the highest single target damage dealing frames as well as having lots of utility with a hard CC to boot.  I might even include Oberon,Saryn, and Mag in that group.

12 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

yeah, no other frame can stay invisible that long while being essentially energy neutral and insanely fast.

Again, Ivara on Dashwire is insanely fast in Prowl while also being essentially "energy neutral".  Then there is also.....Octavia.   

 

Now I throw this argument back at your so called Loki fans.  If Loki is a great frame in the hands of someone that knows how to use him, then why does Ivara have to still be considered slow when played by an experienced user?  I say this not to bash Loki, but more so that you all stop trying to erroneously downgrade my chosen frame while trying to prove your points.  

I've never had a problem with Loki as a frame.  It's his fans that I usually have a problem with because of their "over-exaggerations". 

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52 minutes ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

Rolling guard fixes that window of vulnerability between visib and invisibility. Irradiating disarm can cause enemies to not only be disarmed... But also kill each other. Especially in corpus and infested missions... They kill each other, and dont attk allies. His safeguard switch can make allies invincible... Decoy can draw aggro away from allies... Hes a better team frame than most.

I have a build where he empowers his weapons allowing literal cc and dmg dealing mayhem. Loki is good, period.

That's with a specific mod. Not everyone has that specific mod. It's an Arb drop at that.

I'm not talking about speciality builts, I'm talking about base abilities of a frame and the build trade offs.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

They kill each other, and dont attk allies.

That sounds good on paper until you're in mission with a Rad Disarm Loki and there are enemies with AoE and ground pound AoE attacks that start hitting teammates.  I've been on the receiving end of that Cluster and the only thing that saved the whole party including the Loki from his own power was me using Sleep on the enemies so they would completely stop.  Dead is the best CC with Sleep being a close second.  

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What some people don't seem to remember is how you got to sacrifice lots of slots 

Example : you will use 3 mods for duration,   and 2

 For range, and obviously the important Efficiency and flow, so you got almost no slot for any augment or health mode

So those augments sacrifice a very important slot

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I think he's sorta fine except I'd tinker with decoy a bit. Make it like I remember people using him in conclave (probably changed as I haven't ranked that up since ages ago) where if you had a strong weapon equipped you could get shot by whatever they had equipped when casting it. Making decoy also be played as an actual turret might be something fun. I dunno.

 

Also looking at switch teleport it has its uses in solo but if they changed it I wouldn't complain. Just don't know what I would turn it into. It's not friendly when using it with randoms in public and just ends up being a trolling thing I personally rarely run into these days. Let's just say if they removed switch teleport from his kit I'd just shrug and hope he got something worthwhile to replace it.

 

My biggest issue with Loki is he's undercut by operators. Anyone with an operator can go invisible and revive someone now. While it is definitely useful, it makes me wish they would have done something to boost ash and loki because a lot of those perks have just been handed to EVERY frame. He might as well be able to have his weapons silenced when invisible without the augment mod considering he's got a trick every frame can do now 😕

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2 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

What some people don't seem to remember is how you got to sacrifice lots of slots 

Example : you will use 3 mods for duration,   and 2

 For range, and obviously the important Efficiency and flow, so you got almost no slot for any augment or health mode 

In all honesty, if you play an invisible frame correctly (meaning use common sense) then you won't really need health mods.  

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2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

In all honesty, if you play an invisible frame correctly (meaning use common sense) then you won't really need health mods.  

You still need them if you are in the middle of a firefight and get AoE damage, at least adaptation to negate STATUS GOD DAMN IT 

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9 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

You still need them if you are in the middle of a firefight and get AoE damage, at least adaptation to negate STATUS GOD DAMN IT 

What I meant is that if you know your frame can't take a hit, then going into crossfire or being near team mates that draw aggro is something that you might not want to do.  There is also the case where most invisible frames just don't get much boost from the percentages of the survival mods at the cost of the mod slot.  For example, in Loki's case just adding more duration would be a better use of that mod slot than something like Vitality or Primed Vigor.  Even with survival mods he's still going down in one shot, so why waste a mod slot on it.  This is pretty much the same for any of the more squishy frames.  

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5 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

What I meant is that if you know your frame can't take a hit, then going into crossfire or being near team mates that draw aggro is something that you might not want to do.  There is also the case where most invisible frames just don't get much boost from the percentages of the survival mods at the cost of the mod slot.  For example, in Loki's case just adding more duration would be a better use of that mod slot than something like Vitality or Primed Vigor.  Even with survival mods he's still going down in one shot, so why waste a mod slot on it.  This is pretty much the same for any of the more squishy frames.  

Then what's the point of disarm if you can't get close to them 

 

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14 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

Then what's the point of disarm if you can't get close to them

Hell if I know.  I play Ivara and don't have that problem. Sleep Arrow FTW.  Mwuhahahahahahaha

 

Edit:  Truthfully as long as you aren't using the augment for Disarm it shouldn't be a problem.  Enemies don't target invisible frames anyway as long as you aren't standing between it and a team mate it is trying to hit.  

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