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Is Loki in a not so good position rigth now?


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5 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

He's very good to play with solo. What he is missing is a team ability that helps him kill. Radial Disarm is a CC, but it doesn't kill.

Add that with WF there's a 3 second delay in responses from the server to your machine, by the time you lose your invisibility the beasties are already killing you, too. I spent all morning doing Kappa spy missions, and how I knew my invisibility was up wasn't my timer ... it was how the beasties were already firing on me while still cloaked!!!!!!

3 seconds left on the alarms? Lost your objective, too. DE's networking NEEDS an upgrade!!!!

Radial disarm does deal damage though not tons but it increases with ability strength couple that with guns which the "beasties" should be all out of and invis or not it doesn't matter cuz everything's dead and the 3second delay might be a bad connection or a delay due to distance though i doubt 3 seconds can lose you the objective unless you're already in a bad place which 3 seconds probably wouldn't help anyway

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4 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Because you're building a RANGE frame for radial disarm.

Most build Loki for duration for Invisibility to survive solo missions, though. Have no use for #1/#3/#4 buttons in solo missions. In groups #1 doesn't last but a few seconds/#3 is a gimmiick to race to extraction/#4 why even use it, I'm sneaking past the mobs!

So #4 needs another function to even use outside of groups.

I think you confused the numbers a bit

1 decoy

2 switch teleport

3 invisibility

4 radial disarm

And my build is actually heavy duration the only reason i have much range is due to my lack of duration mods to replace them with

Augur message ups duration by 28% and 40% of energy spent on abilities converts to shields augur reach ups range by something or other and another 40% energy on abilities to shields augur accord adds 180% shields and again another 40% energy on abilities to shields augur pact (a pistol mod) 60% extra damage and another 40% energy on abilities to shields im missing augur secrets and whatever the last one is loki also has gladiator resolve 180% more health and 15% additional crit chance per combo multiplier continuity 30% more duration and the rest is a mix of multistat duration and range mods cunning drift i think is one can't remember much about em though and i rarely use his 2 or 4 but his 1 is op considering all you need to do is keep em away from the decoy and his 3 is decent for sneaking around to get to life support or wherever you want

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20 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Because you're building a RANGE frame for radial disarm.

Most build Loki for duration for Invisibility to survive solo missions, though. Have no use for #1/#3/#4 buttons in solo missions. In groups #1 doesn't last but a few seconds/#3 is a gimmiick to race to extraction/#4 why even use it, I'm sneaking past the mobs!

So #4 needs another function to even use outside of groups.

You might not use him much solo but personally i love him on solo sitting at the side with my drakgoon killing everything before it gets close to my decoy only moving when i need life support/want the loot on the ground/am bored and leaving 

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Just checked wiki and yeah its 1 decoy 2 invis 3 switch tp 4 disarm my stupid brain gets confused too easily (though i would say his abilities are much easier to use on pc than on consoles if any reworking is required itd be to tweak the ui to take different buttons bound to the abilities like keyboard 1 2 3 4 but on a keyboard (or is that already a thing? I saw something about controller config but im assuming its presets)

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

tweak the ui to take different buttons bound to the abilities like keyboard 1 2 3 4 but on a keyboard (or is that already a thing? I saw something about controller config but im assuming its presets)

This is already a thing on PC with controllers. 

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We don't need every single warframe to be a "press 4 to kill the map". Loki has not aged because CC is not good, but because the game has been dumbed down as a result of power creep and lack of challenge, as most of the time people don't play missions to a point where that would matter to them. For those comparing Loki with Ivara and Octavia... Ivara and Octavia are broken OP and shouldn't be a comparison to anything but an example of what should be nerfed or at least not buffed, like the highest point a frame could go. We don't need more Ivaras and Octavias, if people want them, with those 2 is fine already.

 

What is it that Loki can't do that he would require a rework? Nothing. If you thought about something, there you go, something you need to figure out (and im not doing your homework). "But he's outclassed by..." if there is any frame that's not outclassed by anyone, it should be nerfed. "But he doesn't outclass anyone" false, he is top tier CC/Stealth. "I don't need CC, i want damage!" play other frame. "But i want to play Loki and deal damage!" You can... "Why im pressing 4 and enemies are not dying?" Weapons. Use them. "But..." i said Im not doing your homework.

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I think a lot of the issues with Loki and as mentioned in earlier posts with frames like Vauban and Nyx is that the meta has changed. The reason I feel a lot of these frames feel bad these days especially compared to a few years ago is because the tower and void missions aren't relevant in the meta. Loki, Vauban, and Nyx used to have a real place in insanely long tower survival missions because DPS frames fell off. Ember can't blow up level 120+ enemies in a second and having the utility Loki, Vauban, and Nyx brought was critical to not dying and staying in the mission for extended periods of time. The meta has changed, the mega late game is no longer staying alive in 1+ hour survivals against insane enemies and so frames like Ember and Saryn who can clear rooms with their DPS abilities are super relevant in the meta right now. I think the main reason DE is so hesitant to touch a frame like Loki (and Vauban and Nyx) is because they were so powerful for a really long time. There was rarely a t4 survival I ran without a Loki (as a Loki main I was usually the Loki but sometimes we grabbed random Lokis or a friend took over so I could play someone else) and Vauban turned 60 minute runs into 80 and 100 minute runs with his sheer CC. I think the concern DE would have is that they'd push these previously super potent frames over the edge especially when they were so dominant years ago. DPS is king now so these utility frames are feeling the pain when in the past you would have had to pay me to bring out Ember and Saryn to try and run a t4 for any significant period of time. 

That said there are some things I would like to see changed about Loki. The invis and disarm are pretty solid as they are, I have also found a lot of uses for Decoys over the years especially the times when I've accidentally queued for Mobile Defenses as Loki as the decoy can be pretty helpful for taking enemy fire. My issue comes with the three, not only is it useless most times (I don't really benefit much from switching places with enemies within eye sight) I find myself getting insanely disoriented using it. The augment while good isn't great for me because I get super disoriented but it also competes for mod slots in my super competitive build. I had to cut vitality a while back to fit in Augur Message for that sweet sweet duration so I certainly couldn't justify that augment if I couldn't even justify vitality.  I wouldn't mind seeing the three changing quite a bit since it's a button I've rarely pressed even when Loki was meta.

To the people talking about the invis getting power crept, I understand what you're saying. I wouldn't mind seeing the invis duration extended but the melee multiplier sets it apart for me personally. It's how I actually did damage years ago when all the enemies got really big. 

This is just my take on it though. 

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3 hours ago, (PS4)teacup775 said:

By the time you’ve shot that arrow, a simple sprinting frame or simply a void dash has already taken another player thru that room and beyond, with less button mashing.

You can use secondary fire on Artemis bow to shoot your selected arrow.

You can do that while airborne.

It doesn’t take very long to get proficient with the mechanics.

I also don’t believe it only works while you’re hosting. I used Ivara a lot when I was new and just farming the Teralyst.

I was able to bullet jump into the air during prowl and connect Artemis bows spread pretty reliably without breaking prowl.

I did that for about 30-35 shards. I can guarantee I wasn’t the host 100% of the time.

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10 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

No. Because of the tradeoff.

Loki doesn't have any incentive to trade duration for range. So when they join groups their #4 ability is lackluster, as they come in as duration builds for #2.

That's not balance.

IF Lokie traded duration for a nuke (and become a glass cannon in the process), he has CHOICES now to consider.

Balance is chosing a style of play and balancing the consequences of that choice.

In GROUPS, the trade off is dying for kills (especially in public groups when folks want to just look good for the leaderboards and who don't revive or even bother to get air canisters even at 39%!!!).

Babysitting in groups isn't fun, ya know?

You're acting like specializing in one thing and doing that thing really well is somehow a sin. It's not. Frames that can do multiple things are pretty bad at all of them. Loki does one thing, and he's really good with that one thing.

Plus, I dunno how you build you Loki, but I'm pretty sure most people can just sacrifice their speed mods for range mods if they want to, and not lose out on invisibility.

Oh, and, going full kamikaze in a group is plain stupid and doesn't help anyone. Don't "fix" Loki based on how incompetent the players playing him are. Cause he's definitely not the one in need of a fix.

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So I've pretty much read every post and noticed no one has even pointed out that any weapon that isn't silent breaks ivara stealth, this doesnt happen with with Loki so there's that.

Loki is just fine in the right hands in the right mission. 

Guess what ! 

So is Ivara, Ash and even Octavia!

Play the game how you want with what you want people. 

Complain about game bugs and broken stuff dont complain that some frames are better / worse than others.

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His swap can be used on operative defense and then be blocked by spectees or Atlas walls.  Then mass disarm..  If you choose a good hallway they just keep running in like zombies... 

It has great range and goes through walls 

Also a high range can help, swap with that slow drone in plains speeding missions up significantly especially during plague star. 

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10 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

When you're arguing that Loki is "fine" with a speciality mod, yes, I'm calling it for what it is -- a speciality build.

I was posting about FRAME ABILITIES and the choices of duration and range builds, and the tradeoffs of why the #4 isn't hot (it offers no incentives to trade duration for range that #4 requires).

Every build is a specialty build. Unless your considering a frames merit based in unmodded potential. In which case every single frame in the game falls short.

His 4 can quite literally disarm an entire map if modded for range, for good. No duration on the disarm .. once disarmed, they stay that way. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

Im kinda confused at what yer getting at i think you're saying why bother adding duration to use his 4? Answer: don't bother there's no incentive to have a duration disarm because as far as i can tell the disarm is permanent if you're making a disarm build id recommend range and strength and strong guns for keeping some distance otherwise use his other abilities more than his 4

He's referring to how building duration for max invis hurts the range, so it lessens disarm's effectiveness.

 

11 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Maybe, but can they do it in a room full of lasers or that nice huge canyon like bottomless cave area with all the lasers in Lua all without setting off alarms or getting damage.  😄  hehe

*laughs in limbo* 😛

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guys I do not understand why are u still talk about it.

his kit is not good the whole game has some things that are weird unbalanced etc. 

just a couple:

loki 1

that "mechanic" when u place decoy behind wall and AI still try to atack it 

its a bug no more , that spell is so usseles if we look at what to do 

why not get a decoy to this moment bonus hp mechanic like frost bubble and rhino skin ? just for that bug , if DE have finally improved AI and that bug will no more work that skill is totaly usseles

invis is stupid and its stupidly easy to complete spy missions and exterminate missions , can grineers cancel invis ? just nulifiers from corpus and when u and when they no longer have energy

volt unbreakable shield ? 

volt 4 and frost 4 i was on helene and he just stay at object and pres 4 all dead

some usseles spells that warframes are playable for 1 or 2 spells compensated by weapons

this game is unique for that movement good melee weapons etc. but if you look at some frames they have strong or super op some skills and usseles look at chroma hes so borig and i never pick him for his 2 and 3 i want a frame that is all super and balanced not just one absurdly strong spell

 

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2 hours ago, (PS4)LawnMowingMonkey said:

He's referring to how building duration for max invis hurts the range, so it lessens disarm's effectiveness.

 

*laughs in limbo* 😛

Sure but that's why you balance the build? Its called min/maxing where you mod something for the maximum of a single stat however quite often this incolves drastically reducing the other stats i.e inaros with literally nothing but maxed out health mods would have a lot of health but probably very little energy and less than 0 shields or an all ability range inaros would be able to reach practically everything ahead with his 1 but his health would be low and duration and strength would be very low which in turn would reduce the amount of lifesteal, damage per tick and amount of time the ability is active for

I never go below 100% on my stuffs unless im absolutely certain that it isn't much loss like a duration build on a nidus build using only his 1

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14 minutes ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

Sure but that's why you balance the build? Its called min/maxing where you mod something for the maximum of a single stat however quite often this incolves drastically reducing the other stats i.e inaros with literally nothing but maxed out health mods would have a lot of health but probably very little energy and less than 0 shields or an all ability range inaros would be able to reach practically everything ahead with his 1 but his health would be low and duration and strength would be very low which in turn would reduce the amount of lifesteal, damage per tick and amount of time the ability is active for

I never go below 100% on my stuffs unless im absolutely certain that it isn't much loss like a duration build on a nidus build using only his 1

No one is arguing about that, the guy you were quoting was just talking about how the fact that invis is always the priority, range will always take a hit when modding for duration, and there's no real incentive to work on range, hurting disarm's effectiveness, that was the original point, nothing about duration for his 4.


Just as a side note, Inaros already has 0 shields.

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12 hours ago, ReinAxefury said:

We don't need every single warframe to be a "press 4 to kill the map". Loki has not aged because CC is not good, but because the game has been dumbed down as a result of power creep and lack of challenge, as most of the time people don't play missions to a point where that would matter to them. For those comparing Loki with Ivara and Octavia... Ivara and Octavia are broken OP and shouldn't be a comparison to anything but an example of what should be nerfed or at least not buffed, like the highest point a frame could go. We don't need more Ivaras and Octavias, if people want them, with those 2 is fine already.

 

What is it that Loki can't do that he would require a rework? Nothing. If you thought about something, there you go, something you need to figure out (and im not doing your homework). "But he's outclassed by..." if there is any frame that's not outclassed by anyone, it should be nerfed. "But he doesn't outclass anyone" false, he is top tier CC/Stealth. "I don't need CC, i want damage!" play other frame. "But i want to play Loki and deal damage!" You can... "Why im pressing 4 and enemies are not dying?" Weapons. Use them. "But..." i said Im not doing your homework.

Actually I disagree with nerfing things i think everything is fine as it is considering things like eso the endless gamemodes with their endless enemy levels i believe that without the 'overpowered' frames the eso and endless types would quickly become impossible however these death frames should be sticking around in these types for a lot longer than i see when im in a group otherwise it's unnecessarily kill stealing which creates this sorta drama with "nerf this" and "buff this"

 

Just pick the right frame for the right job dont try to use a screwdriver to remove a bolt

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1 minute ago, (PS4)LawnMowingMonkey said:

No one is arguing about that, the guy you were quoting was just talking about how the fact that invis is always the priority, range will always take a hit when modding for duration, and there's no real incentive to work on range, hurting disarm's effectiveness, that was the original point, nothing about duration for his 4.


Just as a side note, Inaros already has 0 shields.

Im aware just saying my build was fairly balanced between both i don't use invis tons so invis isnt my first priority but i definitely mod quite heavily on duration for the decoy regardless of how long it lasts against enemies the additional range is for while im running and/or for distance casting while also giving a bonus to his 3 and 4

 

And i know inaros has 0 shields hence why I said less than 0 shields

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3 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

You dont mod your Warframe?

i don’t allocate a mod slot to rolling guard or hushed. i use one build for him because i use him for every last non defensive farming mission there is. I use other frames for variety or their niche efficiency for that mission solo.

for 2ndary i use hikou with concealed explosives, primary is a nicely rivened baza, good for most stuff up to sortie or flood level and a zaw dagger with contagion arcane. so, no hushed. he never gets hit (outside the odd aoe from behind i might take).

my loki is simply very fast and invisible for 40+ seconds.

any longish straight area on most mission nodes is simply quickly spanned by void dash on any frame because energizing dash and magus heal are never bad regardless of frame used anyway.

Edited by (PS4)teacup775
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