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Is Loki in a not so good position rigth now?


-Sentient-
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16 hours ago, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

I never said anyone was arguing about my build lol i was just saying that it's perfectly plausible to maintain both range and duration loki isnt the only one like this though and i don't think it should be changed it makes us think a bit more and prioritize what we want 

As for the less than 0 shields idk if it's a thing but its about all i could think of that relates to health without being health since health was being maxed out the other stuff would be reduced further perhaps armour would have been a better choice

Again, no one is saying you can't build like that, the thing is, there's no real incentive to build for anything other than invisibility and just maximize around it, in general, if you do, and feel good with your build, that's awesome, but in broader terms that's what ends up happening with him.

I understand the point you were trying to make, but taking those stats as an example doesn't quite work, just because there's no mod (that I can think of atm) that makes you sacrifice one stat for another, without corrupted mods for those, you just mod for that stat or you don't, the only thing that could be seen as a sacrifice, is when you start running out of mod slots and have to start choosing what to include and what to leave out.

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8 hours ago, S.Dust said:

yup you are stubborn

There's a difference between being stubborn and simply knowing better. You seem to get worked up over so little. I never said he shouldn't get any beneficial edit to his decoy or something. I'm just saying that he's all but in dire need of work. And if you seem to disagree with that then oh boi are you in for a ride...

9 hours ago, S.Dust said:

You're just proving me right people just hate change.

*looks at Chroma's "fIxEd mAtHs"*

Can you blame us?

9 hours ago, S.Dust said:

Also I just needed to say this but endurance runs are pointless they serve no purpose and are just bragging rights for "end game" players.

tenor.gif?itemid=4476328

To me and others, they serve as what is actually challenging and fun in this game. Entertainment. I don't need to set up world records and post them on the forums in order to have fun.

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5 hours ago, OmegaZero633 said:

I still wish switch teleporting with an enemy would temporarily make that enemy vulnerable to friendly fire, while simultaneously forcing enemy attention on him for a second. Maybe greatly increase said enemy’s damage vulnerability as well so you can do things like kill a bombard with his own rockets.

Would be a cool augment at least.

Until you remember that enemies deal pathetic damage, because typically a frame has 600~ shields and 1000~ health.

So even high level enemies might only deal 9 damage per shot.

High level enemies start to have tens of thousands of health points, and hundreds of armor.

The only reflected damage that does anything is Octavia’s, because it has infinite scaling damage potential.

On Mesa, it’s tedious to kill level 5-10s with shatter shield.

Enemy damage is just too pathetic to hurt enemies.

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9 hours ago, OmegaZero633 said:

I still wish switch teleporting with an enemy would temporarily make that enemy vulnerable to friendly fire, while simultaneously forcing enemy attention on him for a second. Maybe greatly increase said enemy’s damage vulnerability as well so you can do things like kill a bombard with his own rockets.

Would be a cool augment at least.

Umm... it's called radiating disarm and it makes all the enemies in the room do what you wish would be available instead of just the single target you want to kill.

This kinda sums up these arbitrary posts.

People need to think more about what things actually do in the game. 

Edited by (PS4)NastyNath74
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I use Loki for two things; farming corrupted mods solo, and sortie spy missions solo. 

He is indeed great at what he does, but is honestly incredibly boring and basic. His concept is fine, but there need to be more things happening with his abilities to make them more useful for different situations. 

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4 hours ago, Orblit said:

I see not much reason to change Loki at all....if you want a past frame to be changed due to newer ones being able to somewhat, but not really, do 1/4th of his abilities then..tenor.gif
 

Octavia is a better loki she has infinite invis if she keeps it active since she can recast and she has a decoy (mallet) that has enemies kill themselves all she is missing is the disarm because we all know switch tp is useless also the main thing people use him for is spy and small side things which over time you learn to do with any frame.

Edited by S.Dust
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12 minutes ago, S.Dust said:

Octavia is a better loki she has infinite invis if she keeps it active since she can recast and she has a decoy (mallet) that has enemies kill themselves all she is missing is the disarm because we all know switch tp is useless also the main thing people use him for is spy and small side things which over time you learn to do with any frame.

You're acting like Loki isn't perma-invisible XD Play a good Loki friend. Octavia will be better when her invisibility is literally at the press of a button. Until then she requires far too much micromanagement to do what Loki does with a button press.

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59 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

You're acting like Loki isn't perma-invisible XD Play a good Loki friend. Octavia will be better when her invisibility is literally at the press of a button. Until then she requires far too much micromanagement to do what Loki does with a button press.

She doesn't have an opening every blank amount of time to die.

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So I really didnt want to add anything else to this topic as it's just the same as thousands of others over the years trying to compare frames and people trying to convince each other which one is trash but then this happened to me.

Was hosting a random public bullet dance farm, void sab, and as always I brought my Loki for this as he's fast with almost 37 seconds of invis each cast and can find the caches without any enemy distractions super quick runs as a result.  

An MR18  player says to me " change frames" I asked why? And his reply was..."bringing a Loki makes no sense!"  He was downed twice in the mission somehow while running Rhino and then quit after the first run.

I #*!%ing laughed so hard and thought of this post and wondered if the guy had read it.

P.S. I was running my quick thinking, hushed invisibility, standard range build. 

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16 hours ago, (PS4)LawnMowingMonkey said:

Again, no one is saying you can't build like that, the thing is, there's no real incentive to build for anything other than invisibility and just maximize around it, in general, if you do, and feel good with your build, that's awesome, but in broader terms that's what ends up happening with him.

I understand the point you were trying to make, but taking those stats as an example doesn't quite work, just because there's no mod (that I can think of atm) that makes you sacrifice one stat for another, without corrupted mods for those, you just mod for that stat or you don't, the only thing that could be seen as a sacrifice, is when you start running out of mod slots and have to start choosing what to include and what to leave out.

True but i find the sacrifice is missing out on the additional other stats for the other abilities when you try to use them for example i rarely use disarm so if i built for all duration for the decoy and the invis when i face off against grineer or corpus and try out my 4 its gonna suck cuz it doesn't have any mods for it

To address the no incentive part sure there's no extra benefit from duration on disarm but the converse has a benefit: adding range lets you cast the decoy further away sounds small and useless cuz mostly it is but say you've got a nox coming at you from a long way away your shields are out low health and he's plenty of time to blast you with enough goo to slow you down before you can kill him also you're out of ammo without extra range you're screwed sure your decoy will last a while but you can't get within melee distance cuz as soon as you pass the decoy nox will start gooping you up but with additional range you can place that bad boy anywhere toss it down just behind nox it'll spin round and goop the decoy giving you enough time to run in and assassinate the nox yup assassinate cuz his backs turned while he goops the decoy

My point was poorly made i believe as what i was trying to say was what was demonstrated in my example above which is the semi obvious but has hidden repercussions which is that if you build with no additional range you don't get any additional range (duh) but both decoy and teleport are affected by range and duration and invis is affected only by duration disarm only by range (well intensify ups the damage but its quite small anyway) hence building loki for duration and range gives him flexibility for emergency situations

Id say the 2 stat dependency of his abilities pretty much provides a nice balance with and achievable equilibrium point (best of both) the damage from disarm will always suck but it forces everything to melee so strength doesn't matter

as for people preferring to max out duration for the invis fair enough it does have its perks not running out when you make noise but it doesn't cancel out any noise im not 100% sure but i believe ash's invis cancels noise my friend told me and i don't have ash yet so ive no way of knowing myself bar wiki so if people are after invis frames and builds id suggest him and let loki players who actually use his other abilities build for range and duration 

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The biggest problem with Loki is he requires an extreme resistance to boredom and falling asleep. You'd have to make enemies less dumb when they're obviously being attacked by something before you could even talk about buffing him, and even then he wouldn't need it - and he might even become more meta if enemies are improved.

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I don`t think Loki is top pick for a rework, he is quite good and my favorite frame. 

I think it could be improved though. In the spirit of the thread, here is what I think would bode well for him: 

The wall latch time is not very useful because of the game's mechanics surrounding it. Rather than removing it, I think the game needs more mechanics to improve ita usefulness.

Improve wall latch compounding it with an "enemy latch", which would be like a grab move. This would disable enemy attacks and auras and transfer the frame's damage to the enemy. 

Enemy latch would have reduced duration on Bosses and VIPs such as capture targets.

All existing "wall latch" mods would also be applicable to enemy latch.

Decoy

There was a time where it was indestructible and way back then - it was considered OP. I say either make it indestructible again, or make it invulnerable for the first few seconds, where incoming damage from friend and foe would increase its health and shields instead of reducing it. 

Switch Teleport

I find this ability the most situational of all of Loki's abilities. I would change it to a 2 step process: 

first click marks the first target, which can be the ground, an object, a friend, or a foe. 

second click marks the second target, which can be a destination (ground), an object, a friend or a foe. 

upon executing the second click, first and second targets would switch location. 

if player holds the button instead of clicking, loki changes position with the first target. 

This increases the action with one step, retains the ability's original function, but make it more flexible.

Invisibility

Is fine as is. But if it is made recastable while active it would be golden.

Disarm

I think it is also fine, but a slight damage increase for the targets where it is applicable would be a good improvement. 

 

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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guys i played some games and i know when is kit like this bad , yes im new im warframe but stop just stop repeat all the time 

loki is good in that things ...

loki is awesome warframe 

loki is so awesome ...

his kit need care. its simple hes balanced cuz his 4 is stupidly op "cc" i have no problem with that its dumb ye but ok

his 1 usseles

2 just INVIS no more its fking loki why he cant have invis as passive omg

3 is usseles and yes its usseles if you say yoo its good IN SOME SITUATIONS it need care 

4 its not good spell for somethim with name loki .

I understand every one of you is incredibly afraid that the locus will not be invisible on the map and no one can see everything killed and press there 4 to disarm everything

invis is in this game stupidly broken 

I think every other frame has much better abilities
of course that here is what he was already holding himself out of meta and is always playable but only for invisibility and 4

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13 hours ago, (PS4)NastyNath74 said:

Umm... it's called radiating disarm and it makes all the enemies in the room do what you wish would be available instead of just the single target you want to kill.

This kinda sums up these arbitrary posts.

People need to think more about what things actually do in the game. 

 What does Switch Teleport “do in the game” currently? It confuses a single target that you Teleport with, which is situationally useful and made redundant with the existance of Decoy. It also swaps places with a single target up to 75 meters away (or 210 meters when modded for max range), which is made redundant by bullet jumping and spoilerboi’s ability to spam invincible dashes in the direction you’re looking.

Believe me I’ve tried to have fun with the ability. Swapping with someone in a turret and then shredding him with it is good for a chuckle, while stealing a Dargyn on the plains was useful before the change to Archwing launcher charges. But I mean that’s really all you can do in the end. It’s only really used for movement by most players, you can’t even switch mooks of off edges to their death!

Sure, you’re right in that you could use the disarm augment to make people attack each other and shut down an entire room, which is definitely more useful then killing a single dude using his friends/own weapon. But Loki is described in-game as a “trickster” frame, why not go further with that theme and make him more fun/interesting to play then just the invisible disarm bot he currently is? If effectiveness is the issue then why bother even using Loki when you could just kill everyone in the room with a nuke frame, or aoe weapon?

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All I asked is for some minor changes and QoL stuff lol,didn't ask for a rework

I made a thread about it but i got the same comments from the "Veteran loki master race" saying " if you dont like it dont play it, Loki is just fine.

And I gave up,these peeps are scared even of smaller changes.

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25 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

All I asked is for some minor changes and QoL stuff lol,didn't ask for a rework

I made a thread about it but i got the same comments from the "Veteran loki master race" saying " if you dont like it dont play it, Loki is just fine.

And I gave up,these peeps are scared even of smaller changes.

except you said nothing like that in the OP, and your title was vague af, plus comparing warframes and especially passives in never a good idea 

"A few QoL and Tweaks to Loki Maybe?" 

Then you proceed to say why he needs them, with as little comparison as possible, then you give some ideas of your own and then you ask us to give some too, simple as that. Any heat you're getting is brought by you alone. Chill on pumping out threads for a while and think of your titles and the content you're gonna write 

Loki definitely needs some QoL, mainly on his 1st, so you did have a point....if only you made it clearer 

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7 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

except you said nothing like that in the OP, and your title was vague af, plus comparing warframes and especially passives in never a good idea 

"A few QoL and Tweaks to Loki Maybe?" 

Then you proceed to say why he needs them, with as little comparison as possible, then you give some ideas of your own and then you ask us to give some too, simple as that. Any heat you're getting is brought by you alone. Chill on pumping out threads for a while and think of your titles and the content you're gonna write 

Loki definitely needs some QoL, mainly on his 1st, so you did have a point....if only you made it clearer 

Did you saw the thread I made? the other one ?

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On 2019-01-08 at 9:12 AM, (XB1)Darthgollum 01 said:

True but i find the sacrifice is missing out on the additional other stats for the other abilities when you try to use them for example i rarely use disarm so if i built for all duration for the decoy and the invis when i face off against grineer or corpus and try out my 4 its gonna suck cuz it doesn't have any mods for it

To address the no incentive part sure there's no extra benefit from duration on disarm but the converse has a benefit: adding range lets you cast the decoy further away sounds small and useless cuz mostly it is but say you've got a nox coming at you from a long way away your shields are out low health and he's plenty of time to blast you with enough goo to slow you down before you can kill him also you're out of ammo without extra range you're screwed sure your decoy will last a while but you can't get within melee distance cuz as soon as you pass the decoy nox will start gooping you up but with additional range you can place that bad boy anywhere toss it down just behind nox it'll spin round and goop the decoy giving you enough time to run in and assassinate the nox yup assassinate cuz his backs turned while he goops the decoy

My point was poorly made i believe as what i was trying to say was what was demonstrated in my example above which is the semi obvious but has hidden repercussions which is that if you build with no additional range you don't get any additional range (duh) but both decoy and teleport are affected by range and duration and invis is affected only by duration disarm only by range (well intensify ups the damage but its quite small anyway) hence building loki for duration and range gives him flexibility for emergency situations

Id say the 2 stat dependency of his abilities pretty much provides a nice balance with and achievable equilibrium point (best of both) the damage from disarm will always suck but it forces everything to melee so strength doesn't matter

as for people preferring to max out duration for the invis fair enough it does have its perks not running out when you make noise but it doesn't cancel out any noise im not 100% sure but i believe ash's invis cancels noise my friend told me and i don't have ash yet so ive no way of knowing myself bar wiki so if people are after invis frames and builds id suggest him and let loki players who actually use his other abilities build for range and duration 

But again there's no true 2 stat dependancy with Loki, dunno if you're remembering it, but it all comes down to Narrow Minded, in order to run max duration, you are losing range, Stretch isn't an option at that point 'cause it still leaves you in the red, so you'd have to run with Overextended to compensate and actually come ahead in range %, but that's already 11 points, and that's required to at least not be in the red (luckily, losing strength doesn't matter to Loki). So this is a matter where if you don't build for additional range you actually end up losing range, and at that point, seeing how that investment is negligible one would do better to just keep building around duration, and better try and fit stuff like rolling guard, quick thinking, vigilante pursuit/enemy sense, etc., even though in the end that may be up for personal tastes.

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On 2019-01-08 at 10:00 AM, BrazilianJoe said:

Switch Teleport

I find this ability the most situational of all of Loki's abilities. I would change it to a 2 step process: 

first click marks the first target, which can be the ground, an object, a friend, or a foe. 

second click marks the second target, which can be a destination (ground), an object, a friend or a foe. 

upon executing the second click, first and second targets would switch location. 

if player holds the button instead of clicking, loki changes position with the first target. 

This increases the action with one step, retains the ability's original function, but make it more flexible.

A bit clunky with the "Hold to swap" and being able to swap allies with enemies seems like it could open up trolling opportunities and that seems like a bad idea.

A better way to go about this is to make it possible to swap enemies with enemies or Loki, and make it possible to swap allies with allies or Loki. Also instead of holding the button I'd make it either a double press on the same target or a second press with no target (though both of those can be clunky as well so I'm not 100% sure how to go about fixing that...)

Otherwise this is one of the better ideas I've seen to improve switch teleport in this thread.

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4 hours ago, (PS4)LawnMowingMonkey said:

But again there's no true 2 stat dependancy with Loki, dunno if you're remembering it, but it all comes down to Narrow Minded, in order to run max duration, you are losing range, Stretch isn't an option at that point 'cause it still leaves you in the red, so you'd have to run with Overextended to compensate and actually come ahead in range %, but that's already 11 points, and that's required to at least not be in the red (luckily, losing strength doesn't matter to Loki). So this is a matter where if you don't build for additional range you actually end up losing range, and at that point, seeing how that investment is negligible one would do better to just keep building around duration, and better try and fit stuff like rolling guard, quick thinking, vigilante pursuit/enemy sense, etc., even though in the end that may be up for personal tastes.

Yeah the tradeoff between range and duration lol my point has always been that while it seems clear to just up duration to the max for invis in order to reach maximum duration you need to reduce range which thus hinders all of his other abilities 

And he may not have a perfect 2 stat dependancy due to his 4 dealing damage but as mentioned the damage is miniscule and missing it does no real harm so its the next best thing

The original point that sparked this was i believe saying that there's no reason to mod for duration if you're gonna use his 4 my counter point is that no one ever uses just his 4 its too expensive and while you're casting and trying to get the energy back after all the enemies are swarming you hence balancing duration and range not maxing out either simply increasing both allows for decent invis and decoy times and decoy tp and disarm distances

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