How to improve Warframe's Monetization model, to make horrible RNG grind in the game less necessary!

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Yet they both involve playing the game, so guess which one is better. Here's a hint: The one that doesn't ask you for money to play. Seriously, either stop being lazy and play the game, or stop being greedy and buy the items. You're literally asking to pay 20 bucks to pay the game that you could play for free. Use that 20 bucks to buy a different game that actually costs money.

And guess which one will cause burnout faster. Heres a hint, the absurd rng what is tied to many items you can "farm".

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

...Holy crap, how can you accept these shi*ty business models so easily. Like, imagine going to a car dealer, telling them you'll pay for the car, but then also telling them that you won't pay unless they let you build the car yourself, by hand, no tools, no assistants, no manuals, no directions. Or go to a highly renowned chef, ask them for their best meal, then tell them you'll only pay if you cook it yourself. Like, what's the bloody point?

First the absurd rng based grind is already a S#&$ business model, if i could accept that i can accept this one too.

Second you gotta think in a wider approach, many people had enough of the rng grind we have but dont have enough cash to buy the prime access. Same deal for absurdish frame grinds like harrow.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

You sound really unsatisfied.. why do you even play anymore at this point lol

Sunken cost fallacy, hope that it will get better, addiction....i have no idea. I really like to come up and casually murder thousands but i see that warframe is a game full of problems and im not gonna sugarcoat it.

The f2p model was acceptable in the early 2000's but now its outdated and should be improved.

[Gabbynaru]

11 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

And guess which one will cause burnout faster. Heres a hint, the absurd rng what is tied to many items you can "farm".

First the absurd rng based grind is already a S#&$ business model, if i could accept that i can accept this one too.

Second you gotta think in a wider approach, many people had enough of the rng grind we have but dont have enough cash to buy the prime access. Same deal for absurdish frame grinds like harrow.

 

I'm the one who's gotta think in a wider approach, yet for the battle pass to be justified, you literally need to worsen the experience for everyone who's not willing to or doesn't have enough money to pay. Like, how selfish can you be? Why do you think free to play games do well? Because people don't have money to spend on unjustifiably expensive video games. How do you ruin that for them? Make them pay where they didn't have to before.

And guess what, rather than suggesting the implementation of an absolutely horrible business model, how about you just yell at DE to lessen the grind, like most people do. DE will eventually listen, they're not deaf. At least, if they want to maintain the good will accrued they will. You know what a battle pass will do though? Flush that goodwill down the toilet. And I doubt with that gone they won't suffer. Frankly, I personally would rather just go play something from someone I can trust, and there's a great amount of indies out there I can trust. I don't think I'm alone in that.

[MJ12]

4 hours ago, Jeronan said:

The point is, how many people are willing to pay 60-120 bucks every two months and how many people are willing to pay 20 to 60 bucks every two months?

I gladly pay money to support the Devs, but not by buying the Prime Access or Prime Vault. I find that cheaping out on the game experience. I like to earn stuff in the game, by actually playing the game! Cosmetic stuff. Sure! I bought the Starter packs on both PC and Nintendo Switch along with various cosmetic skins.

And you act like the 20 dollar Season pass gives you everything within a week. I am talking about 2 months for a casual player.

In the end, the whole goal is to get more people to spend money (which is great for DE) and get more people ingame actually playing the game on as much different activities as possible. Which is also good for newer players joining the game and see a lot of activity everywhere. It boosts the metrics.

Okay, I actually have an economics degree and keep up a little with how F2P economics work, so I want to do a deep dive into this and explain the basics of F2P pricing, and why DE prices Prime Access the way it does.

There are three types of F2P players, generally speaking.

First you have the F2Pers, who basically spend no money on the game at all. These guys are a net cost on the game in terms of requiring server resources and support resources to support, but generate your playerbase-without them, you have a dead game. Therefore, you need to set up your game's accessibility so that F2P players can play through the game and have fun without huge amounts of trouble. These guys make up like, 80-90% of your playerbase.

Second, you have the minnows, who spend some money on the game occasionally. The Minnows are the ones in Warframe who drop like, 25 bucks on a 75% off plat coupon and buy a bunch of cosmetics or stuff with it. You want to convert F2Pers into minnows without making them leave, as best as possible. These people make up most of the rest of the playerbase.

Finally, you have the whales, who spend a ton of money on the game. The whales are actually where most of your F2P income comes from-it's not a joke to say that F2P games are literally supported by the 1% of players who spend a ton of money on the game. This is where the majority of your real money transactions income will come from, and this is where you want to cater a lot of your RMT buyables to. This is why Prime Access comes with so much 'stuff' in a non-negotiable bundle-DE doesn't want to rip whales off, but it also absolutely wants to get money out of said whales.

Basically, Prime Access exists to either convert minnows into whales, or soak the whales. It's not intended as a regular purchase for anyone but the people who are willing to whale in Warframe. There are other, relatively low-cost things (the intro packs, 75% off plat coupons, etc) which exist to convert F2Pers to paying players. The cheaper stuff like potatoes and slots exist to encourage players to spend small amounts of money.

It's not fun for F2Pers or minnows when they see a whale going around with the coolest cosmetics and day 1 access to the newest stuff, but as a result they tend to get a ton of content for free/cheap because their gameplay is subsidized by the people spending a ton of money on the game.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Then let's hope it gets a full release soon™ with the typical 60-70$ price tag 😛

This game is not good enough to worth more than 20$ total.

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

I'm the one who's gotta think in a wider approach, yet for the battle pass to be justified, you literally need to worsen the experience for everyone who's not willing to or doesn't have enough money to pay. Like, how selfish can you be? Why do you think free to play games do well? Because people don't have money to spend on unjustifiably expensive video games. How do you ruin that for them? Make them pay where they didn't have to before.

Before everything else can you tell me just how would this worsen the experience for someone who doesnt willing to pay?

Its not like you cant already go and buy almost every frame/weapon/companion and the actual prime access for pre-built prime gear, so i really dont see just how would a cheaper option what leads to the same outcome only a bit slower suddenly makes the game worse. 

I have serious doubts that this change or anything similar would suddenly make the game more "pay 2 win" than it is already and we all know that warframe is as far from p2w as we are from the next habitable planet.

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

And guess what, rather than suggesting the implementation of an absolutely horrible business model, how about you just yell at DE to lessen the grind, like most people do. DE will eventually listen, they're not deaf. At least, if they want to maintain the good will accrued they will. You know what a battle pass will do though? Flush that goodwill down the toilet. And I doubt with that gone they won't suffer. Frankly, I personally would rather just go play something from someone I can trust, and there's a great amount of indies out there I can trust. I don't think I'm alone in that.

You know why you dont see me yelling at DE to lessen the grind? Because i know how stubborn they can be over trivial madness and attacking their moneymaker strategy is futile. If it would have any use that the masses come up here and after their voice is heard we get implemented changes the moderation changes would have come last years spring, we would have an ah and the several useless frames would have already been buffed.

I complained at the nidus grind, complained at the hema incident but DE wont dent if it means potencial less cash. Things you can learn from vivergate is as soon as you gain more than what DE want you to earn as a free player you gonna see nerfs.

 

F2P games mostly stand afloat due to insane amount of cosmetical stuff to buy and lots of players, warframe already steps out of these bounds by selling away almost all gear too.

[(PSN)corpusbonds]

1 hour ago, MJ12 said:

Okay, I actually have an economics degree and keep up a little with how F2P economics work, so I want to do a deep dive into this and explain the basics of F2P pricing, and why DE prices Prime Access the way it does.

There are three types of F2P players, generally speaking.

First you have the F2Pers, who basically spend no money on the game at all. These guys are a net cost on the game in terms of requiring server resources and support resources to support, but generate your playerbase-without them, you have a dead game. Therefore, you need to set up your game's accessibility so that F2P players can play through the game and have fun without huge amounts of trouble. These guys make up like, 80-90% of your playerbase.

Second, you have the minnows, who spend some money on the game occasionally. The Minnows are the ones in Warframe who drop like, 25 bucks on a 75% off plat coupon and buy a bunch of cosmetics or stuff with it. You want to convert F2Pers into minnows without making them leave, as best as possible. These people make up most of the rest of the playerbase.

Finally, you have the whales, who spend a ton of money on the game. The whales are actually where most of your F2P income comes from-it's not a joke to say that F2P games are literally supported by the 1% of players who spend a ton of money on the game. This is where the majority of your real money transactions income will come from, and this is where you want to cater a lot of your RMT buyables to. This is why Prime Access comes with so much 'stuff' in a non-negotiable bundle-DE doesn't want to rip whales off, but it also absolutely wants to get money out of said whales.

Basically, Prime Access exists to either convert minnows into whales, or soak the whales. It's not intended as a regular purchase for anyone but the people who are willing to whale in Warframe. There are other, relatively low-cost things (the intro packs, 75% off plat coupons, etc) which exist to convert F2Pers to paying players. The cheaper stuff like potatoes and slots exist to encourage players to spend small amounts of money.

It's not fun for F2Pers or minnows when they see a whale going around with the coolest cosmetics and day 1 access to the newest stuff, but as a result they tend to get a ton of content for free/cheap because their gameplay is subsidized by the people spending a ton of money on the game.

As a whale who gets constantly yelled at (for being a ‘wallet warrior’), I thank you for this. I’ve invested a lot into this game, and I have no shame and will gladly continue to do so for years if that’s what it is.

[peterc3]

31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This game is not good enough to worth more than 20$ total.

Why do you inflict this awful game upon yourself, then?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

9 hours ago, Jeronan said:

In general RNG is just a cheap way of development

This is a basic failure to understand how games work. Research "Skinner Box", but basically you need an element of chance because predictability is actually boring.

9 hours ago, Jeronan said:

Sadly. The problem with Warframe and F2P games in general, is that they want to force people to spend money (so the company can survive) and make the odds in RNG so low it becomes unfair, tedious and worst case frustrating

Actually Warframe's not at all bad for this. It has its issues, definitely, but it's also a) free and b) everything can be looted.

The only thing you have to buy are slots, and you can also get them by levelling and get buy without them.

9 hours ago, Jeronan said:

When someone who is lucky can play for 1 hour and get the item he/she wants and someone else can play for a whole month and not getting it, that is where RNG has gone terribly wrong.

Yes, that happens, but then you can also trade those items. There are vet players who pay nothing and will happily sell you what hasn't dropped for you to keep them in plat. That way people who want to pay can find people prepared to grind.

9 hours ago, Jeronan said:

Why not create and release a Warframe Season pass(es) every 2 months or so, that people buy for say 20 bucks, with different unlock stages,

Because that creates 2 classes of players: subscribers and freebies. That class split would be based on who pays, which isn't what we have right now. 

Warframe would become pay to win.

That sucks. We don't want that. Fortnight can keep it.

Warframe has a successful monetisation model, and an engaged community. It would be crazy to switch to a model where hardcore==subscribers.

In short: a subscription/season pass is a terrible idea.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

12 hours ago, Jeronan said:

In general RNG is just a cheap way of development and doesn't really create any actual enjoyment in gaming, unless the odds are reasonable. 

Because they can't keep up with the CONSUMPTION of content.

A studio releases content and not even 30 days later, people are bored; demanding faster/more drop rates; anything to get the reward faster ... to only demand MORE content.

So some type of break in the CONSUMPTION cycle has to be employed.

If players don't pace themselves, devs will have to enforce pacing themselves.

No one likes it, but until a better model is discovered, this is the "filler" content between new content ... THE GRIND (and add the RNG on top, so even if people bot for longer, they're not guranteed drops).

There's methods to the madness, all brought on by consumption and demanding content faster than it can be created, too.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Kevyne_Kicklighter

[Puppyboy4]

10 hours ago, Jeronan said:

Maybe if you play 10 hours a day and the RNG is your best friend, you unlock everything before the vaulting. Fine.

As a mesa main who got her on day one by PREPARING, (amazing thing i know) its not hard to get a prime frame easily and casually, if you trade and sell things for plat you can easily get up platinum and buy it aswell. RNG may be bad, but its not impossible to get items/parts, as someone who thinks i have really bad luck i can still get things within an hour.
Sounds to me like you haven't played this game for what it is, or haven't became efficent enough to farm faster.

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Why do you inflict this awful game upon yourself, then?

Hey 20$ is a fair price for a game as good as this, anything more is just pointless greed and stupidity.

[Fallen_Echo]

14 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Warframe would become pay to win.

Just tell me how is subsribing to get stuff vs outright buying stuff is different?

We are arguing about subscription based accquiring method in a game where you can literally buy "power".

 

What makes "Pay 30$ to get 4 prime part pieces/blueprins as soon as they arrive" VS "Pay 70 to buy the whole thing pre-built and potatoed" worse?

Edited January 8, 2019 by Fallen_Echo
grammar

[Jeronan]

10 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

 

Warframe would become pay to win.

That sucks. We don't want that. Fortnight can keep it.

Warframe has a successful monetisation model, and an engaged community. It would be crazy to switch to a model where hardcore==subscribers.

In short: a subscription/season pass is a terrible idea.

HAHAHA. Are you friggin serious? Or just trolling?  Do you even know the concept Pay 2 Win? 

Fortnite isn't Pay 2 Win, since you can't buy anything to make you more powerful! All you can buy in Fortnite is Cosmetic stuff and the Battlepass, again, gives you cosmetic unlocks. Avatar, backpack and mining pick skins and (dance) emotes. That's it.

The Battlepass is there for Epic to generate reliable recurring income, to keep the game up and running. You don't have to buy it nor buy anything in Fortnite and just play it free and it will not have any affect on you ingame experience, other than how "cool" you look or not. LOL.

Warframe however, actually always has been Pay 2 Win by design, since you can literally buy everything for Platinum if you want to.

Prime Access and Prime Vault are outright Pay 2 Win packages that give you ready to use Prime Warframes and Weapons. /Shrug

Are you even playing this game? Or just a Internet forum warrior lol.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Jeronan

[Jeronan]

19 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

You don't have to buy them. But as the alternative then you have to grind for them. This has always been the model from the beginning and it's worked will so far.

Buying a subscription just so you have a better chance at getting stuff does not sit well for me. If you're going to be putting money into it I think just buying play to instantly get what you want is a lot better.

Buying outright to get what you want doesn't sit well with me, as what is the point of playing the game, if you just buy everything outright? I still want to work for it and play the actual game to earn it. It's part of playing an RPG type game.

The issue with the current state of the game is that it divides the playerbase into a very hardcore faction, that plays insane amount of hours, been with the game since the beginning and as such don't mind the grind since they will get it all before certain Prime Warframes and weapons disappear again in the Vault.

And then you have the rest of the playerbase that is struggling with the insane grind wall and incredibly punishing RNG and unable to obtain the stuff they want before it gets removed from the game again. Except for the lucky few that have the RNG on their side.

So either you toss your entire family and social life out of the window and play this game non-stop or you forced to buy stuff with platinum, unless you happen to extremely lucky with RNG this time around.

There is currently nothing in between. I try to offer possible alternatives to fill the gap and provide alternative ways to obtain "time limited" blueprints, etc, like Prime Warframes and Prime weapons.

And before attacking me again. I don't mind spending money and support the Devs. I already done that by regularly buying cosmetic stuff, like Warframe and weapon skins, etc.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

23 minutes ago, Jeronan said:

So either you toss your entire family and social life out of the window and play this game non-stop or you forced to buy stuff with platinum, unless you happen to extremely lucky with RNG this time around.

I 100% disagree with you on that on a couple fronts. First, not everything can be bought with platinum. Cetus and Fortuna standing has to be earned. No RNG involved with that. Second, almost all timed exclusive content has returned one way or another, by Baro, or by prime vault, etc. Third you don't have to sacrifice family or social life. I have someone I'm dating in a different state, I play D&D twice a week, and I see my family and friends every weekend. It's all about managing your time and not worrying about getting everything immediately. 

Tl;dr I spend about an hour or two a day on Warframe and I have never really had an issue with Warframe's RNG. Remember this is a free game. You don't have to pay a dime on it. But for those who may not have a whole lot of time or want to support the game, that option is there too. It's what they have to do to keep the game free.

[Steel_Rook]

Without wishing to be cass, this reads like "I like Fortnite, make a Warframe Battle Pass" to me. And I personally don't see the appeal. It's paying money either way - might as well get the items I'm paying for rather than paying for the privilege to grind for them perhaps a little less. Yes, Warframe is exceptionally grindy, but at least buying Weapons and Warframes doesn't involve jumping through additional hoops. You get what you pay for. I'd appreciate not being nickel-and-dimed over Forma, Orokin Catalysts/Reactors, Lenses, etc., but I don't see how a Battle Pass is any better, other than maybe being a little cheaper. As a cheapskate myself who only really spends money on a 75% off, though, eh.

What, really, is the benefit to me as a consumer in buying what amounts to a ticket towards slightly less of a grind vs. just buying the stuff directly?

[Jeronan]

2 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

Without wishing to be cass, this reads like "I like Fortnite, make a Warframe Battle Pass" to me. And I personally don't see the appeal. It's paying money either way - might as well get the items I'm paying for rather than paying for the privilege to grind for them perhaps a little less. Yes, Warframe is exceptionally grindy, but at least buying Weapons and Warframes doesn't involve jumping through additional hoops. You get what you pay for. I'd appreciate not being nickel-and-dimed over Forma, Orokin Catalysts/Reactors, Lenses, etc., but I don't see how a Battle Pass is any better, other than maybe being a little cheaper. As a cheapskate myself who only really spends money on a 75% off, though, eh.

What, really, is the benefit to me as a consumer in buying what amounts to a ticket towards slightly less of a grind vs. just buying the stuff directly?

Fortnite was just a reference. Don't even play that game anymore, since I am not so into PVP anymore like the good old days of Unreal Tournament '99 and Battlefield 1942.

But it can't be argued that EPIC did a lot of things right that hits a snare with a lot of people and brings a s-hit ton of money in EPIC's coffers. All by selling cosmetic items only.

Same with Path of Exile, where Grinding Gear Games is doing really well by just having a Cosmetic items Cash Shop only.

I fully well know that Warframe is Pay 2 Win at it's core and always has been from the get go, with strong focus on Platinum and the whole trade market revolving around it. It's their current business model to make money.

There is a reason why Prime Warframes and weapons are on a timed schedule and make the time window to acquire in the game short enough, to push enough people into buying the Prime Access and Prime Vault packages!

Doesn't mean it will have to be that forever. Years ago, when this game was developed, this was the typical Asian F2P model (and still is in the East).

But times change, especially after increasing backlash against loot boxes and Micro Transactions here in the West, where you see games like Fortnite and Path of Exile (again just examples) can be very successful without Pay 2 Win cash shops, but selling cosmetic items for the right price that makes people willing to spend money on it.

So it would be nice if DE could transition into a more Cosmetic Cash shop model into the future. There are so many cool cosmetic things they can create. Lots of cool Warframe skins, Pet skins, Weapon skins, Interior decoration items, etc, when done right and priced right, people willing to spend money on.

This is marketing psychology 101! A lot more people are willing to spend a couple bucks on Cosmetic items here and there, then big expensive packs that cost 50 - 70 bucks each!

That way, the game itself no longer has to have such extreme grind walls and punishing RNG to entice people to spend platinum as core income model for DE!

Just my 2 cents.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Jeronan

[(XBOX)Shodian]

1 hour ago, Jeronan said:

I fully well know that Warframe is Pay 2 Win at it's core

Except it's not. Examples are ExcalIbur Umbra and his sword. Both are really great Warframe and Weapon you get for free that can handle pretty much all content in this game. Leveling up mods to make you stronger is done with Endo that you can get boat loads of without buying it.

 

1 hour ago, Jeronan said:

There is a reason why Prime Warframes and weapons are on a timed schedule and make the time window to acquire in the game short enough, to push enough people into buying the Prime Access and Prime Vault packages!

Like I've said before, free to play game, they have the option but you don't need to buy it. You can use the base Warframe and Weapons just fine without going for prime. The frame I go for most in Nidus, and there is no prime variant of him.

1 hour ago, Jeronan said:

This is marketing psychology 101! A lot more people are willing to spend a couple bucks on Cosmetic items here and there, then big expensive packs that cost 50 - 70 bucks each!

You seem to forget what comes in the $50 - $70 packages. Lots of platinum to buy said cosmetics. And at a cheaper rate. So it's a better value to buy those packs.

 

1 hour ago, Jeronan said:

That way, the game itself no longer has to have such extreme grind walls and punishing RNG to entice people to spend platinum as core income model for DE!

As Ive said before, Warframe is a free to play game. This model is nessecary in order for it to continue to be free. It has worked up till now and the fan base is still growing with no slow down in site. Warframe would not be as big as it is today if not for this model.

Edited January 8, 2019 by (XB1)Shodian

[Fallen_Echo]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Except it's not. Examples are ExcalIbur Umbra and his sword. Both are really great Warframe and Weapon you get for free that can handle pretty much all content in this game. Leveling up mods to make you stronger is done with Endo that you can get boat loads of without buying it.

Im gonna point out that just because you can get some stuff for free what is not buyable for cash does not invalidate that almost everything else works in a pay for power way.

Pay to get power was always here, infact PA stuff are mastery unlocked what is something no grind can unlock.

56 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Like I've said before, free to play game, they have the option but you don't need to buy it. You can use the base Warframe and Weapons just fine without going for prime. The frame I go for most in Nidus, and there is no prime variant of him.

This is the same argument you can hear in many actual p2w games, just because the starter equipment can handle the endgame encounter that does not mean that the buyable power is irrelevant.

Also for the nidus part:

Yet.

59 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

You seem to forget what comes in the $50 - $70 packages. Lots of platinum to buy said cosmetics. And at a cheaper rate. So it's a better value to buy those packs.

That depends on the hardware you use, on console if i know right you dont have discounts on plat so the 50$ pa pack offers both more plat plus equipment than the 50$ plat purchase, but on pc you can get a 75% coupon and get 4200p for that price what is a lot.

(correct me if i made a mistake here)

1 hour ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

As Ive said before, Warframe is a free to play game. This model is nessecary in order for it to continue to be free. It has worked up till now and the fan base is still growing with no slow down in site. Warframe would not be as big as it is today if not for this model.

While i pretty much agree with this, i dont think it would cause any problems to create a "battle pass".

25$ for 1 bp and the requied parts/bps when the next one is released is a fair price in my opinion.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

 Pay to get power was always here, infact PA stuff are mastery unlocked what is something no grind can unlock.

Huh? Mastery literally is a grind meter, you unlock by grind the resources to build new weapons, and then grind the XP for said weapon and repeat, it's a grind fest.  PA is to bypass the grind, so it makes sense that it ignore mastery requirement. So you can grind to meet the Mastery requirement for Prime warframe and weapon you want.

Pay to get power in a PVE Co-op farm simulator game is fine is it not? There's no competitive activity what so ever. If you buy a power-up you benefit everyone plays with you. Hell if all my teammates are stronger than me then it means less work for me, I'm happy. Furthermore, PA is not a power-up in any meaningful way. It's basically a skin with some pathetic attribute changes that contribute nothing but players feeling. There's no game content where a prime warframe can walk through with ease, but it's normal counterpart struggles.   

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

25$ for 1 bp and the requied parts/bps when the next one is released is a fair price in my opinion.

So do you want to replace the PA with BP, or on top of PA add a BP? and what do you think the grind of Battle pass should be? ofc no more rng but it has to have some grind right? Just curious. 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

7 hours ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Except it's not.

Nope. The base design of Warframe is P2W.

The mere fact the game started on the model of 4 deaths a day and PAY to continue playing, or you can't play for 24hrs ... is P2W.

Even the concept of the healing/energy/munition pads is P2W (that's seen in P2W games). It was DESIGNED to be that way.

It's not TOTALLY P2W, but things like you can buy XYZ package and can even bypass MR ratings, shows at it's core the game IS P2W. DE just does it more subtlety than other games with loot boxes or gaming "cards".

There's a big section of gamers that dislike that concept. Cosmetics are fine as it doesn't affect gameplay, but buying gear or even characters ... that gets a chunk of players upset (and they're like that in subscription or FTP games, too).

[MasterBurik]

@Kevyne_Kicklighter

When do we get back to differentiating Pay to Win and Pay for Advancement/Pay to Progress?

[Leyers_of_facade]

If people are willing to pay 20 bucks per season, they can easily still get most things by just buying plat (or even wait for a lucky plat discount and pay more in 1 go) then buy all the primes they need. Even for things like kitguns in fortuna, you can just buy them with plat (although its a bit expensive).

A pass that makes grinding easier is only going to make the grind harder for the players who don't buy it. Otherwise there is no justification for players to buy them. 

To be honest, the only grind in fortuna (and maybe even warframe entirely) currently that you can't just bypass with plat is probably repeller system (and basically the ranking up of vox solaris) as they are not tradeable afaik and requires pretty much the spamming of a boring mission (part 2)

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 2019-01-07 at 7:51 AM, Jeronan said:

1. You create recurring income every two months, since a lot more people are willing to pay 20 bucks every 2 months (this is a fair price compared to Pay 2 Play MMOs like WoW and FFXIV that charge 10-15 bucks a month subscription fee).

People who play games like WoW like the per month subscription model. Main reason is for budgeting. Even people who are disabled can afford $15/mon for their entertainment (MUCH cheaper than even buying used books! I read a book a day ... $2 a book a day ... see why WoW is cheaper???).

Quarterly billing you get a "surprise" in your limited budget every 3 months. Why many don't go for semi-annual option (WoW used to have a yearly sub, too).

FTP games don't WANT subscriptions as they can make more money via their model. Blizzard (should just call it Activison now) wants to make WoW in a FTP model because they can rake in more money, but the players absolutely refuse it. Activision offers that next, WoW is dead. Already enough friction with $25 mounts, add more, another mass exodus WILL happen.

They won't be able to afford to play.

FTP model came as a means to pay for games without needing loans and venture capital. They depend on "whales" paying them MORE than a subscription to operate and to offer their games as "FTP". All that nickel and diming adds up, 10p here, 10p there. ALL LEGIT plat ingame comes from purchased plat. Those people "playing for free" selling for plat, that plat isn't like gold in WoW, WF's plat is real money paid by others.

Take that currency out, WF is dead. All the crappy third-party sites that even help to PROMOTE games have no incentive to sell non-legit plat, as the people are gone. The game dies.

These games are really sleazy operations at it's core. To be "popular" they NEED those pesky currency sellers to make the game look "popular", and they need them to SELL cheaper currency, too. The FAT whales buy legit currency. The cheap folks buy from currency sellers. But in the end the studios "win". They feed off each other. WoW wouldn't have been as popular as they became without all those gold sellers (come on a former Goldman Sachs employee had the largest gold selling COMPANY???), they'd be just another game title. But those gold sellers arepromoters who advertise their game all over, as free advertising.

So, any changes in the pay models in gaming, you have to factor in the 3rd party sites too (and oh, they're on forums doing everything to KEEP in business, too). Get too strict on 3rd parties, the studios will see a drop in players playing. THEY can't let it drop too far or the game dies.

Blizzard learned that the hard way......

My other sister was dying (stage 4 cancer) and one of her bucket list goals was to get all of the WotLK gem recipes. But Blizzard didn't document that they REDUCED the titanium ore drops. She spent months farming Saronite so Titanium nodes would spawn. But unlike WF where there's no limit on how many mats you can hold in your inventory, there's a bag space limit on how much of ANYTHING you can store in WoW. She couldn't sell it fast enough. She wound up just GIVING away the Saronite, even.

Blizzard noticed. They warned her to stop.Then accused her of being a bot. Even though she reduced her farming, about 4 months later (probably because the botters complained), they permanently banned her account.

But here's the catch: they didn't stop her from buying ANOTHER account. Said she's free to buy another.............

Now you know WHY botters are never gotten totally rid of in some games. It's not just because they want to monitor what bot makers are doing in those ban waves, they'll wait to sell them another account in those "ban waves". Extra cash by the hundreds of thousands of accounts at a time and an extra $49 each..........................

See how the REAL MONEY games are played, now?????

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

32 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

@Kevyne_Kicklighter

When do we get back to differentiating Pay to Win and Pay for Advancement/Pay to Progress?

When real money is taken out of the equation.