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MarrikBroom

How about removing the mod packs and other noob traps from the in game store?

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54 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

And complete removal of these things that might have made sense in a prior point in time but feel ultra 'I got ripped off because  I didn't know better.'

Now Then on the idea that you want a few of these things to exist anyway? I have suggestions:

Again. I would Strongly Prefer outright and complete removal so please do not take this as an endorsement.

Make a 'newbie one time only' pack that conveniently costs that fifty starting platinum.

This pack consists of:

100k credits.

ONE mod from the following list: Streamline, Intensify, Continuity, Rage, A single aura mod
ONE mod from the following list: Serration,  any of the 90% elemental primary rifle mods, Multishot

ONE mod from the following: Pistol gambit, Hornet Strike, ONE of the 90% elemental mods.

ONE mod from the following list: ONE melee stance, Any of the 90% elemental mods, Pressure Point, Fury

ONE random three-day booster.

A Warframe slot, and two weapon slots.

Unlocking the entire starting color pallet.

For fifty plat that is a great bargain right? However, that would be a one time purchase.

***

If you wish to have plat to credit conversion? One million credits for 75 plat. That equates to getting carried for a while in the index, something that is easy to have done if you have friends, but this is for people that don't have friends in game don't want to pub and have more plat than time.

***

Mod Packs?:
I really see no use in these things unless you go through the drop lists, look for all the things from sabotage caches, spy rewards, etc, the things with horrifyingly low drop chances (bullet dance being a noteable example,) and gurentee at least one of those. Then you gurentee an aura mod because those are always useful, then you review your lists for the mod packs and get rid of all the garbage 'haha we're padding out our lists and diluting the drop tables' mods because this is someone spending platinum they either traded for or bought. You cut the trash and show people the GOOD worthwhile to have mods.

That said? I'd rather get rid of mod packs, but if mod packs MUST exist? That is how i would do them. Give out good mods, preferrably ranked up at least half way if not all the way because again this is someone spending plat and if you want these things in the store they need to justify their existance and not feel like a scam. You know, like that kubrow slot machine that got yanked after someone slotted in two hundred bucks that puff piece praised you for? If it feels like a scam in hindsight? It's something that must either change to drastically feel good for having bought, or go completely.

***

Rare Resource Builders:
First off. I don't like these. However if they must exist? Make them cost credits instead of plat. that fixes the worst quality of these in that it's making them cost a fairly easy oto get the resource for the blueprint instead of platinum.

For resource bundles? Outright remove. You shouldn't be spamming the buy now button. You should be encouraged to participate in the core gameplay loop that is farming. Which is where resource boosters come into play and already exist in a variety of reasonable price points.

 

 

I couldn't agree more on your starter pack idea. 

For starters let's just get one thing straight; DE's flagship selling point is "trust". Since they have such great practices and know to listen to their community they gain fame and trust by said community, who opens its wallet to support the game, as well as progress in it. 

Yes, before DE relied on stuff they have diverged now from, like these predatory packs, exclusive stuff like founders pack or even rewards (apart from some cosmetic only items), and are going towards a more inclusive game, where everyone gets rewards and doesn't get punished for not being here since day 1. Yes, DE did it, and I'm sure they needed to, but not anymore, not when "trust" is their selling point.

Now, onto the pack idea I agreed with, and how it connects with what I say above; It's a single use pack, like many others DE makes available (It's not like I can build the sweet deal of PA's over and over), and if a player has such a chance they'll feel happier and more prepared. What does that mean? They'll be encouraged to progress and give back to DE in the future. Each of these facilitator packs are a mere investment by DE on the players so that they can grow and become paying customers later, when they decide to stay in the game. 

Predatory tactis are a no-brainer for me, honestly. There shouldn't even be a discussion, all of these hurt the game. And I'm sure DE knows how strong is a communities will, specially when this happens on a F2P game, which relies on constant investment from players. And for that we should make them happy at least in the beginning, no if's and but's.

I get the feeling that there's that person at DE's meeting who always makes a "No! We must make money! Players must be slowed down trough grind or by walling important stuff! I know what I'm saying!", and then we get wasted oportunities like most of the so-called endgame modes who are left dusting because DE refuses to give players a reason to play them in the long run. Same logic applies to these packs. Sure, you can't grant everything for free, and there must be some level of effort by the players, but most of the time DE has clear "players will give up for real if this doesn't happen" and they choose not to give in until the outcry is so strong they are forced to.

Just a small disclaimer: I'm usually that guy who defends DE most of the time in these threads, but I too agree DE can be very undecisive about a lot of stuff, and I understand why, but DE's biggest flaw, as far as I can see, is not thinking long term. Sure, a 6-8 months planning is healthy, but plan week to week, month to month and 3 years ahead as well. That's how corporate management works. And sure most things in all that long-term planning will have to change, but that's not bad. Better to change a plan for something better give certain circumstances than having no long term plan at all. I'm sorry for the long rant, everyone. Just my 2 cents about a company I love and I want to see doing even better than it is right now by fixing what I think to be a flaw.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)TheRainbowTurt1e said:

These mod packs are a complete rip off regardless if you make curated packs or not.

Players will always undercut the price of these mods and unless you sell these mods at max rank (which would be considered pay to win in my book) there's no way new players would even be able to use them without significant investment into the game, in which they'll probably earn these mods anyway.

Please for the love of god just scrap mod packs, along with credit and endo bundles, they are never worth the ridiculous amount of platinum, and as a guide I can never recommend these to players.

Evidently, the game is already pay to win, in your book. I could go buy a max rank mod right now.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

The entire "predatory" feel is the reason we're trying to have discussions to see how they can best be re-worked to become more helpful. The point of reviewing this and looking at feedback is so that the packs don't have the same feel in the future as they did in the past. 

Nothing has been set in stone as of this point. 

 

Wouldn't it be best to remove them for the time being until they can be implemented in a much better fashion?

Could've sworn that same idea was applied to something else that was actually an enjoyable part of the game....

Edited by Sean
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55 minutes ago, Sean said:

 

Wouldn't it be best to remove them for the time being until they can be implemented in a much better fashion?

Could've sworn that same idea was applied to something else that was actually an enjoyable part of the game....

Nah, it's more like that thing that's left in place in spite of less than one percent of players using it and persisting in spite of other more popular features getting removed.

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1 hour ago, Blackthorn66 said:

Evidently, the game is already pay to win, in your book. I could go buy a max rank mod right now.

Not Pay to Win, more like Pay to Skip. DE should have removed mod packs a long time ago, if they keep doing this they might fall into another Lootbox drama, because it’s basically gambling.

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3 hours ago, D20 said:

Reworking the whole market may even be a necessity at that point. There's just so much stuff that isn't right.

The pricing is off for some of the stuff. People don't mind keeping the "lights on" by paying, but the prices of some stuff in the shop is outdated.

When the game was NEW formas and cells and catalysts prices made sense. Now, it's impractical to buy them. Most of the weapons are JUST MR fodder.

I rather pay 200plat for REUSABLE boosts/upgrades, because the game is just going to KEEP adding characters/pets/sentinels/weapons.

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In my opinion, I am in favour of removing Mod packs and Relic packs from the market to Syndicates.

Syndicates such as Cetus, Solaris U, and Simaris/Sanctuary can add Mod packs to their offerings since they're more new-player oriented Syndicates, which are encountered as part of base progression anyway.

But if you're really adamant on keeping those pack types on the Marketplace, make them affordable with Ducats and credits, like Baro does, so you don't have the potential threat of government legal action, as witnessed with cases of lootboxes and things that function like 'pay to roll dice, receive random item(s)'.

Short version:
-Change plat price to Ducat + credit price.
-Add to Ostron, Solaris U, and Simaris rep.

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Hi.

I also feel that this may be a big issue for new players.
If I had bought some of those items at the beginning and then understood what it meant, I may have felt a bit cheated and maybe even quit the game.

At this point I trust DE and I'm convinced that being "predatory" on beginners is not your mentality, that's why you removed the paid lives + random kubrow patterns.

But a lot of the market feels dated from your umble beginnings, when you didn't know how to monetize right  (see the plat price for genetic imprints templates for instance).
I agree that some of those items should simply NOT have a platinum price.

I've also complained in the past that the market shows by default the platinum purchase and you have to click a button to be able to buy the credits counterpart.

As for things like credits or endo, I would say "why not" but clearly it should be on par with the actual game.
When you can go in Index and get 300K in 5 minutes, buying it for plat should at least be for a million and be around 5 or 10 plat.
Same goes for endo (like 10K for 10 plat)

I can also agree that mod packs should just be removed.

I can understand DE's logic but as stated already, since mods can be traded, players will adapt to it and make those packs obsolete again, whatever they contain
(unless you sell them for 5 plat with 5 rare mods! + boosters or stuff like that)

The market overhaul should really be more than just the mod packs, that's for sure.
But I (we?) trust you ^^

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14 hours ago, Nomicakes said:

I'm concerned that not only do you admit they're predatory, but your stated goal with the changes is to... target them more toward new players? Who won't be familiar with the player-to-player trade system, where they could get these mods cheaper.

No matter what mods you put in those packs, people will undercut it. You're putting effort toward a fruitless endeavor.

Hell, no matter what mods you think these newbies will fall for, I will be ready to hand them out for free as I always have to new players.

There was a time DE understood the generosity of its community.

Just to nitpick here, "predatory" was in quotes. Its not an admission rather an acknowledgement of how some others view them.

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Posted (edited)

DE needs to seriously rethink their entire business model on this game moving forward!

There is a strong movement going on now here in the West, against Predatory Cash shops, Pay 2 Win / Pay 2 Advance (whatever slang you want to give it), RNG loot (gamble) boxes, etc.

More and more gamers (and even politicians in various countries) are starting to get fed up being nickel and dimed for everything in today's so called F2P and even B2P games. See huge backlash companies like EA, 2K and Activision have faced last two years.

Hell, even Apple was sued via Class Action and eventually forced to change Free to Play description on games and apps in the App Store to Free to Start. Since nothing is really free, except the Sun that comes up in the East every morning.

The F2P concept in Warframe has become outdated and the current trend you see today is more towards "Cosmetic" Micro Transactions in games like Fortnite, Path of Exile and Overwatch for example.

The proof is there in the financial numbers! When done right and priced right, people spend billions a year on cosmetic items. I am one of them. I gladly support a good game with cosmetic cash shop. When the game is fun to play, without insane artificial grind walls to force you into a Cash Shop, I gladly spend money on cool cosmetic items to support the Devs!

When your Monetization Model no longer needs to compete on what can be earned and traded in-game, you can focus on bringing the actual "Fun" back in the game.

There won't be any need anymore for ridiculous grind walls and very punishing RNG, so players are pushed to the Platinum Market.

You can create so many cool cosmetic items like Warframe and Weapon skins, interior decoration items for Orbiter and Dojo's, Kuvat and Kubrow skins, etc. All stuff people will be lining up for to spend money on (again...when priced right!).

You clearly have the artistic talent in-house to pull it off. Seeing the awesome designs of many current Warframes and weapons.

This would be a much better approach into the future of Warframe.

My 2 cents.

Edited by Jeronan

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I agree strongly with the first two posts on this thread especially: Mod packs are currently a noob trap, but on top of that the market has aged imperfectly over time, and so in a way that doesn't put Warframe in the best light, when in practice the game is actually refreshingly honest and full of amazing content that players genuinely enjoy purchasing with their money, especially when compared to the abysmal standards for microtransactions in today's gaming market.

Once upon a time, back when Warframe was a fledgling game that was short on content but big on ambition, it made sense to establish a monetization model based primarily on grinding, because it was a cheap way of extending player commitment. It probably also made sense to have mod packs for Mods 1.0, or Orokin Cell blueprints for 100 plat when those things were still scarce. However, the game has evolved significantly since then: not only have many systems undergone significant reworks (including mods), players themselves have come to expect a higher standard of quality. At this point, there is so much content on offer, including a plethora of high-quality cosmetics that are one of the main reasons Warframe is so famous in the world of gaming, that it really doesn't feel like the game has to force such an intense grind upon players. Moreover, some current aspects of monetization are probably doing more harm than good: a player who buys a mod pack, only to realize that none of the mods they received were rare or useful, may feel ripped off and quit the game right then. Many players will also likely be put off if they are pressured to put money into the game just to progress when they're just getting started, and more generally, tying monetization to in-game progression has become an increasingly unpalatable direction for players: the game is genuinely fun, and has far more replayability than it gets credit for, so there really is no reason to make players pay just to play less of the game, or balance portions of gameplay around being a chore just so players feel pushed to pay to bypass the grind.

Effectively, mod packs aren't just bad in the current Warframe because their contents are undesirable, they're bad because they're part of a larger, increasingly archaic monetization model that hinges upon the game forcing inconvenience, excessive slowness of progression and frustration upon the player, to the obvious detriment of its quality of design, just to make players pay for all that to go away. By all rights, players getting started in Warframe should have an accessible, clear, and enjoyable path to progression, one where they should never feel pressured to put money in the game just to advance properly, and if that kind of new player experience were achieved, there wouldn't be a demand for mod packs anyway. You could technically retune mod packs towards more advanced players looking to complete their collection, or quickly obtain a hard-to-find mod, but even then, player trading already exists for that, and the game still shouldn't have to force excessive grinding at any stage.

As for what the alternative should be, if mod packs and similar progression-based microtransactions get removed, I think the way forwards should be for DE to invest into producing more high-quality cosmetics, perhaps with even more player sourcing: players love cosmetics, and there is a large community of artists who make cosmetics for the game, many of which equal or exceed DE's own cosmetics in quality and player demand. Additionally, the developers are already onboarding members of the community for their in-house cosmetics as well, as noted by Liger's contributions to Nezha and Nidus deluxe (arguably two of the best deluxe skins ever released). Put simply, there's a ton of demand from players for more cosmetics, a ton of demand from content creators to be able to produce and sell more cosmetics, and a potentially massive amount of additional revenue to be made, if the current popularity of cosmetics is anything to go by: if DE took the time and effort to rework and expand their cosmetics pipeline, including Tennogen, so that many more fans could participate while maintaining equal or higher quality control, everybody would be happy. Because this kind of monetization would also hinge upon content that doesn't impact on standard gameplay or progression, it would also be a "clean" source of revenue, one that wouldn't rely upon the game engineering artificial scarcity or excessively slow progression to extract money from players, and so would reflect even more positively upon the game and DE. 

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Imo I think all resources, mod packs and credit packs should be removed from the market, alongside that, make it so the default preview of an item is the blueprint screen and not the plat screen. These 2 changes would remove any Pay2Win feels that noobies might get when looking at the market.

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Posted (edited)

Mod packs arn't the only poorly scaled item.

q2lTXiN.png

300 common (i mean uncommon I guess) resources for 30p? 50k credits from 50p when the lowest Index wager gets you double that. The control module that drops like water in the void. How can any new player accurately judge their worth without extensive wiki diving when pricing is adjusted by metrics in name only like common,uncommon,rare. Be it factually true or not as not all rares were created equal. Then Rush costs that are more than a item right from market.The whole market among other prices mechanics needs a shakedown.

Edited by Firetempest
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Not going to get into if the mod packs should be in or out.

But, if we are gonna have mod packs purchasable for starter players, I'd suggest that they not be random, and grouped together by their use

Base damage mods pack, includes serration, point blank, hornet strike and pressure point

Pet mod pack, includes link health, Link armour, link shields and maul.

Random mods is very bad, there are a ton of mods hardly ever used by the wider community, rare or not. If you spend plat to get these packs, you need to know what you are getting, cos getting mods which are essentially useless, or mods which require a bit of understanding to use properly isn't very encouraging for the new player experience

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We should not even be having a discussion on reworking these. We should be removing them.

Why are we even having this discussion? Is that chinese company telling you to do this? This isn't like you DE, c'mon!

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18 hours ago, [DE]Marcus said:

The entire "predatory" feel is the reason we're trying to have discussions to see how they can best be re-worked to become more helpful. The point of reviewing this and looking at feedback is so that the packs don't have the same feel in the future as they did in the past. 

Nothing has been set in stone as of this point. 

The issue really is the "loot box" feel to the mod packs, since you don't know what you're going to get and when you do see what you get 9/10 times you're disappointed with getting some mods you already have plenty of or mods that are so niche that they're unusable in many situations.

Targetting this towards new players would mean that you'd want to give them the basic mods required to get them to a point where they feel comfortable but not hand them everything. Things like base damage, the 4 elemental mods for each weapon type and the two crit and crit damage mods are pretty essential on most weapons. This would still mean they'd have to farm the 60/60 status elementals, multishot, and anything else themselves but it'd get them started.  You could charge 10p for each weapon type. That's not too bad for 7x essential early game mods. Sure they have other things to spend it on like slots etc but if they were to put say.. $5 into the game they could comfortably pick up all of them with change. That's not bad considering they're farmable mods. Could even throw in 3x other mods like fire rate or the 3x ips mods to round it out to be 10 mods for 10p. Could also do a warframe mod pack with vitality, steel fiber, redirection, streamline, intensify, flow, stretch, and energy siphon, since they're all pretty essential to get early on so you can start ranking them up. 

Targetting towards older players though, you'd want to either guarantee that unless you own all the mods that the mod packs would guarantee at least one mod you dont have, or you'd want to simply make the packs of the rare and hard to farm mods, even if you had to put the price up because of higher chance to get the things you need. 

 

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19 hours ago, (PS4)boilerhogbc said:

I don't doubt DE is planning on putting argon crystals in the market at some point!

Atleast for that it would make some sense for the people who are unlucky in the void but the others?

Selling nano-spores is a bad joke and those modpacks are the equilovent of scratch tickets.

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Things they should not sell on the market (aka things you can really obtain from most simple game play except for getting orokin reactors and catalyst, but they could just offer in game events more often for these, or as syndicate rewards etc): 

Resources (if they aren't going to sell all resources, don't sell any, my opinion)

Mod Packs (RNG/Gambling)

Credit conversion from plat (why is this a thing? "i gotta level up this primed mod but I'm out of credits!")

I am even for forma and catalysts/reactors not being available. 

 

Only things I think should be sold (things you can't get from just playing(besides weapons, warframes etc, you can build those, but with most of them easy to acquire, some more difficult) ):

Cosmetic Items (any and every)

Warframes

Weapons

Boosters 

Prime Access

Decorations (for those who like to decorate)

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Gee I hope nobody informs the EU that Warframe has a Loot Box system in EU countries.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Zahnny said:

I'm just gonna say it.

Modpacks are Loot boxes.

This... is true. Mod packs are obviously not the hyper-lucrative kinds of lootboxes many other games try to push, to the point of openly defying national law and basic ethics towards children in the name of profit (e.g. EA going against Belgium's lootbox ban), but technically they're still lootboxes, in that they're a microtransaction where the player pays real money for a random, unpredictable reward. As such, they also technically qualify as gambling. I don't think it's as serious as, say, lootboxes in many AAA games, as DE clearly isn't trying to force us to buy mod packs, and seems to have forgotten they existed entirely until recently, but it's still a pretty strong reason for DE to just remove mod packs from the game immediately, and then see what they may want to add as a replacement, if any.

Edited by Teridax68

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