Paorox

Have we gone a little too far chasing new frames?

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Ok, popular or unpopular, I think that what Gara, Kora, Garuda, Baruuk and a lots of other "new" frames showed us is clear: we have too many frames that do the same thing. I can't really blame DE nor everyone of the devs, but I think that there's a time when one should realize if what it's being baked in the owen is a new, exceptional form of superior nouvelle cuisine or just another pie like any other before. What I'm saying is that we need more originality, having more frames that basically are the same thing will not help. Why should I pick Gara over Frost, or any other frame over revenant (which imo was a total failure and first MR fodder frame of the game)? This comparison could go over and over and over and over, because if you played the game for a bit like I did, well, you know there are frames that are not just "similar" among each other. We can say anything, that we need more "options", but deep down we know that when we have a similar feel to the past using new content we're not using new content (feel free to disagree)

So, what's the point of all of this mess? Basically, it's not a rant, but a feedback, because I'm not liking what I'm seeing recently; the last true bit of an original concept lays within Octavia, a true monster of a frame, capable of literally anything, even slaying people while listening to Pumped Up kicks Octavia edition. What I'm saying is, we need a general rework to every frame, not a new warframe every now and then when we have for example Wukong, Atlas, Nyx (even after the rewrok, she's useless...we all know that, not even the "slow death amrch" mode can save her) and a bunch of old frames that are being ignored. Again, I'm not blaming them, but i do hope that they will notice how much potential we do have and stop making new frames if the old one are broken (and not in a positive or overpowered way, sadly)

Just to make an example, and since this section is dedicated to feedback, take Vauban into consideration; he is the supposed king of CC, yet he can't do it properly at all. The little patch he got so now Tesla can be charged, was it useful? Of course no, why should I use teslas over another build? Even the armor redux build is more ffective than zapping around foes  (which by the way is also pretty difficult since you have to charge tesla for it to be slightly effective, so after all that """""rework"""" gave something).This frame cannot survive in high end content by no means, not even with a 300% power strenght maxed range bastille that could hold over 20 enemies. And what about the 2nd? Again, a big no; those grenades are just for show, and I'm saying it as a former Vauban Main; the interesting thing about them is that at 200% strenght they can shred away a good percentage of armor (80% of armor with 200% strenght) but the funny fact is that not even this extremely powerful feat can save him in sorties, for example. One could argue about the fact that Vauban was made for defenses, and that would be absolutely true, but then again why should I pick him over a Frost? It's a personal matter preference at this point, one could say, and it would be again true, but when personal preference leads to Vauban, then what should one do? I think that is just unfair to have 2 (in the case of defenses we have about 15) choices if they cannot even be compared because one is weaker.

I think that I made clear my opinions at this point, so I won't go over. I just thought that someone should say what all of us think, soon or later, about the various frames options we have, but again, this is just a personal opinion, feel free to disagree, and I'll even say you have to, because I think that in a game with so much potential it's a pity to have clones when we could have instead a lot more. Thank you for your time

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26 minutes ago, Paorox said:

(which imo was a total failure and first MR fodder frame of the game

100% Agree. A terrible Warframe

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I Agree in something,the new frames are rarely especial and do things that other frames already do,nothing really that special

Its funny because they said they have lot of frames in mind.

I Rather prefer to Rework poor frames like Vauban or wukong,and change some totally useless or very situional passives Like Mag,Loki,Rhino,etc...

And yeah Revenant was a total rip off 

Its like Rhino,Mesa, and a gang of eidolons were mixed together with nyx...Thats how revenant was born.

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12 hours ago, -Sentient- said:

-Snip-

But since we got so many new Frames, DE might have to change the Mechanics of the older Frames so the newer Frames don’t become copies. Gara compared to Frost, Revenant compared to Nyx and Mesa, Garuda compared to Valkyr and maybe Saryn/Nidus, Baruuk compared to Limbo and Excal. The reason i didn’t put up Khora is i can’t think of a Frame that’s similar to her. Maybe Vauban but not 100% sure. I think it’s very easy for DE to make copy/paste without ignoring the Game’s main mechanics (so a completely new Frame). 

So DE would’ve to make every Frame works completely differently or make more Frames be completely different for this Game to avoid copy/paste abilities.

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Posted (edited)

Also dont be surprised if someone says "If you dont like it,dont play it"

there are lot of people who doesn't like change, specially in the Warframe community

Just look at the Loki "master race Veteran MLG endurance" people, I suggested some minor changes and QoL about loki and I got the same reply as above.

Edited by -Sentient-
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Il y a 1 heure, Paorox a dit :

Why should I pick Gara over Frost

If you play Gara like Frost then you are wrong. Deeply wrong. Maybe you don't understand the different frames as much as you are thinking.

Do your homework first.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

If you play Gara like Frost then you are wrong. Deeply wrong. Maybe you don't understand the different frames as much as you are thinking.

Do your homework first.

This. This guy Garas

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Yes, it's true some frames need a little love on their passives/abilities.
Titania, for example, has a rather useless passive with the trampolines. No-one's going out of their way to use them.
Zephyr, as much as people like her mobility, don't like how much control you lose due to her floatiness on in-door maps.
Banshee, while the innate silence is nice... there are better frames suited for stealth.
Loki, while a decent frame could use a better passive. No-one's making use of that extra wall-latch, let's be honest.

Just a few examples of what needs attention.

Frost and Gara, as you references are NOT "the same frame."

 

A couple of their abilities are similar in CONCEPT but not mechanically.
Frost's bubble stops bullets but does little against melee attackers unless the augment's on.
Frost's Avalanche is meant to deal damage and provides some crowd control in freezing enemies.

 

Gara's Mass Vitrify stops all enemy fire, holds back melee attackers (When the wall's properly set up)
and damages enemies when shattered with Lash, or when the shield breaks.
Mass Vitrify can be used for defense or offense depending on the Gara's build.
Spectrorage offers a different type of crowd control than Avalanche.
And Splinter Storm is a great survivability/damage ability when used correctly.


Played the same, they're almost the same. Mechanically, they're vastly different.

Moreso, maybe people like different designs of characters, different playstyles, and having multiple frames allows that.
You wanna play a frame whose power comes from being perpetually pissed-off past all forms of lamentation? Play Octavia? No, that's Valkyr!
Wanna play with the fantasy of dual-wielding hand-cannons (and now having an Old-West aesthetic with her Prime?) Play Mesa!
Release the Kraken and drown your enemies with Hydroid!
Lure your enemies around with a shiny metal ball while it bashes their eardrums out with Octavia.
Play a character who thrives on living on the edge and feeds off her enemy's life force? Garuda!
Like the aesthetic of a Huntress and her loyal pets? Khora and another Kavat!

There are dozens of ways to play these Frames too. That's the beauty of it. Options.

Take Warcraft for example. Say you rolled a Warlock. Your character is stuck as a Warlock with only three "specializations" , one armor class and choice of aesthetics.

 

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i already writed somewhere on forum, that i would like to see as operator, that we can crate your own Warframe from personal collection. That can you unlock on MR30, that would be good for everyone, maybe even for veterans. Imagine so many possibilities and builds. And ofc you can make only one for beginning. And upcoming warframes would have much bigger value. thats my imaginaton for this game. ☺

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Posted (edited)

In my opinion it would be better to create new abilities and improve outdated ones instead of new warframes with a fix set of abilities. An example for Garuda:

Her 1st ability and skin would fit Valkyr and the 3th and 4th could be an alternative effect for Ash´s Teleport and Bladestorm

Same thing for prime Warframes. I was never a fan of the idea to create a complete new Warframe with minor differences. Instead I wish they would have implemented something like a way to upgrade your originals to an empowered version. You could build the Neuroptics and immediatly use them to replace the old one (like in  the megaman x series). And since prime parts increase base values they would be different from mods as well. In addition to the upgrades you get the skin from the Neuroptics and Chassis parts respectively.

This system could be enhanced with different themes like immortal, umbral and a new "incarnation" set (which alters the theme a little bit: Garuda as a skin on Valkyr) in the future. They don´t need to be a straight upgrade but parts with alternative base stat distribution, skins and animations.

 

Edited by Arcira
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I wanna second the guy who said operator having Warframe abilities would be cool. I've long thought that the operator not having a use for the ability menu was a waste. Even if you could only pick one frame and have those four abilities on your void kid, it would still open up more possibilities. My example is having Trinity on your operator so you can get some quick heals when you desperately need them, but play Inaros for the unstoppable tank role.

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1 hour ago, CrystalWitch said:

Yes, it's true some frames need a little love on their passives/abilities.
Titania, for example, has a rather useless passive with the trampolines. No-one's going out of their way to use them.
Zephyr, as much as people like her mobility, don't like how much control you lose due to her floatiness on in-door maps.
Banshee, while the innate silence is nice... there are better frames suited for stealth.
Loki, while a decent frame could use a better passive. No-one's making use of that extra wall-latch, let's be honest.

Just a few examples of what needs attention.

Frost and Gara, as you references are NOT "the same frame."

 

A couple of their abilities are similar in CONCEPT but not mechanically.
Frost's bubble stops bullets but does little against melee attackers unless the augment's on.
Frost's Avalanche is meant to deal damage and provides some crowd control in freezing enemies.

 

Gara's Mass Vitrify stops all enemy fire, holds back melee attackers (When the wall's properly set up)
and damages enemies when shattered with Lash, or when the shield breaks.
Mass Vitrify can be used for defense or offense depending on the Gara's build.
Spectrorage offers a different type of crowd control than Avalanche.
And Splinter Storm is a great survivability/damage ability when used correctly.


Played the same, they're almost the same. Mechanically, they're vastly different.

Moreso, maybe people like different designs of characters, different playstyles, and having multiple frames allows that.
You wanna play a frame whose power comes from being perpetually pissed-off past all forms of lamentation? Play Octavia? No, that's Valkyr!
Wanna play with the fantasy of dual-wielding hand-cannons (and now having an Old-West aesthetic with her Prime?) Play Mesa!
Release the Kraken and drown your enemies with Hydroid!
Lure your enemies around with a shiny metal ball while it bashes their eardrums out with Octavia.
Play a character who thrives on living on the edge and feeds off her enemy's life force? Garuda!
Like the aesthetic of a Huntress and her loyal pets? Khora and another Kavat!

There are dozens of ways to play these Frames too. That's the beauty of it. Options.

Take Warcraft for example. Say you rolled a Warlock. Your character is stuck as a Warlock with only three "specializations" , one armor class and choice of aesthetics.

 

I Swear when I suggested to change Loki passive everyone went to me and said 

"Oh you just dont know how to use him! hes top tier! and i like to wall latch in infested missions!!!!"

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il y a 6 minutes, -Sentient- a dit :

hes top tier!

And top tier he is.

Not for everything but what he's good in he is GOD in it.

I still just have the basic one with no potato on it and I'm still cheesing sorties with him. No crouching gymnastic, no limitations to movements, just speed run using parkour and invisibility when not alone and that's it. Top tier.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Paorox:

Gara over Frost, or any other frame over revenant (which imo was a total failure and first MR fodder frame of the game)?

And this is where I stopped reading. If you can't even tell the differences between Frost and Gara and think the latter is MR fodder you clearly are not qualified to create topics like this in the first place.

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6 minutes ago, Xhobract said:

And this is where I stopped reading. If you can't even tell the differences between Frost and Gara and think the latter is MR fodder you clearly are not qualified to create topics like this in the first place.

"This frame has a shield ability."
"This other frame also has a shield ability."
TOTALLY THE SAME!
 

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34 minutes ago, (PS4)Herrwann69 said:

And top tier he is.

Not for everything but what he's good in he is GOD in it.

I still just have the basic one with no potato on it and I'm still cheesing sorties with him. No crouching gymnastic, no limitations to movements, just speed run using parkour and invisibility when not alone and that's it. Top tier.

But that doesn't mean his passive is Good

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22 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

But that doesn't mean his passive is Good

I agree, his passive isn't in damn-near any practical situation "good"

What he was saying though, was that - even with the passive that feels tacked on at the last second, Loki's a great Frame for what he's good at.
Could he definitely use a better passive? Most certainly, but past that, he's a worthwhile investment.

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Some thoughts on this:

  • There inevitably comes a point where different characters in a game will start to overlap: There are only so many unique things one can do, and even in a game like Warframe, unless the designers start going the way of MOBAs and designing convoluted systemic minigames for each new frame (I hope not), there comes a point where your characters are going to start having some similarities, at least by the standards of a game where you could once clearly label a frame as "the crowd control frame" or "the healer frame", or any similarly broad archetype.
  • Several recent frames have been lacking in original design: I'm mainly thinking Khora and Revenant, but even Gara and Garuda have some effects that don't feel like there was all that much effort put into finding something new. I blame PoE and Fortuna for shifting resources away from warframe development, but either way, the end result is that many recent warframes I think have come across as much more cookie-cutter, doing many of the same things (e.g. damage, durability, crowd control), and sometimes in the same way (Garuda's 4 during development was basically a clone of Revenant's 4). Because we've experienced several new frames that have been mediocre, or at least not as stand-out as, say, Harrow or Nidus, I think many of us here have also bought into the idea that DE have run out of ideas for new gameplay on frames, though I believe that's far from true.
  • The current meta makes design far more reductive than it could be: Currently, the metagame in Warframe focuses almost exclusively around two things: damage and durability. Crowd control comes in handy, but right now frames are judged almost purely by their ability to output and survive high damage, usually against large crowds of enemies at a time, which I think causes many frames that would normally be distinct to blend into each other in this context. Titania, for example, has incredible single-target DPS, but there are so few situations out there that require it, and also give her room to maneuver without dying near-instantly, that she fades into the background for most people.
  • DE's move towards more versatile kits generates more overlap: Whereas older frames tend to be hyper-specialized, and have immense amounts of power in one aspect while having next to none in another (e.g. Nyx, queen of crowd control with little to no real damage of her own, at least not until her recent rework), more recent frames are usually designed to be more versatile, and are given decent amounts of damage, crowd control, survivability, utility, and so on, all at once. While this has created some very unique frames (again, Harrow and Nidus are both versatile and self-sufficient, while also playing differently from almost any other frame), in the case of more recent frames, which have been designed along these lines, I feel that kind of designed has contributed somewhat to their homogenization.

Basically, no game can keep producing totally unique characters forever, but I think Warframe still has much more room for frames that stand out from each other; it's just that our most recent releases haven't really been amazing for originality of playstyles. It's good that DE are making warframes more versatile, but I think they need to be careful not to give each new frame the same tools, or at least not make them do the same things in the same ways.

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Posted (edited)

Anyone that claims Revenant is MR fodder or trash has yet to learn the game. Period.

OP, you do have some valid points to which i can agree with some of them but that one sentence of Rev being the first and only MR fodder in the game discredits the whole thing again. Yes, thrall is not the most useful thing for most of your content. But invincibility, scaling dmg and room sweep in one is the complete opposite of what you had described. You might not like him but you're objectively wrong to claim that he's the worst.

Grineer sortie 1 defense as Revenant:

Spoiler

unknown.png

 

Edited by IceColdHawk
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vor 9 Stunden schrieb GPrime96:

When i read this Sentence, i had to laugh.

But since we got so many new Frames, DE might have to change the Mechanics of the older Frames so the newer Frames don’t become copies. Gara compared to Frost, Revenant compared to Nyx and Mesa, Garuda compared to Valkyr and maybe Saryn/Nidus, Baruuk compared to Limbo and Excal. The reason i didn’t put up Khora is i can’t think of a Frame that’s similar to her. Maybe Vauban but not 100% sure. I think it’s very easy for DE to make copy/paste without ignoring the Game’s main mechanics (so a completely new Frame). 

So DE would’ve to make every Frame works completely differently or make more Frames be completely different for this Game to avoid copy/paste abilities.

Baruuk compared to Limbo 😂 

Baruuk is nowhere near as bad as limbo 

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Posted (edited)

I agree to disagree.

Gara has a completely different kit than Frost; while Frost is focussing on slowing enemies down, so you can reduce their numbers more easily, Gara focusses on reducing the incoming damage on multiple single targets while turning the defense into offense - her 2nd ability is extremely versatile. Cast it on the sortie operator and enjoy a huge benefit that Frost is not going to offer, while as Frost is able to keep infested off your defense point from far away with the augment for his 2nd ability. Btw, Gara's augment lets you heal allies as well as defense targets.

I'm not going to write down the themes of all of the above mentioned frames but I do think that we don't have anything like Garuda's healing altars or straight 100% kill mechanics when a certain threshold is met. Every single frame has its theme, even if it looks similar, at best, they do follow their own spins which makes their skills work different. And no, Revenant does not work like Nyx. I can understand that reading the respective skills of all Warframes would make one think that they do the same, but they do play out completely different in almost every single case.

Edited by StratosOmega
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Lets pick this apart. I agree 100% we need to reworkd older frames. Vabuan needs some love, Wukong and others. That is fine. Where I disagree is to say new frames are like the old ones.  Lets do you comparisons. Frost can play agro with his ice wave or he can play kore defensive with his sno globe. Frost likes to set up and have enemies come to him and fight him where he has the advantage. With ice, he hinders and protects. Gara, whilst having a defensive tool(two actually) does not play anyway like Frost. She likes to take the fight to the enemies bolstering her defense which is her best offense. With glass, she mezmerizes and strikes. They play completely different from each other as their kit intents. Khora and Garyda shouldnt even be mentioned in this post. Their gameplay is completely unique with Khora controlling space, going on the offensive, and massive utility from her Kavat. Garuda is a pure survial frame with many ways to increase damage and lacerate her enemies whilst sustain herself easily. Baruum shouldnt be here either where he introduces a new playstyle revolting around not fighting and a passive that promotes the use of all abilites and rather well thought out ultimate. But of course this is observation formed into opinion. As for Revenent, I can tell you are a bitesize player. It is not inherently a bad thing but it is not healthy either for the game in general. Revenent shines when he is alone and can manage his abilies in a setting he controls. He is the only warframe I know who can facilitate standing and shooting whilst having abikity damage to mix up his gameoly and sustain to boot. I feel most of criticism comes from not stress testing warframes. I feel as though you are grazing the surface of everything and not taking the time to go deeper maybe you havent even played some of these frames. I wouldnt doubt it.  I recommend trying to get to know these frame better. I did, and I understood the game better. Also, taking from a Nezha main. They will rework Vabaun. Trust. Each warframe has 3 stages. Bad, okay, and very good. Or they have two. Okay and very good. Vabaun along with Wukong and others are in the bad section. Ember Nyx and titania are in the okay section. It is part of a warframe's life. Change will come to pass. Look at Nezha, Oberon, Sayrn. They show that things will get better. Trying to go deeper in your gameplay and maybe your opins will change!

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14 hours ago, Paorox said:

Ok, popular or unpopular, I think that what Gara, Kora, Garuda, Baruuk and a lots of other "new" frames showed us is clear: we have too many frames that do the same thing. I can't really blame DE nor everyone of the devs, but I think that there's a time when one should realize if what it's being baked in the owen is a new, exceptional form of superior nouvelle cuisine or just another pie like any other before. What I'm saying is that we need more originality, having more frames that basically are the same thing will not help. Why should I pick Gara over Frost, or any other frame over revenant (which imo was a total failure and first MR fodder frame of the game)? This comparison could go over and over and over and over, because if you played the game for a bit like I did, well, you know there are frames that are not just "similar" among each other. We can say anything, that we need more "options", but deep down we know that when we have a similar feel to the past using new content we're not using new content (feel free to disagree)

So, what's the point of all of this mess? Basically, it's not a rant, but a feedback, because I'm not liking what I'm seeing recently; the last true bit of an original concept lays within Octavia, a true monster of a frame, capable of literally anything, even slaying people while listening to Pumped Up kicks Octavia edition. What I'm saying is, we need a general rework to every frame, not a new warframe every now and then when we have for example Wukong, Atlas, Nyx (even after the rewrok, she's useless...we all know that, not even the "slow death amrch" mode can save her) and a bunch of old frames that are being ignored. Again, I'm not blaming them, but i do hope that they will notice how much potential we do have and stop making new frames if the old one are broken (and not in a positive or overpowered way, sadly)

Just to make an example, and since this section is dedicated to feedback, take Vauban into consideration; he is the supposed king of CC, yet he can't do it properly at all. The little patch he got so now Tesla can be charged, was it useful? Of course no, why should I use teslas over another build? Even the armor redux build is more ffective than zapping around foes  (which by the way is also pretty difficult since you have to charge tesla for it to be slightly effective, so after all that """""rework"""" gave something).This frame cannot survive in high end content by no means, not even with a 300% power strenght maxed range bastille that could hold over 20 enemies. And what about the 2nd? Again, a big no; those grenades are just for show, and I'm saying it as a former Vauban Main; the interesting thing about them is that at 200% strenght they can shred away a good percentage of armor (80% of armor with 200% strenght) but the funny fact is that not even this extremely powerful feat can save him in sorties, for example. One could argue about the fact that Vauban was made for defenses, and that would be absolutely true, but then again why should I pick him over a Frost? It's a personal matter preference at this point, one could say, and it would be again true, but when personal preference leads to Vauban, then what should one do? I think that is just unfair to have 2 (in the case of defenses we have about 15) choices if they cannot even be compared because one is weaker.

I think that I made clear my opinions at this point, so I won't go over. I just thought that someone should say what all of us think, soon or later, about the various frames options we have, but again, this is just a personal opinion, feel free to disagree, and I'll even say you have to, because I think that in a game with so much potential it's a pity to have clones when we could have instead a lot more. Thank you for your time

Hmm all i can said is "U still got a long way to go"... It true some Warframe need love but if u said some Warframe is same i had to disagree.. Different Frame got Different Playstyle, Different build give Frame Different Playstyle i dun see any Frame is same...

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3 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Anyone that claims Revenant is MR fodder or trash has yet to learn the game. Period.

Revenant is a disgusting and useless mess. I dare to say that even Wukong is more useful than him.

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