Have we gone a little too far chasing new frames?

[MJ12]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Some thoughts on this:

• There inevitably comes a point where different characters in a game will start to overlap: There are only so many unique things one can do, and even in a game like Warframe, unless the designers start going the way of MOBAs and designing convoluted systemic minigames for each new frame (I hope not), there comes a point where your characters are going to start having some similarities, at least by the standards of a game where you could once clearly label a frame as "the crowd control frame" or "the healer frame", or any similarly broad archetype.
• Several recent frames have been lacking in original design: I'm mainly thinking Khora and Revenant, but even Gara and Garuda have some effects that don't feel like there was all that much effort put into finding something new. I blame PoE and Fortuna for shifting resources away from warframe development, but either way, the end result is that many recent warframes I think have come across as much more cookie-cutter, doing many of the same things (e.g. damage, durability, crowd control), and sometimes in the same way (Garuda's 4 during development was basically a clone of Revenant's 4). Because we've experienced several new frames that have been mediocre, or at least not as stand-out as, say, Harrow or Nidus, I think many of us here have also bought into the idea that DE have run out of ideas for new gameplay on frames, though I believe that's far from true.
• The current meta makes design far more reductive than it could be: Currently, the metagame in Warframe focuses almost exclusively around two things: damage and durability. Crowd control comes in handy, but right now frames are judged almost purely by their ability to output and survive high damage, usually against large crowds of enemies at a time, which I think causes many frames that would normally be distinct to blend into each other in this context. Titania, for example, has incredible single-target DPS, but there are so few situations out there that require it, and also give her room to maneuver without dying near-instantly, that she fades into the background for most people.
• DE's move towards more versatile kits generates more overlap: Whereas older frames tend to be hyper-specialized, and have immense amounts of power in one aspect while having next to none in another (e.g. Nyx, queen of crowd control with little to no real damage of her own, at least not until her recent rework), more recent frames are usually designed to be more versatile, and are given decent amounts of damage, crowd control, survivability, utility, and so on, all at once. While this has created some very unique frames (again, Harrow and Nidus are both versatile and self-sufficient, while also playing differently from almost any other frame), in the case of more recent frames, which have been designed along these lines, I feel that kind of designed has contributed somewhat to their homogenization.

Basically, no game can keep producing totally unique characters forever, but I think Warframe still has much more room for frames that stand out from each other; it's just that our most recent releases haven't really been amazing for originality of playstyles. It's good that DE are making warframes more versatile, but I think they need to be careful not to give each new frame the same tools, or at least not make them do the same things in the same ways.

My thought on your post is this:

I would prefer Warframes play differently. But if two Warframes play fairly similarly, so long as they have unique visual styles and some differences in playstyle (even if minor) it's not the end of the world. And a new Warframe is a new Warframe. To some extent, with the siloing of Warframe acquisition to certain areas or gamemodes you might not like, the latter isn't a bad thing because it means you can get a 'close-enough' equivalent to another Warframe even if you loathe the gamemode in which said Warframe drops.

Now, obviously we shouldn't get total retreads of content all the time, but also, getting a 'similar but not identical' bit of new content isn't a bad thing. The question is what mix you want of the two.

[CapturedFire]

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Revenant is a disgusting and useless mess. I dare to say that even Wukong is more useful than him.

Sounds like someone is salty from being picked up by a revenant surrounded by his hordes of ghost buddies and then being given a tonne of overshields by the revenant turning into a discoball and steaming off on a mass murdering spree one to many times

Edited January 9, 2019 by CapturedFire
Spelling correction

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

I think the biggest problem many people see is that expect every frame to be 100% unique in ever aspect and thats just not possible.

 

Warframes are becoming more like characters from a moba, set abilities and playstyles that let them stay unique, but similar enough to other frames to fit a category.  For instance, Rhino and Chroma are both tanks, but they tank in different ways. Likewise, frost/limbo/gara are all defensive frames, but are unique enough in theme and ability synergy that while they may have some gameplay similarities, they are still different and useable.   

[Fallen_Echo]

44 minutes ago, CapturedFire said:

Sounds like someone is salty from being picked up by a revenant surrounded by his hordes of ghost buddies and then being given a tonne of overshields by the revenant turning into a discoball and steaming off on a mass murdering spree one to many times

What hordes of ghosts? They are mass obliterated faster than he can create them, shields are generally useless and if i would want tons of overshields i would ask a mag to do her thing.

The glorious disco ball is the only thing he has going for him and even that is not a great skill but only an okay one.

[IceColdHawk]

6 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Revenant is a disgusting and useless mess. I dare to say that even Wukong is more useful than him.

I really can't tell if you're getting paid for saying this. I'm genuinely trying to understand what problem people seem to have with Revenant.

And i'm the last person in here that would defend useless or weak frames.

[-Sentient-]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

I really can't tell if you're getting paid for saying this. I'm genuinely trying to understand what problem people seem to have with Revenant.

And i'm the last person in here that would defend useless or weak frames.

I also think Revenant is good,but he needs some buffs to mesmer skin

And please...a speed buff for the casting animation 

 

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

10 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Anyone that claims Revenant is MR fodder or trash has yet to learn the game. Period.

OP, you do have some valid points to which i can agree with some of them but that one sentence of Rev being the first and only MR fodder in the game discredits the whole thing again. Yes, thrall is not the most useful thing for most of your content. But invincibility, scaling dmg and room sweep in one is the complete opposite of what you had described. You might not like him but you're objectively wrong to claim that he's the worst.

Grineer sortie 1 defense as Revenant:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Revenant has 2 good abilities.  his mesmer skin and his danse.  mesmer skin is so good that it makes both his passive and reave redundant because he won't take damage.  Danse has to be heavily formaed to be considered worth the cost.  And even then there are much better damage based ults.  When people call revenant trash they're not stating he can't do work.  They're stating there is no factual reason to pick him over anyone else.  Several frames out there can be absurdly survivable through direct or indirect means.  And several frames are good at mass killing.  There isn't anything unique about him.  It doesn't help that his kit is based around creating thralls.  But the thralls themselves have no value dead or alive.

Every current weapon and warframe can be used in sortie level with the right setup.  That's not the ceiling anymore for equipment worth.  That's the bar that everything at minimum has to meet.  I personally don't subscribe to the mindset/play style of optimal behavior as no content demands it.  That being said my issue with Rev isn't his thralls being bad.  It's that thematically he's a mess.  Which makes it hard to fix him.  Nothing about the thralls is sentient themed.  Neither is reave.  Both are tacked on still from back when he was more vampire themed.  But the devs have since moved from that and primarily consider him to be a sentient frame.  It's entirely possible to service his kit as is right now without making new abilities.  But i'd rather they just take him back to the drawing board.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

To the OP:

I would disagree that octavia was the last truly unique warframe.  Inevitably frames are going to be similar to each other and this has been happening much before octavia.  Nyx/loki for instance fought each other in terms of being the best cc way back in the day.  The goal is not to be unique for the sake of unique but rather to have each frame take a different approach to a particular style of play or job.

For instance Gara and Frost.  Both defend objectives.  Both have ways to kill/cc enemies.  But they do it differently.  Frost is more of a static guard point.  Gara instead is more of a flexible mobile defender.  Frost can make multiple bubbles to defend multiple points but those are pretty not offensive.  Gara can drop her damage reduction on all friendlies.  So she defends them in a mobile fashion.  etc.

The only "new" frame I can say of late that's not really unique/adding to play styles is revenant.  Before him i'd say titania.

[IceColdHawk]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Revenant has 2 good abilities.  his mesmer skin and his danse.  mesmer skin is so good that it makes both his passive and reave redundant because he won't take damage.  Danse has to be heavily formaed to be considered worth the cost.  And even then there are much better damage based ults.  When people call revenant trash they're not stating he can't do work.  They're stating there is no factual reason to pick him over anyone else.  Several frames out there can be absurdly survivable through direct or indirect means.  And several frames are good at mass killing.  There isn't anything unique about him.  It doesn't help that his kit is based around creating thralls.  But the thralls themselves have no value dead or alive.

It's not that people claim he isn't the best, people pull out the greatest hyperboles and claim he's the worst. Now this is just insanity right there. Hydroid, Wukong, Khora, Baruuk, Garuda, Atlas. Just to name a few frames being so much worse than him. Yes, you might be able to facetank enemies endlessly with a well-built adaptation/grace Inaros against up to level 100 enemies. But can Inaros clear a room? Or can Inaros stand up to endurance runs, should you opt to do them? Why is it such a crime to have frames be viable for endurance? Back in my day, people loved when frames SCALED.

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 Every current weapon and warframe can be used in sortie level with the right setup.  That's not the ceiling anymore for equipment worth.  That's the bar that everything at minimum has to meet.  I personally don't subscribe to the mindset/play style of optimal behavior as no content demands it.  That being said my issue with Rev isn't his thralls being bad.  It's that thematically he's a mess.  Which makes it hard to fix him.  Nothing about the thralls is sentient themed.  Neither is reave.  Both are tacked on still from back when he was more vampire themed.  But the devs have since moved from that and primarily consider him to be a sentient frame.  It's entirely possible to service his kit as is right now without making new abilities.  But i'd rather they just take him back to the drawing board.

I'd like to know what people mean by "Sentient theme". Is it spinning like a tornado? Or a built-in adaptation? What is it and how would you define a frame designed around that theme? I don't think we know enough about sentients to be able to claim if something is sentient-themed or not. Feel free to correct me.

Edited January 9, 2019 by IceColdHawk

[DeMonkey]

7 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Revenant is a disgusting and useless mess. I dare to say that even Wukong is more useful than him.

Not sure why you'd "dare" to say such a thing when anyone with a brain knows it to be false. What do you hope to prove with such a "dare"?

[ErinaAlda]

I think the OP has a serious bias problem before the facts, Why pick Gara over Frost? while the snow glow is a favored defensive option over the glass wall Gara can make Frost cant make a shield of ice shards around himself and burst his snow globe into it Gara on the other hand with her glass shards which give a damage reduction also gains attack power every time you smash he wall into it TL:DR Gara is a superior brawler frame while frost is not a brawler in the slightest. This is but one point I can make I for one think Khora is garbage but people are using her matter of fact getting some decent gameplay out of her to the point people think Khora is better then Revenant which I don't even... 

 

I don't disagree that some of the design in the newer frames is a rehash of older frames that can do a better job in some areas but it is not what the frame is "designed" to do its what players can make them do when they get their hands on them and if what they make them do is at all viable in the content they do or fun to use. 

[(XBOX)Skiller115]

Rev bad? Lol do you guys use the same strategy and build with every frame in the game? And Gara the same as Frost? Lmao Gara is a God compared to Frost Frost can only camp in his little globe Gara can nuke a map when she grows tired of her wall! While being able to tank hardcore while having more DPS than God himself!

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

4 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

It's not that people claim he isn't the best, people pull out the greatest hyperboles and claim he's the worst. Now this is just insanity right there. Hydroid, Wukong, Khora, Baruuk, Garuda, Atlas. Just to name a few frames being so much worse than him. Yes, you might be able to facetank enemies endlessly with a well-built adaptation/grace Inaros against up to level 100 enemies. But can Inaros clear a room? Or can Inaros stand up to endurance runs, should you opt to do them? Why is it such a crime to have frames be viable for endurance? Back in my day, people loved when frames SCALED.

Khora, garuda, and baruuk are not worse than him.  I already explained why he's considered bad.

Quote

I'd like to know what people mean by "Sentient theme". Is it spinning like a tornado? Or a built-in adaptation? What is it and how would you define a frame designed around that theme? I don't think we know enough about sentients to be able to claim if something is sentient-themed or not. Feel free to correct me.

We have sentient enemies.  The only remotely similar ability he has to known sentient abilities is his 4.  Except their beams come from above them and not from their fingers.  Mesmer skin is sort of akin to sentinets as their noted for having really good/adaptable defenses.  But I personally would have done differently.  That's a pretty cop out response. You seem to be taking personal offense to anyone who says anything negative about revenant.  The fact that you cited a sortie mission as evidence should have been the red flag for me.

Again.  Rev is completely viable at any piece of content.  He has two good abilities.  Neither fact as is makes him a great warframe let alone a good one.  If you love him that's fine.  No one is slating you for liking a frame.  Something can be bad and still enjoyed.  As well as something that can do good also have bad aspects about them.  Revenant has flaws both ability wise and conceptually due to thematic reasons.

Edited January 10, 2019 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[Leuca]

I want 2019 to be the year of going back and improving existing frames.

[-Sentient-]

11 minutes ago, Leuca said:

I want 2019 to be the year of going back and improving existing frames.

Its funny because,people during 2018 where complaining about DE fixing stuff instead of adding, now it seems people doesn't want stuff 

[GPrime96]

15 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

Its funny because,people during 2018 where complaining about DE fixing stuff instead of adding, now it seems people doesn't want stuff 

After Gara, Khora, Revenant, Garuda, Baruuk, and Fortuna, the Players definitely had enough.

[Fallen_Echo]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Not sure why you'd "dare" to say such a thing when anyone with a brain knows it to be false. What do you hope to prove with such a "dare"?

9 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I really can't tell if you're getting paid for saying this. I'm genuinely trying to understand what problem people seem to have with Revenant.

And i'm the last person in here that would defend useless or weak frames.

Okay, i have exaggerated that but in all honesty revenant is the first frame i had considered as an mr fodder.

 

Lets go on with the list:

The passive sounds useful on paper but in gameplay its unnoticable to the degree i was tempted to report it as a bug.

 

We have a first skill what inherited every single problem from nyx mindcontrol while also making sure that the thralls cant survive long enough to probide any use. The pillars could be a great tool of dealing with hordes but due to the AI's shenigans you have zero control over where will they "deploy".

The synergy with mesmer skin is nice thought it doesnt really help any of the problems, the synergy with reave sounds great but costs too much and its efficiency is questionable, the danse synergy gives overshields in a game where shields are widely considered useless.

 

Mesmer skin is a limited use defense ability. The reflected damage part is useless due to enemy health/damage ratios. On its own it can deflect maximum 25 attacks but does not help against enviromental damage. The synergy with reave is nice but once again costs too much.

Overall this is a nice skill.

 

Reave is a basic dash skill. The base drain is negligible but with synergy it costs too much to use.

 

Danse macabre deals nice adopting damage but has aiming problems and inconsistent damage due to the animation it has. This skill has the highest energy drain in the game while its still not the most dangerous. Barely useable against the infested. The synergy with mesmer skin is nice but the synergy with everything else is either too costy or negligible. Has the same punchthrought issues as everything ingame with the grineer.

This one is a bland but acceptable skill.

 

On overall i barely see any reason to use revenant at all, in any time.

 

[Elementalos]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Revenant has 2 good abilities. 

To be fair, that's not really all that odd for Warframe.

Even high powered frames like Mesa have bad skills in their kit.

Banshee's basically a one button frame and is still considered pretty good.

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, -Sentient- said:

Its funny because,people during 2018 where complaining about DE fixing stuff instead of adding, now it seems people doesn't want stuff 

There will always be one group of players who want old content to be reworked and another group of players who would rather have new content instead. No matter what DE does, someone's wants and needs aren't going to be addressed. 

10 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I'm genuinely trying to understand what problem people seem to have with Revenant.

He has two abilities that are straight-up bad, two that are arguably outclassed by other abilities like them, and on top of that, he has bland gameplay and a really messy and incoherent theme. That's not to say that he's unplayable, but most of the other tank Warframes are simultaneously more powerful and more interesting than Revenant. 

[Femuru]

agreed tho im not entirely asking for them to stop making new frames, i atleast wish they take their time making them. id prefer a old frame getting a good rework over a new meh frame even if its good OR i atleast wish they release a new frame alot later but more polished not only in abilities but story/quest wise as well. we havent had much frames with their own quest and even tho alot of ppl already talked about this too but where are the prime trailers? i get alot of ppl are looking for more content but pretty sure even most the ppl who want new content would agree that a mountain of new warframes wont fill that void while there are a small chunk of ppl who say new warframes isnt new content but rather just new toys that not everyone going to be excited for. seeing new warframes less frequent but in a more polished way again by abilities and by story imo is probly alot better for it to have more of a impact rather than ppl just grab it to probly barely use it anymore after a week or 2.

Edited January 10, 2019 by SutomuDrgn

[Leuca]

3 hours ago, -Sentient- said:

Its funny because,people during 2018 where complaining about DE fixing stuff instead of adding, now it seems people doesn't want stuff 

For what it's worth I also wanted 2018 to be the going back and making things better year.

[C4n0n1ze]

Just going to jump In and say sadly I've had discussions with multiple people about ignoring tennogen and skins in general till DE starts to show some interest in revisiting older frames. Some frames just dont hold up to the current state of the game so even if your super dedicated to a single frame (I personally came to warframe to play Vauban with family members in raids) DE might not show any concern and pushes out another frame able to do what your favorite frame can do and then some. 😰

[Gurpgork]

8 hours ago, zen625 said:

Just going to jump In and say sadly I've had discussions with multiple people about ignoring tennogen and skins in general till DE starts to show some interest in revisiting older frames.

The people who make the skins don't code the Warframe reworks, and the people who make Tennogen skins don't even work for DE. Plus skins are a direct money maker for the devs, while reworks mostly just make long-standing players happy. Even if the art and design team was directly made of the same people that do Warframe reworks, it doesn't make sense for them to totally stop making new skins while they rework every Warframe that needs it. 

And they do have interest in revisiting older Warframes, it's just that old Warframes are one of thousands of moving parts in this game. Sometimes it's just not as much of a priority to rework an old Warframe as it is to, say, release an entire open world area with new lore, quests, mods, systems, and boss fights, or to rework the entire melee system and rebalance every melee weapon in the game alongside it. 

[C4n0n1ze]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

The people who make the skins don't code the Warframe reworks, and the people who make Tennogen skins don't even work for DE. Plus skins are a direct money maker for the devs, while reworks mostly just make long-standing players happy.

And thats how the conversation I had came about. Im not interested and neither were the folks who brought it up, in buying skins when Devs are not interested in shelved frames. Take Vauban's deluxe. The whole reason we saw the passive replacement and Tesla change was because people started commenting on his issues as soon as they started showing it off. If I wasn't at work id go back and find the exact timestamps for the Dev streams where people began to ask what rework was coming along with the skin, which they nervously said they didn't have anything ready for. Which lead to the passive replacement and the horrible Tesla tweak. So for now no skins/tennogen for me. When they show that there more into fixing issues on older frames instead of abandoning them after they make there initial deluxe skin (near 6 months since Vauban's dropped) maybe ill think about it. Sorry for the long response. 

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

On 2019-01-08 at 6:10 PM, (PS4)LoisGordils said:

 100% Agree. A terrible Warframe

Worse than Wukong?! come on now...