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Have we gone a little too far chasing new frames?


Quasarium
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5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

-snip-

Revenant is not based on thralls. They do things for him, yes. But he is not completely based on them.(It's like saying Atlas is based on Rumblers because they are supposed to do many things for him and have synergies.) He is based going around like an undying beast who doles out damage and never dies while also being very mobile. In that case, he is a revenant. He is not suppsoed to be a sentient warframe, he is supposed to be an Eidolon warframe. And from the extreme tankyness, ghost dash (from the lil eidolon bois that shoot pews) and lasers, he fits that bill very well enough indeed. That's where the name Revenant comes from (cause the eidolons are kinda like ghosts that walk the planes, mourning the loss of their full body.)

" But plenty of other frames can survive as well as him.  And there are certainly much better damaging abilities.  "

But none can do both things at the same time. Reminder: Not every warframe needs to have a place in a squad of four heavily specialized frames for endurance runs, even though Revenant can do 14 hour long endurance runs though.

I'll agree that his passive is redundant, but so are the passives of many frames. However, mesmer skin does not make reave redundant, as healing yourself is still good to put that small "oh god I almost died" padding there.

Also again, keep in mind. Thralls soak up damage completely fine because enemy EHP scales massively faster than DPS.

Do I agree that thralls could be better? Yes. Do I agree that his passive could make sense instead of just being a reference to eidolon shields? Yes. However, I do not agree with revenant not being decent. Revenant is a very good frame as is, and it is not out of the ordinary for a frame to have a useless ability, hell some of the most popular frames have one or even two useless abilities and they don't get nearly as much flak for it.

Edited by sappinmahsentry
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On 2019-01-14 at 9:12 PM, -Defeater- said:

dude this entire comment is you literally only reacting to half of what i said, and in a lot of cases your argument for the first half of what i said wouldve been answered by the second half of what i said.

I just don't react to the overly dumb stuff. If I did I would be wasting more time on something completely pointless. As for the following answers they were as dumb.

On 2019-01-14 at 9:12 PM, -Defeater- said:

you dont provide any evidence

I don't need to. Your reasoning as you yourself proudly stated is that any enemy that is CC'd in a given area is the same ability. Why on earth would anyone need to provide any kind of evidence in front of this logic ? You're just better off left ignored and that's what I'll do. 

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Going away from the revenant discussion, and going into warframes, I think this statement is true:

 

Quote


Warframe is currently stuck, we get many new warframes and weapons, which is great. however little is done to the overall improvement of the game.

Open worlds like Fortuna and PoE are great but in the end, they are only 2 nodes on a map.

The developers should stop focussing on dishing out quantity(6 warframes in 2019 according to an interview from a streamer and Scott), and start adding layers of depth to the game.

In other words: To move forward with warframe we have to move away from:

  • "Hey something new and shiny> Farms like crazy to get the item> item goes to the pile of "Almost never used"  like 500 other weapons and dozens of other frames"

    And move towards
     
  • "Wow, this game has so much depth, there is always something to do and it doesn't feel farming at all. and when I reach a level of gameplay a whole new level of gameplay opens up."
3

 

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14 hours ago, sappinmahsentry said:

Revenant is not based on thralls. They do things for him, yes. But he is not completely based on them.(It's like saying Atlas is based on Rumblers because they are supposed to do many things for him and have synergies.) He is based going around like an undying beast who doles out damage and never dies while also being very mobile. In that case, he is a revenant. He is not suppsoed to be a sentient warframe, he is supposed to be an Eidolon warframe. And from the extreme tankyness, ghost dash (from the lil eidolon bois that shoot pews) and lasers, he fits that bill very well enough indeed. That's where the name Revenant comes from (cause the eidolons are kinda like ghosts that walk the planes, mourning the loss of their full body.)

Poor analogy.  If Atlas were based around anything it would be his passive that creates armor for him so he can continue to be a melee frame.  But I wouldn't say Atlas has an identity to begin with.  Him and Titania are more like general ideas come to life instead of a gameplay loop given form.  You're mistaken.  Prior to his ult change the focus was entirely around thralls.  None of that mechanically changed when they gave him a different ultimate.  You can say they even pushed the importance of thralls further with the interactions his 4 has with thralls.  What you're describing is what his gameplay is like right now.  Not what his kit was designed around.  Those are entirely different things.  Eidalons are sentient enemies.  Even if I agreed with it being "eidolon frame" instead of sentient there were plenty of other abilities he could have had that made him more eidolon like.  And it doesn't matter either way.  He's referred to as both eidolon and sentient.

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" But plenty of other frames can survive as well as him.  And there are certainly much better damaging abilities.  "

But none can do both things at the same time. Reminder: Not every warframe needs to have a place in a squad of four heavily specialized frames for endurance runs, even though Revenant can do 14 hour long endurance runs though.

Not saying he needs to be meta.  As i've said before optimal play is not required.  However, people do enjoy being optimal.  So that mindset can't be ignored.  And as it stands there is no reason to take him over any other good frame.  This objective fact can't be ignored for the sake of convienence in an argument about player choice.  Also Nidus and rhino are two good examples.  Though if you wanted to be needlessly specific the only other person that out right ignores damage is wukong.  So.  Unique enough I suppose.  Interesting that both wukong and revenant have this god power yet are shackled with poor kits.

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I'll agree that his passive is redundant, but so are the passives of many frames. However, mesmer skin does not make reave redundant, as healing yourself is still good to put that small "oh god I almost died" padding there.

Also again, keep in mind. Thralls soak up damage completely fine because enemy EHP scales massively faster than DPS.

No.  I said his Mesmerskin makes it redundant.  Trying to sweep his passive under the rug with other passives like it's as bad as some others is just trying to be deceptive.  It's a decent passive.  It's not allowed to work because his mesmer skin doesn't allow it.  I could care less if the passive gets changed or mesmer skin gets changed.  Point is there is a conflict of his kit here and that is a problem.  Revenant doesn't need to heal because he doesn't take damage due to mesmer skin.  Even if he does take damage somehow the amount of health you gain back without the enemy being enthralled is laughably small like the overshields you get from thrall corpses.  Any health you could get in a panic situation from standard reave is not going to be enough to save you in any meaningful content.

Also no, the thralls do not soak up damage.  enemies are incapable of hurting each other due to scaling armor.  Thralls die to your allies.  Meaning they can't be effectively your damage soak.  Nidus's target and khora's strangle domed enemies are sponges because you have control over them.

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Do I agree that thralls could be better? Yes. Do I agree that his passive could make sense instead of just being a reference to eidolon shields? Yes. However, I do not agree with revenant not being decent. Revenant is a very good frame as is, and it is not out of the ordinary for a frame to have a useless ability, hell some of the most popular frames have one or even two useless abilities and they don't get nearly as much flak for it.

We have different values then.  I do not think Revenant is decent let alone close to being good.  When I think of good frames I think of frames like Rhino, Octavia, Nidus, Saryn.  All beautifully woven together kits with a clear thematic view and desirable yet valuable gameplay loop.  Then we have decent frames Like Nezha, Mesa, Ash.  Where they don't really have some sort of definable gameplay loop.  But they do have a role that they excel at.  Revenant falls in a group I like to call the "cool" group.  These would be frames like Titania, Atlas, and Khora.  This group of frames have cool ideas.  Cool gameplay aspects or asthetics.  But they don't have a clear or definable gameplay loop or role.  The kit design/theme might be messy.  And it's common to have one or more abilities that are bad.  Again.  These frames are not bad as no frames are bad.  They're just not gameplay defining or toating anything that makes me want to pick them up just to play them frequently.

You might have misunderstood me or you view niche/useless different than I do.  Niche use to me is still the mark of an okay ability.  I don't see enthrall or reave as okay abilities.  And plenty popular frames get flak for it.  There is a HUGE following for chroma and vauban.  Both have bad abilities and people complain constantly about that.  Mesa is consantly talked about and people do complain about her 1.  Nyx's recent rework brought smaller cult followers out to complain about their frame.  etc.  Revenant gets flak because he's thematically a mess and his gameplay loop (i.e thrall making and usage) is not fun or valuable to most of the player base.  Even if you can compare him to eidolon's what matters is others do not feel he hits that mark.  And while you can say his "focus" isn't on thralls they're still a big part of his kit.  And when you seemingly have zero reason to interact with that portion of the kit it makes playing him feel lackluster.

 

And just to be clear here i'm not trying to convince you that Revenant is bad.  I'm explaining why he is viewed negatively.  Which i'm only doing because you popped in here with your first statement essentially dismissing people's feelings on said frame purely based on the idea that they're doing something wrong with him.  Which is as ignorant as it is toxic.

Edited by (XB1)Knight Raime
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On 2019-01-08 at 7:43 PM, Paorox said:

One could argue about the fact that Vauban was made for defenses, and that would be absolutely true, but then again why should I pick him over a Frost?

Lol, why would i pick vauban for defense when his stupid sheild thing only blocks 20 enemies. when i can have Gara or limbo block all of them.

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14 hours ago, Eterud said:

Warframe is currently stuck, we get many new warframes and weapons, which is great. however little is done to the overall improvement of the game.

Open worlds like Fortuna and PoE are great but in the end, they are only 2 nodes on a map.

The developers should stop focussing on dishing out quantity(6 warframes in 2019 according to an interview from a streamer and Scott), and start adding layers of depth to the game.

In other words: To move forward with warframe we have to move away from:

  • "Hey something new and shiny> Farms like crazy to get the item> item goes to the pile of "Almost never used"  like 500 other weapons and dozens of other frames"

    And move towards
     
  • "Wow, this game has so much depth, there is always something to do and it doesn't feel farming at all. and when I reach a level of gameplay a whole new level of gameplay opens up."

This is some harsh truth here. Warframe currently feels like a big lake what is as deep as a puddle (not the hydroid type).

Fortuna came out and added into the game a map whats half is unused, some weapons and companions and minuscule amounts of lore. Everything else is grind and farming.

A lot could have been added into the game from player programable companion AI, make your own combo moves system to adjustable skill stats.

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9 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This is some harsh truth here. Warframe currently feels like a big lake what is as deep as a puddle (not the hydroid type).

Fortuna came out and added into the game a map whats half is unused, some weapons and companions and minuscule amounts of lore. Everything else is grind and farming.

A lot could have been added into the game from player programable companion AI, make your own combo moves system to adjustable skill stats.

 

Yea lol, I could easily dish out 1000 ways to add layers of depth to the game, 

Will I spend hours writing it down on these forums? No, no I won't. because;
 

  1. My normal 100 hour/ workweek job is to stand in front of crowds and to think of ways to entertain them. prefer to just play in my downtime ^^
  2. And I doubt that any of the feedback on these forums are really accounted for by in the development process unless there are hundreds of people crying for the same thing and no matter what idea you put in these forums there will always be haters who go crying how unfair an idea would be to them.
  3. I doubt that DE has the budget to go heavy development, for a game this popular I think that they are understaffed, and overloaded with work. (Heck, when I used to run private wow/private GTA servers I probably had more employees for servers the size of 1000-30.000 players than DE assigned to Warframe).
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7 hours ago, Eterud said:

snip

I regularly come up here to write some suggestions here and there but most of the time it feels pointless, like for example the latest rework of zephyr had thousands of threads made to fix the problems and all were ignored.

Feels like the only feedback what gets accepted are those who say the same one of the developers already think about, everything else is ignored.

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I don't mind having more warframes but the problem is that the game is kinda limited in how many it can support from a game mechanics point of view before a copy pasta trend becomes way too obvious and I do think that DE should cool it with releasing new warframes.

The game is pretty limited as it is already in terms of what it is about: killing stuff. There are only so many ways you can "kill" after all. I mean, for an extreme and silly example; if Warframe were to add a "farming" mechanic where you grow crops then presto: all of a sudden you can easily add half a dozen new frames or more depending on how complex the "farming" mechanic would be.

If Warframe were to say, expand on the infiltration aspects which are currently somewhat limited compared to the combat aspects, then it would open up for more advanced infiltration type warframe designs.

If Warframe were to allow frames to affect arch-wing related stuff then it would open up a venue for that area of gameplay and so on and so on...

Then the next step would be to go over another proper rework of all the frames before adding new ones.

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