Have we gone a little too far chasing new frames?

[-Defeater-]

On 2019-01-08 at 9:04 PM, GPrime96 said:

But since we got so many new Frames, DE might have to change the Mechanics of the older Frames so the newer Frames don’t become copies. Gara compared to Frost, Revenant compared to Nyx and Mesa, Garuda compared to Valkyr and maybe Saryn/Nidus, Baruuk compared to Limbo and Excal. The reason i didn’t put up Khora is i can’t think of a Frame that’s similar to her. Maybe Vauban but not 100% sure. I think it’s very easy for DE to make copy/paste without ignoring the Game’s main mechanics (so a completely new Frame). 

So DE would’ve to make every Frame works completely differently or make more Frames be completely different for this Game to avoid copy/paste abilities.

khora is like a bad vauban. and thats saying something considering vauban isnt that great

[-Defeater-]

On 2019-01-09 at 10:49 AM, Fallen_Echo said:

Revenant is a disgusting and useless mess. I dare to say that even Wukong is more useful than him.

pretty good for afk kuva survival. only use ive found for him. he definitely could be much better

[sappinmahsentry]

Not even responding to anyone in particular, just everyone in this thread.

If you think Revenant is so bad, you have built him poorly. I have no forma and I can easily, completely effortlessly (barely getting hurt at all) go one hour on survival arbitrations with near top kills (or top if everyone else died) because of his durability, mobility and damage combination. There's also the case of using his first ability in a pickle when you really need to on enemies when they start getting really tanky and you actually need the intense aggro and breather. His first ability is niche, but it has its uses.

Edited January 13, 2019 by sappinmahsentry

[Scruffel]

6 hours ago, sappinmahsentry said:

Not even responding to anyone in particular, just everyone in this thread.

If you think Revenant is so bad, you have built him poorly. I have no forma and I can easily, completely effortlessly (barely getting hurt at all) go one hour on survival arbitrations with near top kills (or top if everyone else died) because of his durability, mobility and damage combination. There's also the case of using his first ability in a pickle when you really need to on enemies when they start getting really tanky and you actually need the intense aggro and breather. His first ability is niche, but it has its uses.

Not trying to bring any doubt to your comment, more of interest, but what build do you use to bring Revenant to that point? I'm interested in getting him but I haven't seen any interesting builds in terms of his survivability, which is one thing I mainly look for in Frames. 

[(XBOX)Darthgollum 01]

On 2019-01-09 at 12:43 AM, Paorox said:

Ok, popular or unpopular, I think that what Gara, Kora, Garuda, Baruuk and a lots of other "new" frames showed us is clear: we have too many frames that do the same thing. I can't really blame DE nor everyone of the devs, but I think that there's a time when one should realize if what it's being baked in the owen is a new, exceptional form of superior nouvelle cuisine or just another pie like any other before. What I'm saying is that we need more originality, having more frames that basically are the same thing will not help. Why should I pick Gara over Frost, or any other frame over revenant (which imo was a total failure and first MR fodder frame of the game)? This comparison could go over and over and over and over, because if you played the game for a bit like I did, well, you know there are frames that are not just "similar" among each other. We can say anything, that we need more "options", but deep down we know that when we have a similar feel to the past using new content we're not using new content (feel free to disagree)

So, what's the point of all of this mess? Basically, it's not a rant, but a feedback, because I'm not liking what I'm seeing recently; the last true bit of an original concept lays within Octavia, a true monster of a frame, capable of literally anything, even slaying people while listening to Pumped Up kicks Octavia edition. What I'm saying is, we need a general rework to every frame, not a new warframe every now and then when we have for example Wukong, Atlas, Nyx (even after the rewrok, she's useless...we all know that, not even the "slow death amrch" mode can save her) and a bunch of old frames that are being ignored. Again, I'm not blaming them, but i do hope that they will notice how much potential we do have and stop making new frames if the old one are broken (and not in a positive or overpowered way, sadly)

Just to make an example, and since this section is dedicated to feedback, take Vauban into consideration; he is the supposed king of CC, yet he can't do it properly at all. The little patch he got so now Tesla can be charged, was it useful? Of course no, why should I use teslas over another build? Even the armor redux build is more ffective than zapping around foes  (which by the way is also pretty difficult since you have to charge tesla for it to be slightly effective, so after all that """""rework"""" gave something).This frame cannot survive in high end content by no means, not even with a 300% power strenght maxed range bastille that could hold over 20 enemies. And what about the 2nd? Again, a big no; those grenades are just for show, and I'm saying it as a former Vauban Main; the interesting thing about them is that at 200% strenght they can shred away a good percentage of armor (80% of armor with 200% strenght) but the funny fact is that not even this extremely powerful feat can save him in sorties, for example. One could argue about the fact that Vauban was made for defenses, and that would be absolutely true, but then again why should I pick him over a Frost? It's a personal matter preference at this point, one could say, and it would be again true, but when personal preference leads to Vauban, then what should one do? I think that is just unfair to have 2 (in the case of defenses we have about 15) choices if they cannot even be compared because one is weaker.

I think that I made clear my opinions at this point, so I won't go over. I just thought that someone should say what all of us think, soon or later, about the various frames options we have, but again, this is just a personal opinion, feel free to disagree, and I'll even say you have to, because I think that in a game with so much potential it's a pity to have clones when we could have instead a lot more. Thank you for your time

I think I partially agree and partially disagree i agree that de should probably spend a little more time planning the abilities of new frames garuda being an example as her passive grants additional damage while all or most of her abilities involve healing as opposed to damage reduction or armour to slow/(temporarily)stop her losing health meaning the player can strategize a bit more about using her abilities

[IceColdHawk]

11 hours ago, sappinmahsentry said:

Not even responding to anyone in particular, just everyone in this thread.

If you think Revenant is so bad, you have built him poorly. I have no forma and I can easily, completely effortlessly (barely getting hurt at all) go one hour on survival arbitrations with near top kills (or top if everyone else died) because of his durability, mobility and damage combination. There's also the case of using his first ability in a pickle when you really need to on enemies when they start getting really tanky and you actually need the intense aggro and breather. His first ability is niche, but it has its uses.

Omg finally someone with common sense and actual EXPERIENCE.

I applaud you good sir, thank you. I've been sharing the same sentiments for a good while now and i can't wrap my head around people comparing him to Wukong or even putting Rev below him. Like, i was unable to understand what people were doing wrong. I don't consider Revenant to be a complex frame.

5 hours ago, Scruffel said:

Not trying to bring any doubt to your comment, more of interest, but what build do you use to bring Revenant to that point? I'm interested in getting him but I haven't seen any interesting builds in terms of his survivability, which is one thing I mainly look for in Frames. 

I'm not the guy you quoted but i might be able to help you out:

All you need for survivability is high strength for lots of Mesmer Skin charges and efficiency for easy recasting since as long as you keep Mesmer Skin active, you can't die. Power Drift is important since it'll give an extra Mesmer Skin charge. Natural Talent is pretty much a must since without it, you take way too long to cast Mesmer Skin which means you're gonna be vulnerable for longer and it also just feels very uncomfortable. Somewhat high duration to ensure enemies can stay stunned by Mesmer Skin long enough for you in order to take care of them. High efficiency for longer Danse Macabre upkeep and ease of spamming 3 for mobility or damage and Mesmer Skin recasting. That's pretty much it.

Hope i could help.

Edited January 13, 2019 by IceColdHawk

[Scruffel]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

I'm not the guy you quoted but i might be able to help you out:

All you need for survivability is high strength for lots of Mesmer Skin charges and efficiency for easy recasting since as long as you keep Mesmer Skin active, you can't die. Power Drift is important since it'll give an extra Mesmer Skin charge. Natural Talent is pretty much a must since without it, you take way too long to cast Mesmer Skin which means you're gonna be vulnerable for longer and it also just feels very uncomfortable. Somewhat high duration to ensure enemies can stay stunned by Mesmer Skin long enough for you in order to take care of them. High efficiency for longer Danse Macabre upkeep and ease of spamming 3 for mobility or damage and Mesmer Skin recasting. That's pretty much it.

Hope i could help.

Neat, I actually don't have some of these mods yet but it is pretty intriguing how you mod this guy compared to some others, thanks for the info! 

[TheKnightOfReach]

I don't really care about the newer frames, i just want Zephyr. But they are cool.

[-Defeater-]

On 2019-01-09 at 6:49 AM, IceColdHawk said:

Anyone that claims Revenant is MR fodder or trash has yet to learn the game. Period.

OP, you do have some valid points to which i can agree with some of them but that one sentence of Rev being the first and only MR fodder in the game discredits the whole thing again. Yes, thrall is not the most useful thing for most of your content. But invincibility, scaling dmg and room sweep in one is the complete opposite of what you had described. You might not like him but you're objectively wrong to claim that he's the worst.

Grineer sortie 1 defense as Revenant:

  Hide contents

 

i think hes great for kuva survival, his damage scaling is great but hes kind of boring

[sappinmahsentry]

8 hours ago, Scruffel said:

Not trying to bring any doubt to your comment, more of interest, but what build do you use to bring Revenant to that point? I'm interested in getting him but I haven't seen any interesting builds in terms of his survivability, which is one thing I mainly look for in Frames. 

Transient fortitude + intensify + flow + continuity + CorroProj, narrow minded, fleeting expertise, natural talent, and 2/5 streamline.

Edited January 13, 2019 by sappinmahsentry

[-Sentient-]

Just now, sappinmahsentry said:

Transient fortitude + intensify + flow + continuity + intensify

Why continuity? are thralls even used.

[sappinmahsentry]

13 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

Why continuity? are thralls even used.

Continuity is to maintain the mobility of your third ability, Reave. Which you will be using a lot during danse macabre to reposition. Also, I accidentally posted my other post early so the formatting and the rest of the mods were kinda spooked off *and* I accidentally put intensify there twice. The rest of the mods are CorroProj, narrow minded, fleeting expertise, natural talent, and 2/5 streamline.

Natural Talent is for recasting mesmer skin safely and getting in and out of danse macabre faster to cast mesmer skin during reave.

Edited January 13, 2019 by sappinmahsentry

[Shelusine]

20 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

khora is like a bad vauban. and thats saying something considering vauban isnt that great

Not even close, Khora is an unique antity and a great one at that. Very very few frame are as good and versatile as she is. 

[sappinmahsentry]

7 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Not even close, Khora is an unique antity and a great one at that. Very very few frame are as good and versatile as she is. 

This, how could someone even say Khora is even close to Vauban? She's tanky, has great damage, good CC, and is very unique.

[-Defeater-]

19 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

Not even close, Khora is an unique antity and a great one at that. Very very few frame are as good and versatile as she is. 

her 1 is a generic single target ability that half of the other frames have, her 2 is a worse inaros 4, 3 is inconsistant and really only good for self heal, 4 is vaubans 3 but you can only have 1 and it makes everything it grabs swing around. 2 has weird synergy with 1 that brings everything to one spot like vaubans 4 but the enemies have to be under the effect of her 2 and you have to spam 1. 

like vauban without the grenades, a worse version of 3 and 4, but heey, gets a self heal. i can think of 10 frames that are more versatile, i barely see anyone play her

[Xaelroa]

On 2019-01-08 at 10:22 PM, CrystalWitch said:

Yes, it's true some frames need a little love on their passives/abilities.
Titania, for example, has a rather useless passive with the trampolines. No-one's going out of their way to use them.
Zephyr, as much as people like her mobility, don't like how much control you lose due to her floatiness on in-door maps.
Banshee, while the innate silence is nice... there are better frames suited for stealth.
Loki, while a decent frame could use a better passive. No-one's making use of that extra wall-latch, let's be honest.

Just a few examples of what needs attention.

Frost and Gara, as you references are NOT "the same frame."

 

A couple of their abilities are similar in CONCEPT but not mechanically.
Frost's bubble stops bullets but does little against melee attackers unless the augment's on.
Frost's Avalanche is meant to deal damage and provides some crowd control in freezing enemies.
 

Gara's Mass Vitrify stops all enemy fire, holds back melee attackers (When the wall's properly set up)
and damages enemies when shattered with Lash, or when the shield breaks.
Mass Vitrify can be used for defense or offense depending on the Gara's build.
Spectrorage offers a different type of crowd control than Avalanche.
And Splinter Storm is a great survivability/damage ability when used correctly.

Played the same, they're almost the same. Mechanically, they're vastly different.

Moreso, maybe people like different designs of characters, different playstyles, and having multiple frames allows that.
You wanna play a frame whose power comes from being perpetually pissed-off past all forms of lamentation? Play Octavia? No, that's Valkyr!
Wanna play with the fantasy of dual-wielding hand-cannons (and now having an Old-West aesthetic with her Prime?) Play Mesa!
Release the Kraken and drown your enemies with Hydroid!
Lure your enemies around with a shiny metal ball while it bashes their eardrums out with Octavia.
Play a character who thrives on living on the edge and feeds off her enemy's life force? Garuda!
Like the aesthetic of a Huntress and her loyal pets? Khora and another Kavat!

There are dozens of ways to play these Frames too. That's the beauty of it. Options.

Take Warcraft for example. Say you rolled a Warlock. Your character is stuck as a Warlock with only three "specializations" , one armor class and choice of aesthetics.

 

I make great use of that extra wall latch, actually. It's nice to have 5 minute long wall latches(I made a build that literally accomplished this and it only worked on loki) for those stupid "kill so many enemies without touching the ground/during wall latch" rivens.

[sappinmahsentry]

28 minutes ago, -Defeater- said:

her 1 is a generic single target ability that half of the other frames have, her 2 is a worse inaros 4, 3 is inconsistant and really only good for self heal, 4 is vaubans 3 but you can only have 1 and it makes everything it grabs swing around. 2 has weird synergy with 1 that brings everything to one spot like vaubans 4 but the enemies have to be under the effect of her 2 and you have to spam 1. 

like vauban without the grenades, a worse version of 3 and 4, but heey, gets a self heal. i can think of 10 frames that are more versatile, i barely see anyone play her

All of this shows that you literally have not played Khora one bit. Her 1 is an AoE melee attack like lanslide, but instead it's aimable and doesn't lunge you forward and just has a lot of range and critical/status chance. It completely eviscerates enemies. Her 2 shares literally nothing with inaros's 4, so I have no idea what you're going off here. It's literally an ability that chains and pulls enemies together while multiplying whipclaw's damage by 2 (Whereas inaros's 4 is an ability that either sacrifices health for armor or immobilizes enemies to heal himself and nearby allies. Again, literally share nothing in common other than both immobilize enemies. At that logic, everyone with CC is a copy of Rhino). Her 3 isn't inconsistent, you can target enemies with it to get extremely high heals with hunter mods, Venari also always targets enemies who have been ensnared, giving great synergy with Sharpened Claws. Her 4 is literally nothing like vauban's 3. Literally. I have no idea what connection you see between them other than they are both stationary CC. At that point, Baruuk's 2 is a copy of Vauban's 3, and so is his slide attack I guess.

 

You can also have two shatterdomes out at the same time.

You literally didn't even google up Khora's abilities and you felt the need to argue about them.

 

Also, why wouldn't you spam whipclaw? it deals a ton of damage.

Edited January 14, 2019 by sappinmahsentry

[Shelusine]

3 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

her 1 is a generic single target ability that half of the other frames have, her 2 is a worse inaros 4, 3 is inconsistant and really only good for self heal, 4 is vaubans 3 but you can only have 1 and it makes everything it grabs swing around. 2 has weird synergy with 1 that brings everything to one spot like vaubans 4 but the enemies have to be under the effect of her 2 and you have to spam 1. 

like vauban without the grenades, a worse version of 3 and 4, but heey, gets a self heal. i can think of 10 frames that are more versatile, i barely see anyone play her

You're ridiculing yourself.

Her 1 doesn't behave nor scale like any other ability in this game. Anyone who actually played her more than 5min knows that.

Her 2 has absolutely nothing on inaros, I recommend you read the mechanic on the wikia.

Her 3 is basically an immortal cat with stacked mods including animal instincts. If you think it's only good for healing you are very mistaken.

Her 4 has 2 instances making it one of the top abilities for interception and such. The simple fact that you didn't know the amount of domes she can use already proves that you never play the frame so I am not sure why you are trying to spread misinformation on something you have no idea about.

[-Defeater-]

56 minutes ago, Shelusine said:

You're ridiculing yourself.

Her 1 doesn't behave nor scale like any other ability in this game. Anyone who actually played her more than 5min knows that.

Her 2 has absolutely nothing on inaros, I recommend you read the mechanic on the wikia.

Her 3 is basically an immortal cat with stacked mods including animal instincts. If you think it's only good for healing you are very mistaken.

Her 4 has 2 instances making it one of the top abilities for interception and such. The simple fact that you didn't know the amount of domes she can use already proves that you never play the frame so I am not sure why you are trying to spread misinformation on something you have no idea about.

see your whole argument implies i dont know how her abilities work, but i just told you how they work.
1:scales with melee mods....woooo... this doesnt mean it isnt literally a basic 1 ability, in one melee attack i can do more damage in a wider range than this and not use any energy. aside from a few synergies with 2 and 4 its still a basic ability that to use effectively, you need to keep your 2 and 4 going when you can get the same work done with less

2: its literally inaros 4 though without armor buff from keeping the charge... not sure what you mean read the mechanic on the wiki, cause out of curiosity im on the wiki, and its pretty much the same as inaros 4 with some scaling stuff that doesnt matter cause your team is gonna kill whatever youre using your 2 on while youu mess around trying to CC enemies in a game based around killing everything in 99% of scenarios.

3: implying cats are good and/or you cant keep your regular cat alive. also can not use any cat precepts that actually make cats good such as smeeta buff or adarza crit buff, which if you wanna use those buffs youll end up taking a cat and keeping it alive. only good part about venari is self heal

4: my mistake, 2 whole stragledoms.... wow..... what a revolutionary ability. imagine a frame that can have a UNLIMITED amount of the same ability... once again, literally vauban 3 but you can only use 2. vauban can literally solo intercept for the whole team by just running around throwing his 3, and youre right, i never play the frame, theres many better options and just because you like using a frame doesnt mean theyre that great. your whole argument revolved around you thinking i didnt know how her abilities work, and other than you being able to use 2 strangledoms, i already knew how everything works. 

[-Defeater-]

4 hours ago, sappinmahsentry said:

 Her 4 is literally nothing like vauban's 3.

i gotta stop there man. you use what you want, but if youre telling me an ability that holds enemies in the air isnt similar to an ability that holds enemies in the air, i dont know what to tell you, maybe you havent played vauban yet and were too busy with this mediocre frame

[sappinmahsentry]

1 minute ago, -Defeater- said:

i gotta stop there man. you use what you want, but if youre telling me an ability that holds enemies in the air isnt similar to an ability that holds enemies in the air, i dont know what to tell you, maybe you havent played vauban yet and were too busy with this mediocre frame

I guess Rhino's 4 is like vauban's 3 then, it suspends enemies in the air right?

 

I'm not gonna get into a headache of an argument with you because I set up irrefutable, in-depth proof and you still hold on to whatever point you have. Also because I don't want to get angry over a simple video game.

[-Defeater-]

Just now, sappinmahsentry said:

I guess Rhino's 4 is like vauban's 3 then, it suspends enemies in the air right?

 

I'm not gonna get into a headache of an argument with you because I set up irrefutable, in-depth proof and you still hold on to whatever point you have. Also because I don't want to get angry over a simple video game.

i mean kinda, you can also use it as much as you want just like vaubans 3, so thank you for pointing out another frame that does the same thing better. rhino can even do low level stuff really easy with a range build, just another way its better than khoras 4. thanks for your irrefutable argument, much appreciated

[Elementalos]

6 hours ago, sappinmahsentry said:

All of this shows that you literally have not played Khora one bit.

I think what it also shows is how pointlessly reductionist you can get about warframe abilities. You can make an awful lot of warframes sound similar if you try to deconstruct them to the most basic level, but doing that is kind of pointless. Which is why while I understand why the OP wants more super unique warframes, I also don't think it's such a huge deal because most of what comes out still stands out on aesthetic grounds and in the way their various abilities mesh together. 

[-Defeater-]

Just now, Elementalos said:

I think what it also shows is how pointlessly reductionist you can get about warframe abilities. You can make an awful lot of warframes sound similar if you try to deconstruct them to the most basic level, but doing that is kind of pointless. Which is why while I understand why the OP wants more super unique warframes, I also don't think it's such a huge deal because most of what comes out still stands out on aesthetic grounds and in the way their various abilities mesh together. 

the thing is when a whole frame is just other frames abilities without anything new being introduced is when it becomes a problem. obviously youre going to have overlap, for example nidus, hes got a bunch of similar abilities to other frames but they all work together with unique synergies that make him feel new, he even introduced different ability resources with his stacks. khora on the other hand, has abilities that are pretty much exact copies or worse of other frames and brings nothing new to the table other than her cat, which for now is really just a self heal till they can somehow make pets better. id much rather they work on other stuff than release a frame where its literally just other frames abilities slapped together with different animation that dont work together at all. 

[SkyWitch]

I guess I'm on the fence. I like getting new frames and look forward to what they come up with in the future! But, I would also like if they would do some polishing on already existing frame. 

It's kind of difficult to take the community's opinion on this. Even in the OP, you said "why take Gara over Frost" when they don't even play the same way. If all you do is build a wall as Gara, you're just a bad Gara. If you think Khora is a bad Vauban, then you're just a bad Khora. Creative design shouldn't be created around people that don't know how to play the frame. Hate to sound mean, but that's your own limitations and faults. 

Maybe we do "go too far chasing new frames". I don't agree with your reasoning (or your line about speaking for us all, you don't), but I do agree that old frames could use some love.

 

Edit: Side-note! I don't really like playing Frost (sorry frosty boys and gals), but Gara is one of my top 5 frames. I honestly can't even understand the mindset that would think they're the same.

Edited January 14, 2019 by SkyCakeLight