Have we gone a little too far chasing new frames?

[-Defeater-]

Just now, SkyCakeLight said:

If you think Khora is a bad Vauban, then you're just a bad Khora.

khora brings literally nothing to the table. if your objective is CC, then youre going to pick vauban because he literally has unlimited khora 4. you can spawn the crap out of it, it takes almost no energy with high efficiency, theres nothing that really compares. vauban with anything explosive is going to be about the same as a khora whipping her 4 

if your objective is damage, youre not going to pick khora with frames like mesa, saryn, etc to choose from unless you really wanna wear out your 1 key. i guess you could say "well i like the melee aspect of khora" to which id reply we literally have a frame with an energy sword, one who is literally invincible while using their claws, and even chroma with any melee weapon. youre literally never going to see khora played as part of a team comp where youre trying to get anything meaningful done. 

am i saying she isnt unusable? no, but she isnt a great damage frame and isnt a great cc frame. she'll do fine on pretty much anything but will never be as good as many frames that we already have.

[Shelusine]

8 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

see your whole argument implies i dont know how her abilities work, but i just told you how they work.

And my whole reply already implied that your explanation is false. How more obvious does it need to be ?

 

8 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

this doesnt mean it isnt literally a basic 1 ability, in one melee attack i can do more damage in a wider range

The whole sentence already tells that you don't play the frame. I don't even know what kind of argument you are trying to make. It's like saying that fire is wet, the whole statement is so stupid that all I can tell you is to put fire on your hand so that you understand how wrong you are. The whole wiki already explain the range, mechanic and effect of the ability, if even after reading you think it's a basic 1 I don't really have the power to bless you with comprehension skills.

8 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

2: its literally inaros 4 though without armor buff from keeping the charge...

You know if you weren't this blatantly dumb I'd make 2 side by side gif to explain the blatant differences but even then considering your previous replies it'd just be a waste of time.

 

9 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

3: implying cats are good and/or you cant keep your regular cat alive. 

Yes, they are. They have tons of very strong utility mods that when stacked are very powerful. And no you mostly can't unless you play very low level content or slot tank mods, which is a fine tactic but not really profitable to her dps wise. 

9 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

which if you wanna use those buffs youll end up taking a c

Obviously you'd stack cats, no reason not to. But we are talking about the cats that never dies, not the one who can.

9 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

imagine a frame that can have a UNLIMITED amount of the same ability... 

*sigh* craft the frame ? Because at this point it's obvious that you didn't even reached that step. 

 

9 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

your whole argument revolved around you thinking i didnt know how her abilities work,

Yeah, and you really don't. But apparently sarcasm makes you believe that the only thing you got wrong is the dome. 

 

9 hours ago, -Defeater- said:

if youre telling me an ability that holds enemies in the air isnt similar to an ability that holds enemies in the air, i dont know what to tell you,

Yeah, I mean. If you tell me an ability that deals damage isn't similar to an ability that deals damage, I don't know what to tell you...

...

...

Mh 

[XaoGarrent]

I think Gara and Khora actually came out pretty good on the other end of things. That isn't to say they couldn't use more work, but when you have frames like Revenant that are both underperforming and mechanically unique, I think it's clear that the problem is less the repetition and more design kludges in the way the various frames operate.

Most of these frames could use an ability or two reworked, some better synergy between abilities or just a straight up increase in power/scaling. I mean, look at Nezha: He went from a C-List "worse rhino" to A-Tier material right along side Rhino, and at the end of the day they didn't really change what his kit does, they just made it synergize and do what it does better.

[Eterud]

On 2019-01-09 at 4:49 PM, Fallen_Echo said:

Revenant is a disgusting and useless mess. I dare to say that even Wukong is more useful than him.

You must be joking?

Revenant is one of the best tanks at the moment....

Crowd control,
Self heal, 
Invincibility, 
Massive aoe damage.

[Sloan441]

On ‎2019‎-‎01‎-‎10 at 3:00 AM, Elementalos said:

Even high powered frames like Mesa have bad skills in their kit.

Banshee's basically a one button frame and is still considered pretty good.

This is an inaccurate perception. Just because the so-called conventional wisdom says something doesn't make it so.

Many complain about Ballistic Battery, but it does work and works rather well in its very limited niche. It doesn't really mesh well with her other powers, but it has some use if you bother to apply it correctly. Of course, Mesa is so strong otherwise that if you don't bother with it, it doesn't really affect you negatively. 

Banshee is often played as a one button wonder, but she IS capable of much, much more. Most just don't see it and simply want to /afk missions as much as possible. It does Banshee a grave injustice. 

 

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Eterud said:

You must be joking?

Revenant is one of the best tanks at the moment....

Crowd control,
Self heal, 
Invincibility, 
Massive aoe damage.

Lets see, we have a now weaker variant of nyx mind control and that skill was never good. Thralls barely manage to stay alive in almost any team setup.

We have a limited charge cc-invulnerability what does not protect against enviromental damage, this one is atleast acceptable.

A dash skill what in itself is useless for self healing and expensive but combined with the first skill its still too expensive to use.

We have the highest cost aoe skill what somehow still manages to stay unimpressive and its entirely useless against a whole faction.

 

Revenant is the first frame what i consider mastery fodder.

[-Defeater-]

5 hours ago, Shelusine said:

And my whole reply already implied that your explanation is false. How more obvious does it need to be ?

 

The whole sentence already tells that you don't play the frame. I don't even know what kind of argument you are trying to make. It's like saying that fire is wet, the whole statement is so stupid that all I can tell you is to put fire on your hand so that you understand how wrong you are. The whole wiki already explain the range, mechanic and effect of the ability, if even after reading you think it's a basic 1 I don't really have the power to bless you with comprehension skills.

You know if you weren't this blatantly dumb I'd make 2 side by side gif to explain the blatant differences but even then considering your previous replies it'd just be a waste of time.

 

Yes, they are. They have tons of very strong utility mods that when stacked are very powerful. And no you mostly can't unless you play very low level content or slot tank mods, which is a fine tactic but not really profitable to her dps wise. 

Obviously you'd stack cats, no reason not to. But we are talking about the cats that never dies, not the one who can.

*sigh* craft the frame ? Because at this point it's obvious that you didn't even reached that step. 

 

Yeah, and you really don't. But apparently sarcasm makes you believe that the only thing you got wrong is the dome. 

 

Yeah, I mean. If you tell me an ability that deals damage isn't similar to an ability that deals damage, I don't know what to tell you...

...

...

Mh 

dude this entire comment is you literally only reacting to half of what i said, and in a lot of cases your argument for the first half of what i said wouldve been answered by the second half of what i said. you dont provide any evidence, your whole argument is "you dot know how to use the frame and havent played her"even though i have played her, and stopped after a couple days of bringing her through sorties and high level stuff, because she just isnt that good. 

1:you tell me her 1 is better than just using melee but provide no proof, only "check the wiki" which i did, it just scales off melee and is a spammy ability. you know whats better than smacking 1 over and over? literally any buff frame with melee. chroma with atterax or any other long range melee will literally destroy khora in a competition for dps. its literally no contest

2: "hurr durr ur 2 dumb so i wont explain" your whole argument cant be "its better but i wont say how" when i literally have already looked at the wiki and compared the two abilites. other than synergy with her 1 its basically the same ability without the extra survivability from keeping  the inaros scarab armor charge. explain it to me if i dont understand, but i have a feeling youre going to just not explain yourself like you have for the last couple comments

3: another scenario where i you read the 2nd half of what i said, they cant use the smeeta or ararza buffs, and yea you can stack like enemy radar, who cares. youre telling me youre satisfied with an ability thats literally just a 2nd cat with enemy radar? i HOPE you arent talking about damage, cause if you are you clearly dont know how inconsistent pets are. 

4: um..yes? if it does it in the same way its pretty much the same ability? and yes, the only thing i did get wrong is the dome, because you LITTERALLY ARENT EXPLAINING HOW WHAT IM SAYING IS WRONG. the ENTIRE comment is you repeating that i dont know what im doing over and over. 

i got an idea, if youd like to compare khora and vauban in a mission together, id be more than happy to show you how vauban out preforms khora. lets go into an intercept and i can go ahead and solo the mission for you while you play around with your whip needlessly killing things incredibly slow. 

if youd like to test khoras damage, then i can go ahead and throw mesa on and we can do a defense mission, you can mash your 1 button, ill be murdering things before you get a chance to get close. 

theres literally no situation where khora out preforms one of the frames we already have, she is usable, but she is pretty much a pointless frame. unless your next comment shows me some numbers or concrete examples of how khora out preforms other frames, then i cant keep arguing with someone who doesnt base their argument on facts and ignores half of mine. thats not how you debate something, its how you make yourself look silly
 

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

We have a limited charge cc-invulnerability what does not protect against enviromental damage, this one is atleast acceptable

You drop to 2 health but that's it from what I've seen. Same with self damage.

It's superior to all other forms of tanking in the game imo.

It has no health unlike armour or ehp frames, it doesn't rely on DR and thus mean you still take damage, it doesn't rely on energy as much as other energy based tank abilities do.

I mean, you stated Wukong has more worth but lets look at it.

Drain:

Defy: Constant energy drain creates reliance on rage/adrenaline for energy, sometimes resulting in deliberately standing there and letting enemies shoot you.

Mesmer Skin: 50 energy. Doesn't stop passive energy regen whilst in use and pads can be dropped for energy if you're desperate.

Self damage:

Defy: Causes you to "die", costing you 25% of your current energy with 0 gain back from rage/adrenaline.

Mesmer Skin: Brings you to 2 health, does not consume a charge, does not cost energy, essentially has absolutely no impact on you.

Synergy:

Defy: Absolutely nothing.

Mesmer Skin: Yes, enables free casts of Enthrall, essentially providing minor but free CC and somewhat decent damage pillars. Blah blah give it to teammates and recharge it with reave blah blah stuff that's not all that useful, fair, although it's still something.

Overall cost:

Defy: 50 initial cost. 5 energy per second. 25% of current energy on death.

Mesmer Skin: 50 energy for a moddable number of damage ignores, which is plenty given that with proper mobility we don't actually get hit that much, which honestly exacerbates the problem with relying on rage/adrenaline for energy further.

And let's not forget that due to the fact that Mesmer Skin doesn't immediately deactivate when you have 0 energy it's better suited versus leech eximus enemies and Ancient Disruptors.

If you, or anyone, considers Wukong to have some semblance of worth because he's a good tank, then I suggest you have a look at Revenant.

Edited January 14, 2019 by DeMonkey

[-Defeater-]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Lets see, we have a now weaker variant of nyx mind control and that skill was never good. Thralls barely manage to stay alive in almost any team setup.

We have a limited charge cc-invulnerability what does not protect against enviromental damage, this one is atleast acceptable.

A dash skill what in itself is useless for self healing and expensive but combined with the first skill its still too expensive to use.

We have the highest cost aoe skill what somehow still manages to stay unimpressive and its entirely useless against a whole faction.

 

Revenant is the first frame what i consider mastery fodder.

i agree his abilities are pretty useless for the most part, but just using his 2 to avoid damage and using his 4 is pretty good. his 3 gets you around pretty quick with the right build as well. im not saying hes top dps frame or invincible, but next time you do a kuva survival throw him on, you can pretty much cover a whole room with the lasers if you position yourself right. his 1 is really garbage though, if you could cast while in his 4 maybe it would be good but who cares if you mind control an enemy when youre gonna kill him in half a sec with your lasers 

[Fallen_Echo]

28 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You drop to 2 health but that's it from what I've seen. Same with self damage.

When was this added? The last time i used revenant was when both self damage and all enviromental damage could obliterate him. I still remember playing on hydron with 10 charges when out of nowhere a a hyekka grenade hit me and i died like mesmer was turned off.

I stand corrected and now its an acceptable tanking skill.

 

Also i might be seeing things but does the enemy AI literally turns into "friendly" mode if i mesmer 9 targets? They seem to completely stop all attacks once i reach 9 targets.

 

 

[DeMonkey]

17 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

When was this added?

Not a clue, I've been running him with the Zarr of late and never bothering to switch off of the bomb shot.

Tried the Tonkor but... it's just not the same weapon it used to be. Can't even kill myself deliberately with it no matter how hard I try.

19 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Also i might be seeing things but does the enemy AI literally turns into "friendly" mode if i mesmer 9 targets?

Do you mean Enthrall? You shouldn't be able to Enthrall 9 targets, 7 is the max so maybe a bug? Not that you really should have 7 very much. Gotta keep killing them for the juicy pillars.

[-Sentient-]

15 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Not a clue, I've been running him with the Zarr of late and never bothering to switch off of the bomb shot.

Tried the Tonkor but... it's just not the same weapon it used to be. Can't even kill myself deliberately with it no matter how hard I try.

Do you mean Enthrall? You shouldn't be able to Enthrall 9 targets, 7 is the max so maybe a bug? Not that you really should have 7 very much. Gotta keep killing them for the juicy pillars.

Why don't you stop being a wukong main and join the holy crit of harrow?

Instead of DeMonkey it would be DePriest?

why keep stuck with ugly wukong boi?

[Fallen_Echo]

14 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Do you mean Enthrall? You shouldn't be able to Enthrall 9 targets, 7 is the max so maybe a bug? Not that you really should have 7 very much. Gotta keep killing them for the juicy pillars.

No, i only runned mesmer to test out the self damage thing you mentioned and as soon as 9 enemies were stunned the other guys just started circulating around me like they dont have anything better to do.

Runned a test in the simularcum too with 20 techs and after 9 were mesmered they just stopped attacking, like mesmer stun affects the shooter cap we have.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, -Sentient- said:

Why don't you stop being a wukong main and join the holy crit of harrow?

Unenjoyable playstyle.

4 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

No, i only runned mesmer to test out the self damage thing you mentioned and as soon as 9 enemies were stunned the other guys just started circulating around me like they dont have anything better to do.

Runned a test in the simularcum too with 20 techs and after 9 were mesmered they just stopped attacking, like mesmer stun affects the shooter cap we have.

Interesting. I'll look into it myself, certainly sounds like a bug, and a rather major one at that.

Edited January 14, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Eterud]

3 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Lets see, we have a now weaker variant of nyx mind control and that skill was never good. Thralls barely manage to stay alive in almost any team setup.

We have a limited charge cc-invulnerability what does not protect against enviromental damage, this one is atleast acceptable.

A dash skill what in itself is useless for self healing and expensive but combined with the first skill its still too expensive to use.

We have the highest cost aoe skill what somehow still manages to stay unimpressive and its entirely useless against a whole faction.

 

Revenant is the first frame what i consider mastery fodder.

I really doubt that we're playing the same game....

I can stay in the 4 for an entire mission without the need to do a zenurik outside of the start of the mission.
It costs less energy than valkyr's 4, and valkyr can stay in it for hours on end. so can revenant.

also revenants AOE is the highest damage aoe in this game... with the only downside being it's fairly limited range and limited to 1.5 floors in height.(it still does fine in ESO, I often outdamage   saryn /volt/equinox depending on the map in ESO.)

Sure frames like saryn, or volt might have higher range, but they do less damage per second compared to revenant.


Oh...and my thralls do fine in level 150+ missions.


Revenant for me is in the same list as Octavia and Nidus for the top3 solo frames for higher level content.

[-Sentient-]

Use pure strength on revenant, he will be a Machine god.

[(NSW)TabascoJones]

On 2019-01-08 at 9:34 PM, Pigster0x said:

Revenant bad? Lol

I literally only used him for his 4 when I didn't have the mods to kill sentients. Haven't had a reason to since.

[birdobash]

On 2019-01-09 at 1:08 AM, Xhobract said:

And this is where I stopped reading. If you can't even tell the differences between Frost and Gara and think the latter is MR fodder you clearly are not qualified to create topics like this in the first place.

You can't read

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, Eterud said:

I can stay in the 4 for an entire mission without the need to do a zenurik outside of the start of the mission.
It costs less energy than valkyr's 4, and valkyr can stay in it for hours on end. so can revenant.

Danse drains 20 energy per second at base while Valkyr's 4 drains 15 energy per second.

9 hours ago, Eterud said:

also revenants AOE is the highest damage aoe in this game... with the only downside being it's fairly limited range and limited to 1.5 floors in height.(it still does fine in ESO, I often outdamage   saryn /volt/equinox depending on the map in ESO.)

Thats true but its also flat damage so anything what has scaling in it will deal higher damages. Also its still useless against a whole faction.

9 hours ago, Eterud said:

Oh...and my thralls do fine in level 150+ missions.

I never said they die in high level content i said they are just freakin useless. AI decoys at best.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Interesting. I'll look into it myself, certainly sounds like a bug, and a rather major one at that.

I think i found why that happens.

Due to only a limited amount of enemies are permitted to attack you simultenously i think that when someone gets stunned by mesmer skin the game does not remove the shooting permit from them and handles it like they are still attacking. Soo when you reach a certain enemy types shooting cap they stop attacking because they are not permitted to do it.

[PrawiSucia]

A warframe similiar to another warframe? I don't care. I just love that we have so many options which one to play. I choose Gara over Frost and Khora over Vauban because they're sexy. Fashion and function. That's how I play the game. And Wukong is not even in my loadout.

My point is, it's all about preference. It's like iphone and android phone. They have the same functions but some people use iphone, and some people use android phone.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2019-01-10 at 2:00 AM, Elementalos said:

To be fair, that's not really all that odd for Warframe.

Even high powered frames like Mesa have bad skills in their kit.

Banshee's basically a one button frame and is still considered pretty good.

frames typically have 2-3 good abilities and one situational ability.  Bad frames have 2 or more bad abilities.  Mesa has 3 good abilities with her 1 being bad.  Banshee has 2 good abilities and 2 situational abilities.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2019-01-13 at 12:45 AM, sappinmahsentry said:

Not even responding to anyone in particular, just everyone in this thread.

If you think Revenant is so bad, you have built him poorly. I have no forma and I can easily, completely effortlessly (barely getting hurt at all) go one hour on survival arbitrations with near top kills (or top if everyone else died) because of his durability, mobility and damage combination. There's also the case of using his first ability in a pickle when you really need to on enemies when they start getting really tanky and you actually need the intense aggro and breather. His first ability is niche, but it has its uses.

There is this misconception again.  When someone is calling Revenant bad we're not saying he's incapable of doing work.  We're saying he's bad because his kit is thematically a mess and he brings nothing unique to the table.  His kit is all about thralls both making and killing them.  Yet you get nothing of value for thralls in either sake.  Because thralls are incapable of killing each other, are not immune to damage so they can't soak up damage for you, and their death yields a minor amount of overshields at best and completely unused/poor damage at worse with the fire pillars.Mesmer skin itself makes his passive and his reave redundant (outside of reave in his 4) due to it preventing you from ever taking damage.  And to top it off thralls are not sentient like at all.  And really neither is Reave.

Yes he's good at surviving.  Yes his 4 can do good damage.  But plenty of other frames can survive as well as him.  And there are certainly much better damaging abilities.  The aggro mind controlled enemies have is inconsistent and is really only good if you've managed to disarm them.  This forces them to get in close to attack each other.  Which makes a stronger pull of an aggro effect than enemies shooting at other enemies.  Even if this were the case with Revenant AI based abilities are universally considered to be the worst kind of ability in the game.

All of revenant's abilities have uses.  Every ability has a use.  It just depends on how valuable it is.  I wouldn't call his 1 niche purely because thralls don't offer anything valuable.  If I got guaranteed radiation damage that shot from the pillars that would make their death worth it.  Because then each thrall killed turns enemies near by into rad procced enemies.  So you'd have the aggro from both his thralls and from rad enemies.  Which would help him and his allies a lot more.  Not nearly as much as chaos/rad disarm.  But still decent.

I did go ahead and give Revenant more of my time about a week ago and I don't have as harsh a view on him before.  I've made suggestions to fix him entirely in his mega thread about a month ago.  My main gripe really at this point is just that he's a sentient frame that doesn't feel sentient enough.  I still don't think he's a decent frame.  But it would be a stretch to call him factually garbage.  As is there are no bad frames in the game.  And really if we have a frame that has strong survivability and pretty decent damage sitting at what is considered the "bottom" of frames then things are pretty good.  At least that's how I see it.

[Heidelgard]

There are a ton of good warframe ideas in the fan concepts section, if you consider them, we have barely moved forward.

But I also agree that there are still some old frames that desperately need a rework or a buff.

So I would say that a possible way to proceed would be taking a break from introducing new warframes, so they can start reworking the old ones, together with the community feedback. And for doing this, it could be nice to have an online poll, where all the players can vote to choose who is going to be the next frame that needs a rework. Now probably it won't be possible to make everyone happy, cuz many people will wish for a rework based on their own ideas, but I'm positive that we can reach a state where most of us can agree that "this rework at least is making this frame better than how it was before". And finally, when a rework is completed, we remove the reworked frame from the big list (hopefully forever~) and we move to the next one, still voted by the players.

This is an intense work, but it will allow to have solid foundations, and that's what is needed to continue building up.

[(PSN)STR8L8CED]

But, but its a free game. Sorry, its my favorite cop out line. Btw, this convo is healthy, need more posts like this.