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TKDancer

Venari Bodyguard feedback

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so, new khora augment, venari dies in our place when our health reaches 0, cooldown is increased by over 3x and killing enemies reduces the cooldown by 4 seconds each

 

all nice and cool, but one giant thing that isnt mentioned: We lose the ability to spend energy to resummon venari when it dies

 

i'm guessing this was intended considering the addition of the "kills reduce cooldown" bit of the augment, but theres a bit of a problem here: 4 seconds per kill is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too little for a total cooldown of  150 seconds base, even if duration improves the cooldown and the cooldown reduction, its still bads, at the moment quick thinking is just vastly superior for the intended purpose of "second chance"

like, outside of certain endless modes, if venari goes down in your stead u wont be seeing your kitty again for a really long time, u'd usually be better off just actually going down and getting res'd or using quick thinking to take a hit to your energy and avoid death

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2 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

so, new khora augment, venari dies in our place when our health reaches 0, cooldown is increased by over 3x and killing enemies reduces the cooldown by 4 seconds each

 

all nice and cool, but one giant thing that isnt mentioned: We lose the ability to spend energy to resummon venari when it dies

 

i'm guessing this was intended considering the addition of the "kills reduce cooldown" bit of the augment, but theres a bit of a problem here: 4 seconds per kill is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too little for a total cooldown of  150 seconds base, even if duration improves the cooldown and the cooldown reduction, its still bads, at the moment quick thinking is just vastly superior for the intended purpose of "second chance"

like, outside of certain endless modes, if venari goes down in your stead u wont be seeing your kitty again for a really long time, u'd usually be better off just actually going down and getting res'd or using quick thinking to take a hit to your energy and avoid death

Yes, in the end you need to wait more than 50 secs to have Venari again, and Khora without Venari is not a good deal.

I hope this is a bug, no summoning Venari again is really bad.

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Instead of 150 seconds on the resummon, should change it to 150 second cool down on the effect itself, shortened by kills. Like Phoenix revival. 

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Food for thought: Strangledome and Ensnare groups enemies together, kill all enemies within that zone/vicinity with stacked Accumulating Whipclaw. Especially with a very good statstick to buff Whipclaw that has at minimum 145% range (Stretch, Augur Reach+Cunning Drift).

4 seconds per enemy may seem little, but consider the situation in a broader spectrum. The more AoE kills you do with Accumulating Whipclaw, Strangledome, Ensnare, or a combination of the three, the cooldown of 150s for Venari Bodyguard may not be so bad. 

Counterpoint: Would be bad with AoE dps Frames like Saryn, Volt, Equinox, etc. as their add-clearing potential could disrupt the necessary kills to lower the revive cooldown.

Personal conclusion: I play quite a bit of Khora, but when I read about the augment I wasn’t really impressed with it. Sounds good, but I don’t find it necessary. Still, it has its niche and use, and could be incorporated into any build. Could be used as a failsafe pocket deathcheater, but not truly necessary imo.

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Posted (edited)

Khora is able to get many AoE kills very quickly. As mentioned above, Khora's 1, 2 and 4 all let her get tons of kills very quickly. 

I personally use Max Range Khora, which gives me 28 Metres of Range on her 1, traps enemies within 28 metres of a target hit with her 2 and grabs enemies within 28 metres of her 10 metre Cage. (Lots of 28s, by the way.) When doing any solo ESO or Arbitrations, I can tell you that it's ridiculously easy to get many MANY kills with Khora's 1 in combination with her 2 or 4 alone per cast. She could probably reset that entire cooldown within less than 10 - 15 seconds. That's actually insane when you think about it. In ESO, I can tell you by the way that you're usually able to grab and incapacitate 20+ enemies at a time.  Only reason I can get away with this though to be fair: I have an insane Melee Riven that gives +Damage/+CritChance/+CritDamage that offsets any negative power strength plus I use Accumulating Whipclaw to further bolster my power. 

With a more average Range/Power Build, I can still see her going without for 15-20 seconds. 

But that's solo right? With other frames, she's going to suffer right? I agree, but usually within Arbitrations and ESO, she is able to keep up enough kills even with Saryns, Equinoxes and Volts around providing you build her with that sort of range. 

Personally though: I don't like playing without Venari for any amount of time though, so I'm not really choosing to use it. Plus I'm finding that there's really no space to put it. Yes, it's not Defy, but to me it seems/feels a lot more like a selfish Phoenix Renewal, and I'm certainly fine with that if that's the intent. 

Sadly: It doesn't look like Power Duration or Power Strength or anything affects it. Whether this is a bad or a good thing remains to be seen I think.

However from testing: Yeah, it's REALLY easy to get 20 kills with Khora within a span of 5-10 seconds on Endless Mission Modes (Albeit Solo: Will be harder with Saryn/Equinox but still very doable in a quick amount of time.) This will EASILY allow her to have a way to cheat death at a pretty reasonable pace. 

Edited by KaijuKraid

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3 hours ago, KaijuKraid said:

Khora is able to get many AoE kills very quickly. As mentioned above, Khora's 1, 2 and 4 all let her get tons of kills very quickly. 

...

Yeah, it's REALLY easy to get 20 kills with Khora within a span of 5-10 seconds on Endless Mission Modes (Albeit Solo: Will be harder with Saryn/Equinox but still very doable in a quick amount of time.)

excluding the time passing by naturally, one would need about 38 kills to get venari back, thats quite too many for non-endless missions(tho obviously time would also be passing so we would need fewer than 38), plus allies "stealing" kills or just killing enemies naturally

saryn's DoT would also likely steal many kills from you even if u did most of the dmg :^(

4 hours ago, WhisperBiscuit said:

Instead of 150 seconds on the resummon, should change it to 150 second cool down on the effect itself, shortened by kills. Like Phoenix revival. 

this is honestly a much better alternative but would require a heavy rework of the augment, removing the venari cooldown penalty, making the cooldown work like phoenix renewal and applying the cooldown reduction to that, i'd even be okay if they increased the cooldown to 200 seconds if this change was made

3 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Could be used as a failsafe pocket deathcheater, but not truly necessary imo.

thing is, QT does that, albeit in a different way taking a hit off your energy instead of taking away your passive and 3rd ability

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16 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

excluding the time passing by naturally, one would need about 38 kills to get venari back, thats quite too many for non-endless missions(tho obviously time would also be passing so we would need fewer than 38), plus allies "stealing" kills or just killing enemies naturally

To be fair, you probably don't need the Augment or that much layer of protection on non-endless missions. This includes Bounties and Assassination Sorties. (And with some missions, like Mobile Defence, she can EASILY score many many kills to reset that counter very quickly.) 

The only thing I can think of non-endless mission where anyone probably needs that much protection is Profit-Taker, to which Khora can EASILY gain enough kills to reset the countdown quite quickly anyways. Every Khora I've seen in Profit Taker generally gets hundreds of kills. 

But from my experience with Endless Missions, I generally am able to generate enough kills that the Augment should never be a problem, even with Saryn or Equinoxes on my squads. (Am able to consistently get more kills/more damage also in things like ESO when paired with Saryns, but that could be for a variety of reasons.) 

My only concern, like everyone else, is it takes away the use of Venari for a long time, so I'd prefer it if it didn't do that. However, as mentioned in my post, I also have 0 reason to use it currently since Accumulating Whipclaw is just way too good not to take out of a build and Khora generally really likes having as much Range/Duration as she possibly can. Maybe to fix that, the Mod needs to have some synergy with Ability Duration. 

Edited by KaijuKraid

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1 minute ago, KaijuKraid said:

To be fair, you probably don't need the Augment or that much layer of protection on non-endless missions. This includes Bounties and Assassination Sorties. 

The only thing I can think of non-endless mission where anyone probably needs that much protection is Profit-Taker, to which Khora can EASILY gain enough kills to reset the countdown quite quickly anyways. Every Khora I've seen in Profit Taker generally gets hundreds of kills. 

to be fair, QT is still prolly gonna be superior in most situations, endless missions included

i cant comment on profit taker as i've no experience with it but i'm very skeptical of this augment retaining its full intended use when in a party with "nukers" and i disagree on the "layer of protection" comment, starting around level 80 enemy dmg can quickly get a non-tank to 0 health, specially if u got knocked down and swarmed(yes i know khora has strong CC), this is specially true with some of the bosses in assassinations



another issue is that this augment is demanding yet another mod slot for an augment, and khora is at the position where she pretty much HAS to use accumulating whipclaw(for the content 'that matters') unless u have a ridiculously strong riven for a stat-stick, and even then.. so using bodyguard on top of that would mean only 6 spare normal mod slots

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18 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

to be fair, QT is still prolly gonna be superior in most situations, endless missions included

i cant comment on profit taker as i've no experience with it but i'm very skeptical of this augment retaining its full intended use when in a party with "nukers" and i disagree on the "layer of protection" comment, starting around level 80 enemy dmg can quickly get a non-tank to 0 health, specially if u got knocked down and swarmed(yes i know khora has strong CC), this is specially true with some of the bosses in assassinations



another issue is that this augment is demanding yet another mod slot for an augment, and khora is at the position where she pretty much HAS to use accumulating whipclaw(for the content 'that matters') unless u have a ridiculously strong riven for a stat-stick, and even then.. so using bodyguard on top of that would mean only 6 spare normal mod slots

I generally don't think QT is warranted on Khora. I find that in Endless, Vitality generally is the only thing needed due to the fact she a) has Venari to be able to heal her and b) can incapacitate entire rooms of enemies before they even have a chance to shoot. If you've not tried Max Ranged Khora, give it a shot. Strangledome at Max Range grabs Nullifers before they realize you exist and put their bubbles up. Actually, amusing interaction here: They'll put their bubbles up while swinging. Had a great Arbitration where my Dome was grabbing Nullifers and straight into a Gara's Wall, which they would instantly break. A singular one with Whipclaw (Accumulating or Strong Riven Statstick... or both) then just wipes away entire enemies, even Nullifers. 

I personally never had these problems and I take Khora to both Solo Content and to Group Content, she's basically becoming my main frame to bring to Endless Missions, Sorties and to Kuva Flood. 

I think the best way to look at it is this: Is it better than Phoenix Renewal for a singular person? From my experiences, I think it's better than Phoenix Renewal for a single person. But the reason Phoenix Renewal is great is because it affects an entire squad. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the mod outside of no reason to actually use it: So let's give it a reason to be used. Perhaps whoever Venari is protecting should ALSO get the bonus of if they're knocked out, Venari takes the blow. Now THAT makes it feel like an actual Bodyguard. Make it like Pheonix Renewal, allow her to protect her teammates but Venari won't protect them again until the cooldown is over. 

Edited by KaijuKraid

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3 minutes ago, KaijuKraid said:

I generally don't think QT is warranted on Khora. I find that in Endless, Vitality generally is the only thing needed

i tend to use it just to avoid things that would generally one-two shot me(like the unlucky nullifier sniper shot, or shotgun crewman)

 

but at the same time, if QT isnt needed for her, is a double edged augment needed?

5 minutes ago, KaijuKraid said:

So let's give it a reason to be used. Perhaps whoever Venari is protecting should ALSO get the bonus of if they're knocked out, Venari takes the blow.

that'd be too clunky, venari goes to protect anyone that is below a certain % which could easily screw over the khora user

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10 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

i tend to use it just to avoid things that would generally one-two shot me(like the unlucky nullifier sniper shot, or shotgun crewman)

 

but at the same time, if QT isnt needed for her, is a double edged augment needed?

that'd be too clunky, venari goes to protect anyone that is below a certain % which could easily screw over the khora user

That's my point: I don't think it's needed, but at the same time I think there are people who may enjoy using the Augment. 

And as for the Venari thing: my wording was off: Basically for Khora, she should have the effect no matter what. But anyone she chooses to protect/heal ALSO gets the benefit, so that Khora herself never is screwed over. This allows you then to dedicate protection on Oberon/Trinity who could completely increase protection.

This should allow the Augment then to be able to be used over something like QT or Vitality as a protection augment. 

Edited by KaijuKraid
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Just now, KaijuKraid said:

And as for the Venari thing: my wording was off: Basically for Khora, she'll have the effect no matter what. But anyone she chooses to protect/heal ALSO gets the benefit, so that Khora herself never is screwed over. This allows you then to dedicate protection on Oberon/Trinity who could completely increase protection.

ahhhh that makes more sense

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KaijuKraid Could you please post your build?

Im running an umbral (2) Khora with max variations. Default is 175% range which I can easily inrease to 265% at the lack of str (95%). But I do not have the slot to incoperate accumulating whipclaw to my default str (which is 210%). 

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5 minutes ago, Fiewel said:

Im running an umbral (2) Khora with max variations. Default is 175% range which I can easily inrease to 265% at the lack of str (95%). But I do not have the slot to incoperate accumulating whipclaw to my default str (which is 210%). 

you're better off dropping one of the str mods u have on, the boost from the augment is much greated than 50ish% STR

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb TKDancer:

you're better off dropping one of the str mods u have on, the boost from the augment is much greated than 50ish% STR

It depends on the content Im doing. Im not doing survival runs where the augment shines. My Khora is more about doing fast missions/profit taker and sometimes an arbitration (only 30 min). 

Im always open for improvements, how about your build? Care to share?

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11 hours ago, Fiewel said:

KaijuKraid Could you please post your build?

Im running an umbral (2) Khora with max variations. Default is 175% range which I can easily inrease to 265% at the lack of str (95%). But I do not have the slot to incoperate accumulating whipclaw to my default str (which is 210%). 

Sure. Though I would like to see your Umbral Build as well as TKDancers build =P

yBMXV0a.jpg[/IMG]

Simple Build. It's simply max range and then mash 1 every opportunity you can get. You may even need to rebind 1 to the Middle Mouse Wheel Scroll since it's mashed that much. Arcane Guardian for extra Armour is pretty useful in my opinion (and I'm not sure on this: But I think it works with Link Armour.) The other Arcane can be really anything you want, but I like Energize. 

Streamline or Primed Flow can probably be replaced. 

Companion should be either Kavat since it really helps Khora's Whipclaw.

Negative Power may seem detrimental at first. Venari heals less, does less damage with her binds and your Whipclaw will certainly do less damage on it's initial hits. However it will do far more and clear enemies much quicker than standard Power Strength builds. Even without the use of a Melee Weapon, she should still easily be able to handle sortie level enemies. (As I've kept accidentally putting her in Interceptions without Melee.) 

But I can assure you that at Arbitration, Sortie and ESO Levels, she's still easily able to do hundreds of thousands of damage to a single enemy with negative power strength. Plus, on top of that, Strangledome also adding extra damage to enemies hit by her 1 also just makes her wipe out squads of enemies easily. Just to show: Corrupted Bombards at 100 with a Corrosive Melee build that's not even optimized take 3 hits to kill with her Whipclaw at 100% extra power. That's also with one Corrosive Projection. With a more optimized build and with Radiation, those Bombards may die even quicker than 3 hits. Everything else will die from 1-2 hits at those Sortie levels. 

And this was my other issue by the way with the new Augment: Khora's 4 already makes enemies not target her anymore. They get dragged around, but any enemy near their comrades start shooting at themselves also thanks to increased threat. Add Radiation to her 1 and she'll be able to status quite a few enemies. 

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I see. You went max range and dropped most defenses. Hmm.

Thats the build Im running:

PFotw2P.jpg

Its based on max flexibility, tankyness, dps and speed. Flex slots is exilus, DV--, behind reach is a D polarity. I can swap in primed continuity, quick thinking, overextended, fleeting expertise, primed flow, augur secrets, armored agillity, vigilante pursuit or adaption depending on situation. No ramp-up time, runspeed default 1.36 can go up to 1.52 which will challenge some volts. Range is 145-265%, str 95-210%. Armor I can increase to 700 but for survivals I would take another frame or you have better skills than I (no problem sadly).

Sortie 1-3, arbitrations 30min, spider are no problem. Never tried kuva survival (I do not need any kuva so far).

I tried on the builder site to come up with an augment build, but Im short two points as quick thinking/primed flow eats too much. If I go the adaption route it would be possible. So its augment or quick thinking atm + way less flexibility as Im loosing 1modslot. Im going to test adaption more the comming time, but versus one-shotting corpus guys I simply need ehp. And I would need to reforma again... this starts getting out of hand.

Companion is normally the wyrm or an adarza (at the spider my wyrm survives not long enough).

I dont think that I will use the new augment. My Khora is dependant on Venari and it would be just a matter of a very short time until shes dead again without her cat. Plus loosing a modslot is a lot. I do not see me doing this. Even incoperating accumulating whipclaw is hard for me, maybe impossible. Ill see.

Edited by Fiewel

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The Augment seems to have counter Scaling which makes it a little redundant.

The higher enemies scale, higher chance of one-shot, harder to kill enemies, lower duration reductions, higher chance of one-shot, repeat.

Seems like it would work fine in groups but lose value as enemies scale Solo which is unfortunate since Solo is when you have limited lives.

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The irony of these posters here is that much of the community hated Venari and initially called her useless on release of the frame. What does it matter to you guys if the cat disappears? Khora doesn't need Venari to be good. 

I'm glad this augment exists.

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1 hour ago, Xaxma said:

The irony of these posters here is that much of the community hated Venari and initially called her useless on release of the frame. What does it matter to you guys if the cat disappears?

dunno how it can be ironic unless you personally saw each and everyone of us here call the cat useless/demand it be removed? plus just cause people thought cat should be tweaked doesnt mean they wanted the cat *removed*

i even spent some extra plat on some pet mods i was missing just for my venari, the dmg, crit and heal owner on dmg ones, i actually tend to leave her in attack mode instead of healing mode cause of the last one

plus khora DID have a very bad release, and it doesnt matter if khora *needs* venari, venari shouldnt be useless as it is both an ability and her passive

1 hour ago, Xaxma said:

I'm glad this augment exists.

not sure i follow, are you glad because people called venari useless and now we have a "meh" augment for it? 

18 hours ago, Xzorn said:

The Augment seems to have counter Scaling which makes it a little redundant.

The higher enemies scale, higher chance of one-shot, harder to kill enemies, lower duration reductions, higher chance of one-shot, repeat.

Seems like it would work fine in groups but lose value as enemies scale Solo which is unfortunate since Solo is when you have limited lives.

this is true, in the higher level content kills take a bit longer, specially against grineer and they deal a lot more dmg

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5 hours ago, Xaxma said:

The irony of these posters here is that much of the community hated Venari and initially called her useless on release of the frame. What does it matter to you guys if the cat disappears? Khora doesn't need Venari to be good. 

I'm glad this augment exists.

Because the initial release of Khora, with her very different Venari mechanic was near useless. (Though there was a funny bug where Heal scaled extremely well and super fast with negative power strength.) Also she has a very useless - Polarity... which I do admit I use on Venari. (Mostly out of laziness of not formaing it out.) 

Not only that: But Fortuna happened. We got Fetch and Dual Stat Mods for Beasts, which is something that Venari can very much use. Khora (and Venari) have only been getting better and better with additional content. 

With Venari now, she is pretty devastating, especially with Dual Stat Mods that allows her to Slash proc more often + Maul + Bite. Protect may still be pretty useless but Heal is pretty nice. Shame with my build, her heal is pretty garbage (That's the only real downside imo to my own build. Her snare doesn't matter imo. Power Strength doesn't seem to affect her main attacks from my tests. )

Plus she's a godsend in Arbitrations: If your companion goes down, Venari can always be relied on to having perma-vacuum. Plus if you check my posts: I think the mod is VERY good. Too good even, but there's also no reason almost all the time to use it either... if at all. 

I do agree though: Khora does not need Venari to be good. It's only when I'm in long haul arbitrations and I notice I no longer have vacuum that I realize Venari has fallen and I need to press 3. 

Edited by KaijuKraid

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Xaxma:

The irony of these posters here is that much of the community hated Venari and initially called her useless on release of the frame. What does it matter to you guys if the cat disappears? Khora doesn't need Venari to be good. 

I'm glad this augment exists.

I got Khora after her rework, so I never experienced a useless Venari, which means your critic is in my case moot. I also never posted about Venari before.

For me a dead Venari is a big deal. I rely on her heals and giving me speed. If Khora died, the reason for her death is still present. The augment is just prolonging her death without solution. Accumulated whipclaw is the better of the two augments. Nonetheless if you find space in your build to run it, power to you. I do not have this luxury atm.

Zitat

What happens when Venari alone is killed but you aren't?

Nothing special. She dies and hopefully you notice it very fast so you can resummon her. Happens at the spider for me pretty often, the moment I rez there, the damage starts to spike and Venari is hurt (or my adarza). Its very noticable. 

Edited by Fiewel

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4 hours ago, TKDancer said:

 

not sure i follow, are you glad because people called venari useless and now we have a "meh" augment for it? 

 

No I'm glad this augment exists to give Venari some use despite it being a low-key bandaid lol.

Except it seems like everyone just sort of flipped their dialogue upside down overtime just to internalize DE's neglectful stance on pets so they can stop feeling bad about it. Fetch isn't enough to overlook the innate flaw to Venari and pets in general: Shoddy AI.

But no, I'm sure we can give Khora an augment to displace attention away from her cruddy 3 and onto her 1! Oh, and let's make her 2 and 4 work faster now!

Plus, we can't ignore the fact that Venari's protect mode is completely useless and objectively inferior to attack and heal mode.

But no, I'm sure we can give Venari an augment so she stops being useless! Okay guys, she's fixed now, onto the next toy!

I'm looking at the whole picture when I say that whether you like it or not, Khora is still an unfinished frame, and I'm not going to let up on stressing that. She stands as a reminder of DE's biggest blunder to date, and this augment among whatever tacky addition they come up with isn't going to make me forget about the botched past Khora endured.

My honest opinion? After 5 forma on both Khora and Venari, I can tell you that Khora is actually a strong frame when played right. Really strong. What's the problem then? She's nothing as she was advertised as being, and even as they had to salvage whatever she was about to become, she still makes for a boring caster frame with ugly unfinished looking effects and animations and a lack of promised gameplay duality with Venari. Not once, even after what I've invested in her, would I say "Wow, I'm sure glad Venari pulled through for me! She sure was helpful there!"

So yes, I'm "glad" this augment exists, but I'm also upset it had to come to this. Yet another bandaid.

Edited by Xaxma

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No one has really said Venari is 'super duper awesome', just that she has some uses. The main bulk of Khora gameplay is always, at the moment, going to be gathering groups of enemies with her Entangle or Strangledome and then throwing a Whipclaw into their faces and basically hitting every enemy known to mankind thanks to the AoE explosion at the end of her Whipclaw.

As I said: I bring Venari to Arbitrations. If my Sentinel or Pet dies in Arbitrations, I'm going to be reliant on Venari for Fetch. As we know: Vacuum is one of the best QoL you can get. Nothing is going to stop me from arguing how much I enjoy Fetch on Venari. However: Yes, the AI for Companions need to change. (Also, maybe it's a bug, but when I tried to install multiple Dual Stat Mods, I kept only being able to make Magnetic, even when I went Cold/Poison/Electric in that order. Is that normal?) 

Trouble is, it seems everyone has mixed feelings on the augment. The only reason I probably won't use it isn't because I MUST HAVE FETCH, but rather I find there's no rooms even in my Arbitration Builds. Or at least, I find there's no actual reason for me to want to use it. I still think it's a good mod, no matter how 'bandaidy' it is, but I also feel it missed the mark and that it could have been so much more. 

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We have different opinions about Khora + Venari.  Khoras survivability stems through Venaris heals, because 275 base armor doesnt cut it in warframe, if you do a bit difficult content. Naturally, the moment the incoming damage is higher than Venaris heals, Khora goes down and this argument will do nothing against it. So no, Venari isnt useless at all, but has flaws.

Zitat
Zitat

Not once, even after what I've invested in her, would I say "Wow, I'm sure glad Venari pulled through for me! She sure was helpful there!"

 

But I can say this. Profit taker, someone went down and so I go rez this guy. I press X and start and I look at my HP bar. From 1k life to 900..800..600..dropping...400..300..1062. That was Venari. And this happens a lot. No, my adarza wasnt it. This cat is just a buff on 4 paws doing nothing, its Venari which saved me. And this happens often.

Or last week, there was an arbitration defense and an Oberon and now guess who made sure that the NPC wasnt going down?

Zitat
Zitat

I can tell you that Khora is actually a strong frame when played right. Really strong.

Yeah she is. Shes a fast, ranged cc frame with a ton of aoe damage and self heal. Shes even somewhat tanky. PLUS she looks good!

Edited by Fiewel

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