RuFi0

DE can we have the Ninja sword now?

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10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Er...

There's physical evidence of the Ninja, their tools and artifacts. There's a museum full of it in the Iga province. There's surviving Ninja texts containing techniques. Documented examples of people who either hired or were ninja (Tokugawa Ieyasu and Hattori Hanzo respectively) as well as surviving examples of these - for example, Tokugawa Ieyasu had the Iga clan reformed into the Hyakuningumi, and you can visit the existing structures where they were based today. Similarly, there are battles where they were known to have taken part - for example the battle of Mikatagahara. The history of the arts can be traced all the way back to Buddhism brought over from China. And, most importantly of all, actual living people who practice and in some cases teach Ninjutsu. Folk memories and cultural myths can't manifest actual proof of their existence.

I checked through that text and none of the references to 'proof' or 'evidence' in his article refer to any these. He even points out that "The Sword Hunt was so thorough that it would be incredible to think that the men of Iga, a province already devastated by war, could have retained any weaponry, let alone had the means to use them other than in the service of their newly imposed rulers" when Ninja rarely anything that would have been counted under the ban and subsequent mass-confiscation. Most of their weapons were repurposed farming tools or even treated natural materials. I'm quite disappointed with your so-called expert.

Yes, what the layman considers a Ninja and any of the cultural legends attached to them are almost certainly a fantasy. But Ninja, as in people who practiced Ninjutsu, were most assuredly real.

I think the thing that surprised me most was that, far from being the heroes usually depicted in the movies, ninja were considered rather lowly and even dishonourable, because their methods / tactics etc. went against the usual warrior codes of honour.

 

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8 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

That makes zero sense.

Please explain.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The Ninjato is a weapon that was made by Hollywood.

 

1 hour ago, RuFi0 said:

Dope, that means it would be perfect 👌for a video game.

 

 

I believe the train of thought is: "A made up weapon would fit in perfectly with a game full of made up weapons."

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3 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I think the thing that surprised me most was that, far from being the heroes usually depicted in the movies, ninja were considered rather lowly and even dishonourable, because their methods / tactics etc. went against the usual warrior codes of honour.

 

Ironically, they were also usually more honourable than the Samurai. Probably because they weren't gunning for the same kind of power since, y'know, that's counter-productive to being sneaky.

I mentioned the Battle of Mikatagahara? Well, that battle was odds against the victor, against a fresh military force that had just crushed the defenders earlier that day. The ninja were clearly on the losing side. You'd expect them to cut and run, right? Nope. Tokugawa Ieyasu had shielded the clan from the wrath of Oda Nobunaga during the latter's genocide of the Ninja and had earned their loyalty. So, despite primarily being his intelligence network, they played a vital role in the future Shogun's mad plan of victory - convincing his enemy that he had a trap waiting by throwing open the gates and subsequently getting them to delay their assault to the next day. The Ninja, alongside a small group of soldiers, tore through the camp that night. The Samurai took the brunt, attacking fiercely against an army hundreds of times greater - but an army caught sleeping, without their commanders or a strategy. Meanwhile, the Ninja used the confusion to strike deep into heart of the camp, stealing supplies, setting fires and slitting still sleeping throats, multiplying the force their Samurai allies dealt. Combined, the force seemed much larger than it was. If Ieyasu could expend such a seemingly large force on so foolhardy a strike, why, he must have an army - an army his enemy was not willing to fight. The enemy fled a nearly empty castle with its gates opened wide.

THAT is why Ninja are so god damn cool.

In comparison, Nobunaga's rule came to an end due to the betrayal of one of his most trusted allies - a Samurai.

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4 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

I believe the train of thought is: "A made up weapon would fit in perfectly with a game full of made up weapons."

Alternately, the notion that a made up weapon should be in a game full of made up weapons makes no sense.

By that logic, we need The Elder Wand added too.

Personally, I think it's a fair ask to request this ninjato be added as either a dual or single weapon although I think a skin would get added faster.

Historical significance isn't relevant.

Accuracy arguments fall flat

If we can have what amounts to the glaive from Krull, we can have Leonardo's sword(s) too 

Edited by Padre_Akais

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9 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

 

 

 

I believe the train of thought is: "A made up weapon would fit in perfectly with a game full of made up weapons."

Well I guess he's got us there.

 

Except that what he is proposing is something nearly identical to weapons that are already in said game...

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1 minute ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Well I guess he's got us there.

 

Except that what he is proposing is something nearly identical to weapons that are already in said game...

Now see that's a fair argument. I'm glad that people are finally disagreeing with me on topic. But the same can be argued for almost all of the weapons when you strip away the look and compare them by stats.

There are weapons in this game that are redundant, stat-wise. Many of the weapons are carbon copies with slight tweaks, and that still passes as a separate weapon. Whether or not there is something like it doesn't necessarily matter, in my opinion, because there are many things that are very similar to other things, but we like them all for our own unique reasons.

Fingerprints are all similar, but not the same, and we all have our unique versions. Swords are like this too. If I took a Katana, straightened the blade completely, and called it a Katana in front of someone with a degree with swords, he would find about 200 reasons why I am completely wrong. It might look like a katana, hell, it even used to be a katana, but now that the blade is straight, it's not a katana anymore.

Do you know why people will spend 8 bucks on a helmet with no actual use in the game besides being cosmetic? Because the person that spent the money on that item liked looking at it. I would spend 8 bucks on a dual Ninjato/Chokuto skin because it's something that I like looking at, I enjoy the weapon, and because the Nikana are not a Ninjato/Chokuto, they aren't the same to me, because they really aren't the same.

Again, whether or not it's an actual weapon or a skin, I'd just like to have it in the game. I enjoy it, and I think others would too. Especially all those Ash mains out there 🙂

 

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22 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Alternately, the notion that a made up weapon should be in a game full of made up weapons makes no sense.

I suppose it's because that is worded like a persuasive argument, rather than a defensive statement. "Because I want it" would be a better persuasive argument than that, and one would be scraping at the bottom of the barrel to do so.

 

15 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Well I guess he's got us there.

 

Except that what he is proposing is something nearly identical to weapons that are already in said game...

Based on what @RuFi0 initially posted (and looks to have reiterated), a skin would be good enough to slake their thirst for a Ninjato.

Edited by MasterBurik
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20 hours ago, RuFi0 said:

Buddy I've been asking for this for 5 years and my careful wording is because of replies like yours: "the most iconic weapon known to the ninja in pop culture." Everyone knows ninjas rock these swords, and whether or not they were actually used in real life is NULL AND VOID SINCE WE ARE SPACE NINJAS.

Doesn’t your last point Null your argument though.

We are SPACE Ninjas. The design of your blade is likely outdated for our time and would only be for cosmetic/heritage purposes to retain it. I think it would be neat and a great opportunity for some tennogen or an Ash Deluxe package. 

A short sword is not practical for our current gameplay, with range being such a big part of most Melee styles. Just because it is something YOU want, does not it is right to demand/request it from DE.

If it is something you are truly passionate about it, be productive about it.

1. Start a petition and acquire support so DE can recognize how the player community wants this.

2. Stop posting on forums and go make it yourself to submit for tennogen.

3. Reach out to a tennogen poster and hire their services.

Posting in general chat will get you nowhere but it will have you buried in negativity without YOUR ninja sword ever coming about. 

Besides, the true weapon of a ninja is.. their MIND 🙂

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13 hours ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

The problem with that is this...

 

2768C8D600000578-0-image-a-78_1428617328

... his swords vary based on what looks cool in the scene. Note how they're long and curved there. Katanas.

Which is why I said he didn't include a proper picture of a ninjato. He included a pic from a film where the swords were all over the place, and frequently katanas. And while criticising this for being a ninja game with Viking swords and Greek/Roman swords... included a picture a of Chinese sword as though that was more appropriate, which is the kind of thing people do when they think all Asian people are the same. Actually a lot of older Western works of Orientalism follow that idea.

Okay, so obviously the picture matters since we are specifically discussing a visual representation of the weapon. We're talking about a picture of something essentially and you seemed to be under the impression a jian was a ninjato, and didn't know any better. And if that's the case, and that doesn't matter, there's already an awesome ninjato in the game. This one right here;

350?cb=20170112011356

 

I've solved your conundrum. You're welcome.

See now why it matters?

Except that’s not a Ninjato, it’s a Gladius. Note the double edge point of the blade and the rounded pummel on the hilt.

Dont act like you know what you are taking about when you clearly don’t.

A ninjato has a straight blade with only one curved sharp edge, as is traditional.

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49 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

I suppose it's because that is worded like a persuasive argument, rather than a defensive statement. "Because I want it" would be a better persuasive argument than that, and one would be scraping at the bottom of the barrel to do so.

 

Based on what @RuFi0 initially posted (and looks to have reiterated), a skin would be good enough to slake their thirst for a Ninjato.

Completely agree on both counts.

I am not entirely certain why all the raking over the coals is happening on this point tbh.

It would be a nifty skin and good addition to a rather meh list of dual sword skins currently.

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1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Er...

There's physical evidence of the Ninja, their tools and artifacts. There's a museum full of it in the Iga province. There's surviving Ninja texts containing techniques. Documented examples of people who either hired or were ninja (Tokugawa Ieyasu and Hattori Hanzo respectively) as well as surviving examples of these - for example, Tokugawa Ieyasu had the Iga clan reformed into the Hyakuningumi, and you can visit the existing structures where they were based today. Similarly, there are battles where they were known to have taken part - for example the battle of Mikatagahara. The history of the arts can be traced all the way back to Buddhism brought over from China. And, most importantly of all, actual living people who practice and in some cases teach Ninjutsu. Folk memories and cultural myths can't manifest actual proof of their existence.

I checked through that text and none of the references to 'proof' or 'evidence' in his article refer to any these. He even points out that "The Sword Hunt was so thorough that it would be incredible to think that the men of Iga, a province already devastated by war, could have retained any weaponry, let alone had the means to use them other than in the service of their newly imposed rulers" when Ninja rarely anything that would have been counted under the ban and subsequent mass-confiscation. Most of their weapons were repurposed farming tools or even treated natural materials. I'm quite disappointed with your so-called expert.

Yes, what the layman considers a Ninja and any of the cultural legends attached to them are almost certainly a fantasy. But Ninja, as in people who practiced Ninjutsu, were most assuredly real.

There's also been historical records of unicorns, mermaids, aliens and any of a host of things that didn't actually exist. Queen Elizabeth used to own a unicorn horn. That's pretty physical evidence too, right? 

In my country there's a lot of anecdotal (and cartographic) evidence for Robinson Crusoe having made use of various sites, (despite him not existing,) and a good reading of the book and casual familiarity with the geography of the southern Caribbean will tell you that there's no such place. 

I'm also given to suspecting that that's the same place that was supposed to be hiring an American to be their full time ninja. 

And really, peasants using repurposed farm tools isn't some sort of unique thing. A monk spade comes to mind. But I am reasonably sure that if you had been charged with searching out weapons that you would not have overlooked "a bunch of suspiciously sharp objects with lots of pokey bits". 😉 

And this is way before anyone expressly points out that tales tend to grow with the retelling. 

 

Now let me ask you, are there any examples of existing ninjatos, that were likely to have been used by actual ninjas? Or do all of them date back to the fairly recent past? 

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1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

I suppose it's because that is worded like a persuasive argument, rather than a defensive statement. "Because I want it" would be a better persuasive argument than that, and one would be scraping at the bottom of the barrel to do so.

 

Based on what @RuFi0 initially posted (and looks to have reiterated), a skin would be good enough to slake their thirst for a Ninjato.

Well that seems pretty reasonable...and would require a lot less work than designing a new weapon from scratch.

Maybe DE could even set it as a project for the Tennogen community, to design a ninjato skin?

 

While the post itself may have been reasonable, OP did go with a particularly troll-ish / clickbait title, of the sort liable to make people more hostile than they might otherwise be.

Edited by FlusteredFerret

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On 2019-01-10 at 7:07 PM, FlusteredFerret said:

Well that seems pretty reasonable...and would require a lot less work than designing a new weapon from scratch.

Maybe DE could even set it as a project for the Tennogen community, to design a ninjato skin?

 

While the post itself may have been reasonable, OP did go with a particularly troll-ish / clickbait title, of the sort liable to make people more hostile than they might otherwise be.

I think you've pointed me out to the root of the problem. I have a playful way of speaking when I "gripe" and it doesn't translate well to text. I think that I was too subtle in my tone and people were reading the title and then interpreting my OP with the same tone. This attracted a lot of people that just wanted to argue for the sake of "putting me in my place" instead of actually contributing to the thread.

I'm not someone that posts on forums, this is something new to me and I wasn't used to being attacked en masse for what I interpreted as no particular reason, and so I became incredibly defensive, which only made the ones attacking me feel justified in "correcting" my "attitude." In the future I will have to be more literal and try not to use any form of humor that isn't blatantly obvious.

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50 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

There's also been historical records of unicorns, mermaids, aliens and any of a host of things that didn't actually exist. Queen Elizabeth used to own a unicorn horn. That's pretty physical evidence too, right? 

In my country there's a lot of anecdotal (and cartographic) evidence for Robinson Crusoe having made use of various sites, (despite him not existing,) and a good reading of the book and casual familiarity with the geography of the southern Caribbean will tell you that there's no such place. 

I'm also given to suspecting that that's the same place that was supposed to be hiring an American to be their full time ninja. 

And really, peasants using repurposed farm tools isn't some sort of unique thing. A monk spade comes to mind. But I am reasonably sure that if you had been charged with searching out weapons that you would not have overlooked "a bunch of suspiciously sharp objects with lots of pokey bits". 😉 

And this is way before anyone expressly points out that tales tend to grow with the retelling. 

 

Now let me ask you, are there any examples of existing ninjatos, that were likely to have been used by actual ninjas? Or do all of them date back to the fairly recent past? 

Historical evidence for Unicorns and the like are easily explained by other things. For example, Unicorn horns being Fossilised shells, Mermaids being Dewgongs etc.  Now, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that two texts used by historians to document the history of Japan that also reference Ninja - the Shomonki and particularly the Taiheiki - is a little harder to explain away. As are the Bansenshukai, Shoninki and Ninpiden, detailed texts discussing Ninjutsu methods cross-analysed with other historical texts for accuracy - none of which your man mentions, an odd exclusion. There's also the oral history of the oldest sword school of Japan, Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-Ryu detailing how to defend against Ninjutsu techniques,  a martial art that's been intensely scrutinised by multiple martial arts organisations for accuracy and recognised as historically accurate as we can know.

So, more than folk tales suggesting the history of Ninja. None of these are mentioned in that article, which is a curious exclusion. If he wants to discount them, then he holds the burden of proof to do so.

And the laws for what they'd confiscate as a weapon were quite specific. In particular, Chestnuts, Farming materials or tools and Coins were probably not confiscated since they're plants, required for them to farm and currency. But to Ninja, they were known as Makibishi, Kusari-Kama and Shuriken. Even in the unlikely event that these items would be confiscated... they'd easily be replaced. The whole point is that they're NOT suspiciously sharp objects, with the exception of easily concealed or disposed of Shuriken. They're objects that have every right to be sharp that a peasant would have every right to possess

And, no, there aren't any examples of existing Ninjato past Hollywood. Because I never suggested there were. Don't straw man me.

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I'm so confused...

Why are so many people AGAINST getting these swords?

Real or Fake, made up by Hollywood or only in folk tales be damned.

Ninjato just like Sai (Which are in game) are iconic weapons associated with Ninjas.

What harm does requesting & desiring these create?

I see some folks claiming they are unrealistic. The vast majority of Warframe's weapons are entirely unrealistic so that arguement boggles me.

Hell, most of these weapons could NEVER function given the magazines provided for/attached to them. Some of these weapons would have magazines akin to a Truck bed or a uhaul.

In that said.

Seriously aside from some snarky & unnecessary sass from the OP. This is a standard request.

Why has everyone gotten so hostile?

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Ninjato? Sure. Why not?

There's no minigun in the game yet, so we both can dream.

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31 minutes ago, RuFi0 said:

Maybe you should stop being so condescending towards others...


 I'd hate to stop. It's a valuable service.

Let's keep in mind that you opened this thread with a mistake. And an unpleasant one. And people pointed it, and asked for clarification and you, by your own admission, got defensive. And that's not going to help your case when you open on such a poor note.

Now let me explain something to you:

You opened this thread by questioning how a ninja game doesn't have the quintessential ninja weapon. The one that doesn't exist and whose "classic" appearance is believed to source back to Hollywood in the age of yellow face, with Mighty Whities ninjaing it up in films like American Ninja. Basically when they were fetishizing a foreign culture... and getting it wrong to add insult to injury.

Now, that on it's own isn't too bad, but you doubled down on the questionabilty of your post by holding up Greek and Norse style swords and asking how a Japanese-themed ninja game can have them but not a Chinese jian, as though it is somehow more "ninja" because, presumably, it's Asian so it's pretty much Japaneseish enough. The idea that all Asians are functionally the same was a running theme in works of Western "Orientalism". Various works of frequently racist fiction put out by white authors bastardizing Asian cultures for profit, usually smearing them all together in some terrible hodgepodge and mixing in overtly racist themes and stereotypes, and centering around a white protagonist to make matters worse (this is actually why a lot of questions were raised about Iron Fist around it's Netflix debut, since this is where it sources from).

So basically you made a post deeply rooted in racist pop culture. And I'm part Chinese. Just FYI.

Now, you wanna take a minute and ask yourself why that might not sit right with me and why someone might walk into your thread that has it's foundation with doubly questionably material and take a rather dark and negative stance within it?

Like I said, valuable service. Some things deserve a negative response. And yeah, I realize you probably didn't know any better. And it was probably unintentional. But the fact that you didn't know any better is part of the problem and doesn't make it any better. And the fact that when it's brought up, instead of apologizing and correcting your behaviour you got defensive just compounds things.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy said:

 

I'm literally not reading any of this, I'm done with you man, I've made my peace and I've admitted when I was wrong. You keep being a bully, ignored.

Edited by RuFi0
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I have not seen in any of the nations of the world such a thing as the Arka Plazmor, for example. So why not put into the game a few beautiful stylish swords, regardless of the degree of reliability of their historical existence?)
Yes, and minigun. Minigan exactly exists in reality)

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24 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

Why has everyone gotten so hostile?

Probably just the sass. Oh and the request being for them to make something that didn't actually exist, and so has no real standard form. 

 

51 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Historical evidence for Unicorns and the like are easily explained by other things. For example, Unicorn horns being Fossilised shells, Mermaids being Dewgongs etc. 

Oh you left out rhino's and patched together bits for carnival sideshows like the Fiji mermaid. 

But they're examples of how people actually believed in the existence of certain things, and that existed in multiple cross referenced text back to medieval times. I could also point out the rather ubiquitous defenses taught against vampires, as evidence of their existence, but I don't think that you will believe that they exist. 

 

Can't say that I didn't warn you though. 

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3 минуты назад, (XB1)HAPPYHapyJ0YJoy сказал:

The idea that all Asians are functionally the same was a running theme in works of Western "Orientalism". Various works of frequently racist fiction put out by white authors bastardizing Asian cultures for profit, usually smearing them all together in some terrible hodgepodge and mixing in overtly racist themes and stereotypes, and centering around a white protagonist to make matters worse (this is actually why a lot of questions were raised about Iron Fist around it's Netflix debut, since this is where it sources from).

My friend, do not get excited) You are somewhat exaggerating, in my opinion. Ignorance of the differences between traditional Japanese swords and traditional Chinese swords is not a sign of racism) Just as is not racism, for example, if some Japanese don't know the difference between Italian Schiavona and Germanic Katzbalger)

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