Can we get an ember rework already?

[PortalsFTW]

Have Pablo do it.

That is all.

[SDGDen]

yes please...

 

controversial opinion: remove world on fire completely, give ember a new 4th ability. something that ISNT set it and forget it but still as strong as world on fire.

[Omega-ZX]

Naaa... No. A new fire frame is a better choice.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Omega-ZX said:

Naaa... No. A new fire frame is a better choice.

You mean Nezha?

[Aldain]

Ember should be at the top of the list...right behind Vauban and/or Wukong.

 

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

naaa... not another rework of ember.. she is already killed by the last...

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

controversial opinion: remove world on fire completely, give ember a new 4th ability. something that ISNT set it and forget it but still as strong as world on fire.

Even more controversial opinion: change World on Fire into a short-duration ability that has a ten-second charge period like Harrow's 4 (in this case, any and all Heat damage dealt in Affinity Range, by allies, by you, by enemies, all builds up bonus damage into the ability) and lasts only around 30-40 seconds at max-duration.

People can't turn it on and leave it for the whole mission like they used to, there will always be at least 10 seconds between actually using the damage part as well, but allies can't gimp it either. (With a couple of other Pablo-inspired changes, even buffing allies to deal extra Heat damage will be even easier, too, so they'll all be actively contributing.)

I don't think anyone would object to that version, as it's not only powerful based on potential damage, but it can't be used full time to map-nuke on lower level content.

[Naneel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Birdframe_Prime:

Even more controversial opinion: change World on Fire into a short-duration ability that has a ten-second charge period like Harrow's 4 (in this case, any and all Heat damage dealt in Affinity Range, by allies, by you, by enemies, all builds up bonus damage into the ability) and lasts only around 30-40 seconds at max-duration.

While not sounding bad, this depends on what you call max duration. If I need 3 Slots for max Duration, I probably won't use this skill at all, because charging 10s for only 30-40s worth of damage sounds not really good. Maybe just make it a nuke with 10s charge time, so you won't need a huge amount of Duration for this to work ?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

naaa... not another rework of ember.. she is already killed by the last...

You do understand that “rework” does not immediately mean “nerf”, right?

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (XB1)GearsMatrix301:

You do understand that “rework” does not immediately mean “nerf”, right?

you do understand that rework means "its worst then ever" most of the time?

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you do understand that rework means "its worst then ever" most of the time?

Okay, nice theory, let's see if it's real ^^

Frames that have had positive reworks as their most recent rework that have resulted in more players using those frames regularly: Ash, Atlas, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Khora, Limbo, Mag, Nekros, Nezha, Nova, Oberon, Rhino, Saryn, Valkyr, Volt, Zephyr (some of those aren't a very big positive, but still considered positive).

Frames that had 'tweaks' that have been a mixed bag: Mirage, Mesa, Nyx, Titania, Vauban, Wukong.

Frames that have had a net nerf as their most recent rework: Banshee, Chroma, Ember, Trinity.

Frames that have not received any real work since their release cycle of tweaks and changes: Baruuk, Gara, Garuda, Inaros, Loki, Octavia, Nidus, Revenant.

Hmmmm...

Funny that there seems to be more positive than the total amount of neutral, negative and non-applicable frames put together. Innnnnteresting.

[Arcira]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you do understand that rework means "its worst then ever" most of the time?

It would be difficult to make it even worse though..although they could double the damage and reduce the aoe of WoF to 1/4 again.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

you do understand that rework means "its worst then ever" most of the time?

Ok so you don’t got it.

[Naneel]

An easy but not really elegant solution for World on Fire could be this :

• Overheat does not touch Range, so Firequake can again be a resonable build for cc
• Overheat scales infinetly, now it stops at double damage and double cost, change that so every Xs you get double the damage and double the cost, for example if we take 10s, you would have doble damge after 15s, 4x damage after 25s, 8x damage after 35s ... This should make it impossible to maintain WoF for a full mission and would also give high damage for higher level content

[(PSN)NewcastleDisease]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Birdframe_Prime:

Okay, nice theory, let's see if it's real ^^

Frames that have had positive reworks as their most recent rework that have resulted in more players using those frames regularly: Ash, Atlas, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Khora, Limbo, Mag, Nekros, Nezha, Nova, Oberon, Rhino, Saryn, Valkyr, Volt, Zephyr (some of those aren't a very big positive, but still considered positive).

Frames that had 'tweaks' that have been a mixed bag: Mirage, Mesa, Nyx, Titania, Vauban, Wukong.

Frames that have had a net nerf as their most recent rework: Banshee, Chroma, Ember, Trinity.

Frames that have not received any real work since their release cycle of tweaks and changes: Baruuk, Gara, Garuda, Inaros, Loki, Octavia, Nidus, Revenant.

Hmmmm...

Funny that there seems to be more positive than the total amount of neutral, negative and non-applicable frames put together. Innnnnteresting.

Ahm, sorry but.. i don't like most of the reworks you mentioned as positiv. 

So i don't agree with you.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

1 hour ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

Ahm, sorry but.. i don't like most of the reworks you mentioned as positiv. 

So i don't agree with you.

Then you are factually wrong. It isn't a matter of not being the type of the rework you wanted or whether it was enough. It is a simple fact in most of those cases that they are in a superior state then they were before the rework. If you disagree then you should be trying out different builds and playstyles than the staples you're determined to stick to.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Thank you @(PS4)Riko_113, appreciate the support ^^

2 hours ago, (PS4)NewcastleDisease said:

 So i don't agree with you.

You don't have to agree with me, it's not an opinion piece.

The frames that have been reworked that I marked 'positive' are in a statistically better place because they have been given more power, potential and function in their reworks and people play them more than they did before. Not only that, I can actually back up every statement with full, in-depth descriptions of why the reworks that they received most recently made them better from a purely objective point of view based on game functions and relative power across the roster of frames.

Whether you liked the state of them before better than their state now is moot.

[Xaxma]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Okay, nice theory, let's see if it's real ^^

Frames that have had positive reworks as their most recent rework that have resulted in more players using those frames regularly: Ash, Atlas, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Khora, Limbo, Mag, Nekros, Nezha, Nova, Oberon, Rhino, Saryn, Valkyr, Volt, Zephyr (some of those aren't a very big positive, but still considered positive).

Frames that had 'tweaks' that have been a mixed bag: Mirage, Mesa, Nyx, Titania, Vauban, Wukong.

Frames that have had a net nerf as their most recent rework: Banshee, Chroma, Ember, Trinity.

Frames that have not received any real work since their release cycle of tweaks and changes: Baruuk, Gara, Garuda, Inaros, Loki, Octavia, Nidus, Revenant.

Hmmmm...

Funny that there seems to be more positive than the total amount of neutral, negative and non-applicable frames put together. Innnnnteresting.

Add Gara to that list of net nerf. Her 4 used to be duration based and was completely invulnerable to breaking. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 minutes ago, Xaxma said:

Add Gara to that list of net nerf. Her 4 used to be duration based and was completely invulnerable to breaking. 

Yes, but that was during her Release Cycle, the two-to-three months after the initial release where abilities are changed based on the community usage and feedback to prevent exploits that they didn't notice ^^ In this case there were also fixes to how her abilities were affected by Nullifiers, and the Vitrify change was followed not long after by a second one buffing it up a little so that it could actually gain strength if you cast it over enemies. So her actual most recent rework was a buff, but again, that was still in the release cycle, which I've made a separate category.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

As long as it doesnt nerf her any farther into the ground... at this rate she is going to emerge in china!

[PortalsFTW]

I don't care about the details right now, I just want DE to acknowledge that ember needs some attention.

[DroopingPuppy]

After DE remove her from the game, since about 10 months ago, my Ember Prime is still on a deep slumber because she simply lost the reason of existence.

 

Anyway, I need to explain WHY, what OP didn't.

World on Fire

World on Fire is a close range damage dealing skill. But, Ember lacks a way to survive in the close range. Also, it is too short and only provides melee range level of distance(only 7.5m by default, and with Stretch it increased by 10.875m). Because it is a damage dealing main(and even for procs ability strength also affects strength!!) you can't put Overextended to cut down the strength. And, its delayed blast and limited number of burst in a time forces her to within the area of melee range - without any kit for the survival, of course - results using World on Fire no more than sucidial attempts.

So, WoF either cause really no damage or your Ember is likely to be killed if you try to cause any damage by WoF.

Even if you need for the close area DD, make a spin attack with a whip would be much better, for it will strike faster than WoF and stall the enemy faster than it as well, but what's the point on WoF in the first place? Why you are bothered to pick Ember for you can have the better one by pick a whip, and also able to enjoy the other abilities of the other warframe?

Not to mention that its increased energy consumption drains the energy to cast Accelerant, and Ember already needs heavy investment for the personal durability on the mod slots to run even on the era of 21.75m WoF range so you can't have much spaces left to make up the problem.

 

Fireball

It's a good skill on the paper, for it leaves a DOT area that only need ability strength to increase both damage and area when fully charged. The problem is, its charge rate is horrible even with Natural Talent, make it unable to charge it, dodge the enemy attacks while also shoot the bullets. So, why don't you have a launcher type weapon and blast the enemy and why you are bothered to stick with Ember and forfeit the other good ability?

 

---------------

So, my conclusion is, other than your personal taste, picking Ember is just pointless, for she is competitive with weapons, NOT warframes. And we can pick one warframe and also pick up to three weapons(primary, secondary, melee). So, if you need something what Ember can, you can just pick the weapons that does as much as Ember does(or even better than her), and ALSO able to enjoy the other warframe's ability.

And, even if you need for the ability to kill the enemy, you can do this by Banshee, Equinox, Saryn or Octavia. Equinox and Octavia are simply better at fire and forget style of area damage aura styled warframe as well. And even Volt, Frost and Oberon can damaging a bunch of enemy in the large area, making them superior to Ember. Just for clearing low level extermination missions these warframes are simply better than Ember, and they are even better on the high tier missions as well.

Then, is there any reason to play Ember beside your personal taste? I don't think so.

Edited January 14, 2019 by DroopingPuppy

[--RV--Dopekoke]

Pablo Prime.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2019-01-13 at 7:58 AM, PortalsFTW said:

I don't care about the details right now, I just want DE to acknowledge that ember needs some attention.

Oh, they have, she's on that list. What's the hold-up is the actual details.

Pablo himself said it when the Nezha rework dropped; he just had the idea on how to do it at the time, there's all the other frames that need work, like Vauban, Nyx and Ember, but that he only had the ideas for how to fix Nezha at that point. If he'd had the ideas on how to fix Ember, then she'd have been the one instead of Nezha, or she'd at least be in the works too.

They know, believe me, the sheer amount of threads about her is overwhelming. They know.

But how? Now there's a good debate.

I've got a good one from an earlier thread, and I made a comment about it on this one earlier. Here, if you're interested:

Spoiler

Passive: Overheat. Ember gains Power Strength for each enemy set on fire up to a cap of 35%, this effect drains over time.

1. Fireball. Cast a fireball at your enemies. On impact it turns into a deadly guardian flame that persists for a long duration, inflicting damage and a high status chance to ignite foes that only increases the closer to the flame they are. If enemies attempt to shoot through the flame, the intense heat will redirect their attacks, leaving Ember and her allies unharmed.

2. Fire Blast. Immolate the foes before you with a deadly heat blast. Deals 2x damage to any enemy already on fire and will extend and intensify the flames.

3. Accelerant. Radiate an aura that coats your foes in inflammable material, causing all instances of Heat damage to be more effective, while allies in range all gain additional Heat damage and bonus Status chance on all weapons. The ability can be refreshed at any time, and all enemies are staggered on cast for a minimum of four seconds.

4. World on Fire. On casting, Ember creates a massive aura that increases casting speed and reload speed for all in range. Any Heat damage inflicted within that area charges up Ember's attack, no matter the source, and after the charge period is done, let the flames begin. For a short duration, Ember is surrounded by an aura of such intense heat that the air itself explodes, and up to five enemies at a time within range are targeted for an intense blast of fire.

Now, why?

Because with this, Fire Status gets a direct and amazing upgrade. The idea is to throw down a Fireball and use it as an actual damage mitigation tool, while enemies that approach you are more and more likely to get a Status proc of Heat the closer they are to the flame (which is proportional, so if you put on a wide range, then max damage and max status chance range is wider too). Then you hit everything with the new Fire Blast, a cone-of-effect cast that deals high base damage, double damage (affected by Strength) to enemies on fire (and multiplied by Accelerant, too, don't forget that), and the ability also adds to the existing procs. Not just refreshing them, as new Heat procs do currently, no, the ability would add in all the new damage, and then extend the on-fire status by an actual Duration.

She no longer needs to have stun CC be her only way of staying alive, is one point to make. Yes stun CC is a functional part of her kit, I haven't forgotten, but the improvement by giving her a conditional, non-self-buffing damage mitigation (since DE specifically did say that they did not want to give her actual, personal damage mitigation) that also applies to anyone in her team that wants to use it, like a Volt Shield... she'll survive absolutely fine through all the content on the star chart, and in a long survival she'll be as good as Volt.

Accelerant switches to a Duration ability, as a simultaneous buff/debuff cast on her 3, no more having to cast and re-cast to get the debuff onto new enemies, and also taking the bonus Heat damage part from the current Fire Blast so that you're giving your allies access to the debuff even if they don't have your damage type. And then there's the recast, which (if you're building for that Duration on all four of her abilities) means you can pick and choose when to CC your enemies, not just stun and re-stun and re-stun.

And finally, the previous World on Fire comes back, bigger and better and specifically Duration based, with a 10 second charge-up window to stop it being spammed like it used to be. You can't turn it on and forget it through a mission, like you used to, you have to actually build up the ability and then use it. With the bonus from Accelerant and the potential damage you could charge up with the ability's absorb phase? This could potentially one-shot enemies past Sortie levels. But only potentially, much like Magnetise, which is another existing ability that works off potential damage.

Ticks the box for Defense, CC, Offense in spades, and Support too. Plus all of the abilities either work together, or contribute to each other. And I haven't even gone into what the Augments would then do on top.

Ooh, and let's not forget the self-buffing on top of self buffing. Setting a bunch of enemies on fire with her 1 and 2, and by the time you're done she has an extra 35% power strength from her passive, add on another 25% from Growing Power, then you cast Accelerant for an extra 60% Strength, and you maintain that by recasting throughout a mission? I'm practically salivating over the potential damage that could give you.

So there's that.

If you'd like the idea.

 

[GhostUnitVII]

How often do you see Ember in high tier maps, hour long survivals, and deep dive defenses? Not often for myself... and that was apparent even at the beginning of the games launch near Beta. Ember's huge problem is that she is soft, like stupid soft and nothing to show for it. Her abilities are GREAT at early game, and devistating against any opponment, but once you start getting enemies in level 50 towards tripple didgets... she starts to become lackluster. I can compile a list of items right now that DE fudged up and nerfed in the past due to their nature.

I have both Ember and Ember prime, she was one of my favorite frames, and yet even the prime variant is lacking.

Ember doesn't need a "rework" she needs a REBUILD. New entire set of abilities, better base health, and slightly higher armor to compensate for the power creep... sad thing is, she isn't the only one that needs it.

 

correction... Ember seems to be fine, just needs some love in the health department of things.

Edited January 14, 2019 by GhostUnitVII