Can we get an ember rework already?

[Hellmaker2004]

So i am going to post a little bit of math here to show people what Ember in theory is capable of in damage numbers, now i will not say these are the numbers you will be pushing out because Heat is a terrible type of status due to how it is designed now i will be starting with the one i have done the most experience with both with testing and calculation and i can say these are correct. I will warn you all about a giant wall of Text, and this is only done to show WoF at 0% Overheat. 

Spoiler

 

X = Power Strength
Y = (Damage × X) × (1 - Damage Resistance)
U = (Damage × X) × (1 - Damage Resistance) × (1 - Damage Resistance)
Z = (0.35 × X), If above 1 rounded down to 1.
P = K × X
K = If using Flash Accelerant = 0.5 if not then = 0

Y+(((U × ((1+P) ÷ 2)) × 7) × Z)

The first one is when using Flash Accelerant, a mod i can highly recomend when using Ember in high level content where you will hopefully rely on the bigger part of fire damage instead of the small amount that the burst is. As a example to demonstrate this the burst damage of  Heat is only 22.2% Of the total damage done if you have 100% Status chance.
Base Damage × (Heat Mod Multiplier ÷ 2) per tick for 7 ticks over 6 seconds as  Heat damage.

100/(100+(50*7)) = 0.22222222222 ≈ 0.222*100 = 22.2%

 

Now we can already see from the above mentioned formula that Accelerant itself is not included but since that is easy to add lets not worrie about it for now. Another thing we can see really fast are two things. 
One is that World on Fire scale very well with Power Strength, this is because by itself not only are you increasing the initial damage, but you are also increasting status chance. The status chance will have a hardcap at 1 = 100% But until then(1/0.35 = 2.85714285714 ≈ 2.86*100 = 286% Power Strength) she scales great, now if you also add in the augment mod Flash Accelerant We get a additional layer of scaling that have no hardcap.
Two is that enemies with any type of damage resistance will have double there resistance against the majority of her damage.

But Lets see how much she deals at 100% PS on a level 30 frame, and lets not include damage resistance at this time because it very quickly becomes complicated.
X = 1.00
Y = (400 × 1.00)
U = (400 × 1.00)
Z = (0.35 × 1), If above 1 rounded down to 1.
P = K × X
K = If using Flash Accelerant = 0.5 if not then = 0

400+(((400 × ((1+0) ÷ 2)) × 7) × 0.35) = 890 Damage per Explosion per enemy hit on average.
Or with Flash Accelerant
400+(((400 × ((1+0.5) ÷ 2)) × 7) × 0.35) = 1135 Damage per Explosion per enemy hit on average.

This is before we add in the 2.5 Multiplier that Accelerant would provide with 100% Power Strength.
That would change it to.
890 *2.5 = 2225 Damage per Explosion per enemy hit on average.
Or
1135*2.5 = 2837.5 Damage per Explosion per enemy hit on average.

And why do i say on average? Well the status chance at 100% PS is only 35% Chance, so when it does happen they will take more than above, but the formula is using the average damage, it is also important to note that this is per explosion and assuming only one foe do get hit. As we know there is 5 explosions when you activate WoF and then 2 to 4.5 explosions per second. But lets see what she can do with a bit more PS. Once again this is not the build i would recomend but only to show you what she can do. Once again lets not include damage resistance.

X = 309% = 3.09
Y = (400 × 3.09)
U = (400 × 3.09)
Z = (0.35 × 3.09), If above 1 rounded down to 1.
P = K × 3.09
K = If using Flash Accelerant = 0.5 if not then = 0

1236+(((1236 × ((1+0) ÷ 2)) × 7) × 1) = 5562 Damage per Explosion per enemy hit.
Or with Flash Accelerant
1236+(((1236 × ((1+1.545) ÷ 2)) × 7) × 1) = 12245.67 Damage per Explosion per enemy hit.

This is before the 2.5*3.09 = 7.725 Multiplier Accelerant would apply on foes. We can also remove the Average as each explosions when you are above 286% PS have a guaranteed chance to apply a heat proc. And with Accelerant it would be.

5562*7,725 = 42966,45 Damage Per Explosion per foe hit.
Or with Flash Accelerant
12245,67*7,725 = 94597,80075 Damage Per Explosion per foe hit.

Now we can see two things.
One is that her damage can be really high in theory and scales great with Power Strength(PS) if the mobs are alive for the entire duration and that is 6 seconds, clearly if they die before the overkill damage is not needed.
Two is that the augment Flash Accelerant is insane, altough it is very cryptic what it does so i would recomend reading up on the wiki.

Now you may wonder, if these are the numbers she can do then why is no one using her? Well that is quite simple, these are the numbers in theory. In reality we know that mobs have damage resistance, this means she can deal great damage if you manage to strip all enemy armor ( 4 x Corrosive Projection or 3 x Corrosive Projection with Coaction Drift ) And that there health type does not have any resistance towards Heat. Lets simply add in a trivial amount of Damage resistance to see what happen. I will use the above mentioned formula.

Now we will give the mobs 50% Damage resistance, that is a trivial amount of armor and for those who are unaware that is only at 300 armor. 
 
X = 309% = 3.09
Y = (400 × 3.09) × (1 - 0.5)
U = (400 × 3.09) × (1 - 0.5) × (1 - 0.5)
Z = (0.35 × 3.09), If above 1 rounded down to 1.
P = K × 3.09
K = If using Flash Accelerant = 0.5 if not then = 0

618+(((309 × ((1+0) ÷ 2)) × 7) × 1) = 1699.5 Damage Per Explosion per foe hit.
Or with Flash Accelerant
618+(((309 × ((1+1.545) ÷ 2)) × 7) × 1) = 3370.4175 Damage Per Explosion per foe hit.

Now we can see one major problem with heat and that is how it gets impacted by Armor / Damage resistance effects.. I know that all damage types except True gets impacted by armor, the issue with Heat or Ember in this case is that the majority of the damage she is doing is from the status proc, a proc that takes damage reduction effects twice remember. Only around 22.2% Of her Damage is the direct damage, everything else is the indirect damage from the heat proc and if you use Flash Accelerant that number only gets bigger.

The second problem is a bit harder to explain and it in theory should work both ways, as in if you know how to exploit it then you can in theory use it to your advantage instead.
And that is if you reapply Heat on a foe that already have heat, it will only extend the old heat proc.
So a mob suffering from a 5000 heat damage per second who get hit by a 1 heat damage that proc heat. Will have the 5000 heat damage per second refreshed to 6 seconds duration. But this work both ways, so a 1 heat damage per second proc, that get refreshed by a 5000 heat damage per second, will only have the 1 heat damage per second extended to 6 seconds.

This may not sound like a big deal, and in most cases you would be correct. It is a give and take system so if you know how to use it, then it could be to your advantage. The problem come with Accelerant that Ember rely on. And you are missing out on a big deal of her potential damage if you happen to apply a heat proc before applying Accelerant.
 

Summerized for those who do not want to read a wall of text
Problem Number one
Damage reduction. A World on Fire Explosion that at 309% Power Strength should be dealing 5562 damage per enemy hit before including Accelerant or Overheat. Will end up dealing only 1699.5 against foes with 50% Armor / Damage resistance, to get 50% Armor a foe only need 300 Armor.

Problem Number two
Heat Procs are poorly designed in a damage perspective due to them refreshing old procs instead of applying and using the stronger as they are very likely to screw you over with weaker proc that prohibits you from applying a really strong proc.

In short Embers worst enemy is weak heat procs, and Armor / Damage Resistance.
Also Flash Accelerant is a insane augment and for late game Ember players i would recomend them to try and use it.

[Arcira]

On 2019-01-15 at 2:36 AM, Hellmaker2004 said:

Summerized for those who do not want to read a wall of text
Problem Number one
Damage reduction. A World on Fire Explosion that at 309% Power Strength should be dealing 5562 damage per enemy hit before including Accelerant or Overheat. Will end up dealing only 1699.5 against foes with 50% Armor / Damage resistance, to get 50% Armor a foe only need 300 Armor.

Problem Number two
Heat Procs are poorly designed in a damage perspective due to them refreshing old procs instead of applying and using the stronger as they are very likely to screw you over with weaker proc that prohibits you from applying a really strong proc.

In short Embers worst enemy is weak heat procs, and Armor / Damage Resistance.
Also Flash Accelerant is a insane augment and for late game Ember players i would recomend them to try and use it.

 

I do appreciate your work however I´d add some things for people who look at those numbers and think that isn´t bad at all:

1.) WoF is very random and doesn´t care wether an enemy has a heat proc or not. It´s like adding a Metal Augur mod on your weapon and assume your overall dps will be increased by 4 or 5 times constantly. Most of the damage will be wasted.

2.) Similar thing: most of the time you will kill trash mobs with WoF wether you deal 10k or 20k damage to them doesn´t really matter. You can see the real strenght when it comes to single target damage (against heavy units) in which case heat procs are far less effective because as you said they do have a lot of problems. And of cause they do not stack.

3.) Keep in mind those numbers arn´t dps rather than total damage values which in my opinion can be very missleading. The total damage per explosion is high but the biggest part is the proc damage and can be applied once overy 6 seconds only.

In summary: The actual damage of heat procs is very random and far less valuable than someone would assume after checking the numbers.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Arcira

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Problem Number one
Damage reduction.

Problem Number two
Heat Procs are poorly designed

This may come off as a bit of self-promotion, but... could you cast your eye over my previous comment? It's the last one on page 1 and has some changes listed that I came up with.

I think you might like the potential in changing Fire Blast to interact directly with Ignite Status and the variation I've put in for World on Fire that addresses the poor base damage a little better. Plus a couple of the others, like giving her a method for personal/ally damage mitigation (in a similar way to Mag or Volt's) and suggesting that Accelerant's constant recasting to affect new enemies is a little too spammy and needs an update so that we can use the CC when we want, but get the debuffs applied without constant casting.

Let me know if at least the idea is sound ^^

[Twistedsparkle]

she needs a rework like yesterday

shes just not fun to play at all anymore
fireballs charge takes forever and it really doesnt make much of a dent even at full charge and its just so darn clunky to use
her 2 is good but visually unappealing it reminds me of a fart
her 3 is just underwhelming even tho looks cool and atleast it knocks down enemies

and the worst of all her 4
world on fire? more like "Ima drain your energy,dont do damage, 7 meters of fire"
her passive sucks too.. should be something to help with her energy consumption consistently

I dont get it why they nerfed it so hard
I mean I get it yeah it cleared low level scum fast but thats it
if it really was such a problem how about instead of nerfing the range DE should increase it but have it be affected by line of sight
you know.... like most other frames?

she could also use moar survivability
(give her dat fire armor while casting her 4 or sumthing)

I want my fire princess back 😞

[Shockwave-]

On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 9:35 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Okay, nice theory, let's see if it's real ^^

Frames that have had positive reworks as their most recent rework that have resulted in more players using those frames regularly: Ash, Atlas, Equinox, Excalibur, Frost, Harrow, Hydroid, Ivara, Khora, Limbo, Mag, Nekros, Nezha, Nova, Oberon, Rhino, Saryn, Valkyr, Volt, Zephyr (some of those aren't a very big positive, but still considered positive).

Frames that had 'tweaks' that have been a mixed bag: Mirage, Mesa, Nyx, Titania, Vauban, Wukong.

Frames that have had a net nerf as their most recent rework: Banshee, Chroma, Ember, Trinity.

Frames that have not received any real work since their release cycle of tweaks and changes: Baruuk, Gara, Garuda, Inaros, Loki, Octavia, Nidus, Revenant.

Hmmmm...

Funny that there seems to be more positive than the total amount of neutral, negative and non-applicable frames put together. Innnnnteresting.

When did Ash have another rework? I used to use ash all the time before they reworked his 4, I haven't touched him since. Did they rework him again, because I don't believe he qualifies for your list.  Ivara and Khora were more like release tweaks, which they have started doing, not what I would call reworks. Some people still world prefer old nuke saryn and you can't say her rework make more people play her, ditto valkyr. Her rework nerfed her. Both frames I play less after reworks than before their reworks. . Mag's old map nuke for corpus was nerfed, again I'm not sure her overall rework made her played more.

 

Mirage and mesa tweaks were a net nerf. How can you not put them in the net nerf category?. Also Excalibur radial jav nerf hurt him a bunch, what was the rework that improved him back?

 

Seems like you are counting any frame that had a positive change (even after a hard nerf)  as a positive rework instead both a negative and positive rework that cancel each other out.

[Shockwave-]

On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 11:14 AM, Naneel said:

An easy but not really elegant solution for World on Fire could be this :

• Overheat does not touch Range, so Firequake can again be a resonable build for cc
• Overheat scales infinetly, now it stops at double damage and double cost, change that so every Xs you get double the damage and double the cost, for example if we take 10s, you would have doble damge after 15s, 4x damage after 25s, 8x damage after 35s ... This should make it impossible to maintain WoF for a full mission and would also give high damage for higher level content

That wouldn't work. In high level missions you have to wait 35 seconds to get to high damage... you will be one shot by then. You can't wait 35 seconds to get to max damage if you have to reset it regularly. That would still make her useless in any high level mission. Gara's splinterstorm doesn't reset. Nidus's damage doesn't reset regularly once he gets his stacks, etc.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, Shockwave- said:

When did Ash have another rework?

When they changed his awful bigger change for the tagging and attack Bladestorm for one that you didn't have to join in on and just let the clones do their thing. It was a rework to the ability, including energy cost attached to it.

Khora actually does kind of qualify for both, her release tweaks did go on for far longer than any other frame though, the last ones they did were right up at the point of Revanent being released.

2 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Seems like you are counting any frame that had a positive change (even after a hard nerf)  as a positive rework

I said it in the starting paragraph; their most recent reworks.

Why? Because frames have nerfs and buffs like yo-yos sometimes. If you don't specify something like 'the most recent changes' then overall you'll find that Warframe has plain power creep ramping with only a few major nerfs across anything.

[Shockwave-]

9 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

I said it in the starting paragraph; their most recent reworks.

Why? Because frames have nerfs and buffs like yo-yos sometimes. If you don't specify something like 'the most recent changes' then overall you'll find that Warframe has plain power creep ramping with only a few major nerfs across anything.

 Then your argument is not supported by your data. Your argument is we shouldn't fear DE reworks. DE reworks are mostly bad, and leave the frame worse off than they were before. So we do fear them.

Your notion of only counting the most recent rework does not count the TOTAL number of reworks. So in your mind a frame that had a huge nerf, a terrible rework, and then a slightly positive rework counts as a single positive rework even though it had 2 bad ones and one good one.  Even if the frame is worse overall from its starting point, as long as it is better than it's last rework to you it is a single positive case. That's not a very effective argument.

 

ASH is a perfect example. They nuked him so nobody wanted to use him, then tweaked him back a little. A net negative overall and he is a worse frame for it, but to you it's a single example of a good rework.

I'll concede that DE has done better recently with reworks and they are trending up, but not enough to overcome the past (yet). Ember being nuked for no reason, with no backpedal while empowering other frames so they are broken (Saryn, Octavia, etc) still sticks out to me.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Shockwave-

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

 Then your argument is not supported by your data. Your argument is we shouldn't fear DE reworks. DE reworks are mostly bad, and leave the frame worse off than they were before. So we do fear them.

You... just read that comment there and stated the opposite.

My argument is that we should not fear DE reworks because overall the whole game has massive power creeps, and even with the nerfs to one or two frames, they get better and better over time with more reworks. That's why I stated 'the most recent reworks' and that's why the majority of those are positive.

17 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

So in your mind a frame that had a huge nerf, a terrible rework, and then a slightly positive rework counts as a single positive rework even though it had 2 bad ones and one good one.

Please let me be clear. There are nerfs. And then there are buffs. Sequentially. My data was from the most recent.

Sometimes, yes, the nerfs are bigger than the buffs. More often, though, the buffs vastly outweigh the nerfs.

Again, because of the innate power creep of Warframe as a game.

18 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

but not enough to overcome the past (yet). Ember being nuked for no reason, with no backpedal while empowering other frames so they are broken (Saryn, Octavia, etc) still sticks out to me.

Pablo himself said that the only reason Ember hasn't been reworked to overcome her nerfs was because they're still figuring out how. If they'd got the method together, she would have been the one getting a rework instead of Nezha.

They can only fix a frame once they know how, and the Forums and all the little rework threads that we run, are largely ignored until DE actually say 'we're working on frame X, what's your feedback'.

Point of fact, I was around for almost all of the Ember changes over time. Ember now is still a hundred times more powerful than she was in her original form. But yes, there was a solid nerf to one ability, a removal of a specific function that they said isn't coming back in that form, but everything else she does has been buffed

In short?

You cannot say that Warframe reworks are always nerfs. They have been, over the course of five years, incredibly in the favour of buffs. And my specific data of the most recent reworks is still indicative of my point because even with all the ones that people have pointed out against it, like Khora, Mirage, Mesa, Ash and so on, because in their opinion they don't fit the classifications... There are still more than double the positive reworks than there are negative ones in just the most recent round. Before that? The pattern is not changed.

[Trusnam]

On 2019-01-13 at 9:19 PM, DroopingPuppy said:

World on Fire

World on Fire is a close range damage dealing skill. But, Ember lacks a way to survive in the close range. Also, it is too short and only provides melee range level of distance(only 7.5m by default, and with Stretch it increased by 10.875m). Because it is a damage dealing main(and even for procs ability strength also affects strength!!) you can't put Overextended to cut down the strength. And, its delayed blast and limited number of burst in a time forces her to within the area of melee range - without any kit for the survival, of course - results using World on Fire no more than sucidial attempts.

So, WoF either cause really no damage or your Ember is likely to be killed if you try to cause any damage by WoF.

Even if you need for the close area DD, make a spin attack with a whip would be much better, for it will strike faster than WoF and stall the enemy faster than it as well, but what's the point on WoF in the first place? Why you are bothered to pick Ember for you can have the better one by pick a whip, and also able to enjoy the other abilities of the other warframe?

Not to mention that its increased energy consumption drains the energy to cast Accelerant, and Ember already needs heavy investment for the personal durability on the mod slots to run even on the era of 21.75m WoF range so you can't have much spaces left to make up the problem.

 

Fireball

It's a good skill on the paper, for it leaves a DOT area that only need ability strength to increase both damage and area when fully charged. The problem is, its charge rate is horrible even with Natural Talent, make it unable to charge it, dodge the enemy attacks while also shoot the bullets. So, why don't you have a launcher type weapon and blast the enemy and why you are bothered to stick with Ember and forfeit the other good ability?

 

---------------

So, my conclusion is, other than your personal taste, picking Ember is just pointless, for she is competitive with weapons, NOT warframes. And we can pick one warframe and also pick up to three weapons(primary, secondary, melee). So, if you need something what Ember can, you can just pick the weapons that does as much as Ember does(or even better than her), and ALSO able to enjoy the other warframe's ability.

And, even if you need for the ability to kill the enemy, you can do this by Banshee, Equinox, Saryn or Octavia. Equinox and Octavia are simply better at fire and forget style of area damage aura styled warframe as well. And even Volt, Frost and Oberon can damaging a bunch of enemy in the large area, making them superior to Ember. Just for clearing low level extermination missions these warframes are simply better than Ember, and they are even better on the high tier missions as well.

Then, is there any reason to play Ember beside your personal taste? I don't think so.

Ember is my main frame that I use regardless and I agree with all of this.

Especially the energy drain of casting accelerant as she can't regen any energy while WoF is active (which practically ruins the main thing that could make her passive good). 

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

7 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

ASH is a perfect example. They nuked him so nobody wanted to use him, then tweaked him back a little. A net negative overall and he is a worse frame for it, but to you it's a single example of a good rework.

I personally wouldn't consider fixing one of the biggest issues he had a "small tweak". Current Bladestorm is way better/convenient than any iteration of the ability imo.

Edited January 19, 2019 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[PortalsFTW]

Plenty of talk about new warframes in the last devstream, not enough talk about fixing up old ones. I hope DE is serious about improving their older content and bringing it up to par. For instance, an ember rework would be nice.

[Birdframe_Prime]

28 minutes ago, PortalsFTW said:

Plenty of talk about new warframes in the last devstream, not enough talk about fixing up old ones. I hope DE is serious about improving their older content and bringing it up to par. For instance, an ember rework would be nice.

Yeah, but... do you think they wouldn't have reworked Ember if there was an actual definitive plan as to how they would do that? Our threads are all over the place, there's no consistency, everyone has different ideas of where Ember should go, or should be, and the Devs certainly have ideas of their own. But nobody has actually made any decisions yet, so... no rework yet.

They're completely serious about improving all the older frames, along with bringing out new content. But the plan on how to do that? Not so clear.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But the plan on how to do that? Not so clear.

Well, for start they could fix or change how Heat procs work, according to the wiki:
  "a Heat proc applied while Ignite is already in effect will refresh the initial proc's duration and re-apply the panic effect without changing its damage per second."

So, fire blast is detrimental to dealing damage over time with heat procs coming from every single other source, since the lingering dps will not change at all.
While I understand the issues with some of Ember's abilities, mainly Fire ball and Fire blast, little of these issues will be fixed unless the CORE problems stopping them are fixed, such as for Nyx and mind control, AI is still unreliable as oblivion.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Well, for start they could fix or change how Heat procs work

Except what would DE rather change? The entire Heat Proc balance, or make her abilities work better if there's an existing Heat proc on the enemy?

One good suggestion I adopted from one of the threads years ago was that Fire Blast become a more direct damage ability, put it on her 2 instead of her 3, and it has a high chance to Ignite enemies. If the enemies are already on fire, however, it deals multiplied damage (which is added to the multiplier from an existing Accelerant cast) and Extends a heat proc by the original duration plus a percentage while applying the new damage as the base for the proc (basically replacing the existing proc with a new one that lasts longer).

This way they don't have to change how fire works for all the rest of the frames, just Ember.

And this is just the one idea off the top of my head.

It's easier to make an exception for just one frame than it is to rework the base system, and that's likely the route they'll play for (based on everything I've seen before).

[ScytodiDaedalus]

28 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

One good suggestion I adopted from one of the threads years ago was that Fire Blast become a more direct damage ability, put it on her 2 instead of her 3, and it has a high chance to Ignite enemies. If the enemies are already on fire, however, it deals multiplied damage (which is added to the multiplier from an existing Accelerant cast) and Extends a heat proc by the original duration plus a percentage while applying the new damage as the base for the proc (basically replacing the existing proc with a new one that lasts longer).

I don't understand this "Heat Proc Balance", I really don't, I would like an example of changing how it works breaking the balance.

However, changing that functionality to the ability, basically manipulating heat procs for even more benefit, seems like a neat idea for Ember to play around. But does this moving her 3 into the 2 means merging or adding accelerant as the 3 instead?
Because if so the logic behind playing her 2 & 3 is, Accelerant to kill enemies faster; Fire blast to make sure they are busy dying, also making sure they will die Soon™

[sixmille]

Ember is fine, it's just not as good as a press 4 to win warframe anymore, and that's okay. Press 4 to win should NEVER be an option. If anything, other press 4 to win ones should get the Ember treatment. Ember is still an excellent glass-cannon warframe with abilities 2 and 3. Damage buffs are at least on par with Mirage.

Edited January 20, 2019 by sixmille

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

I don't understand this "Heat Proc Balance", I really don't, I would like an example of changing how it works breaking the balance.

Balance was maybe the wrong descriptive, but 'Mechanic' was too strict a definition.

The idea is that rather than changing it across the board for every warframe and weapon in the game would mean that some weapons and even the status that we take from enemies would change for either power creep (for everyone involved) or the worse (in our damage-taken case), we would just change one frame's interactions with the existing system, so as to not make it a deep-dive into the base game functions.

2 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

However, changing that functionality to the ability, basically manipulating heat procs for even more benefit, seems like a neat idea for Ember to play around. But does this moving her 3 into the 2 means merging or adding accelerant as the 3 instead?

Actually this was part of a larger rework idea.

Here, let me try and cut it down a bit, and see if I remember it all in the right balance...

Spoiler

Passive: Overdrive. Enemies on fire increase Ability Strength by up to 35%, enemies that suffer Heat procs after maximum buff has been reached will restore a small portion of Energy. Maximum buff drains over time.

1. Fireball. Cast a ball of fire that bursts on impact and leaves a persistent ball of flame at the impact location. Change: Casting isn't the main function, the napalm ball is. Creates a radius of damage and status chance, which persists based on Duration instead of just a few seconds. The closer enemies get to the middle, the more damage and more chance of Status proc they have. Enemies cannot shoot through the placed fireball.

2. Fire Blast. As I described, a cone-of-effect blast that deals high damage to enemies with a decent status chance, and deals multiplied damage against enemies already on fire, replacing their status proc with the higher damage and duration one if applicable.

3. Accelerant. Becomes an aura of buff/debuff for a duration. Can still be recast for the stun if needed, (although the Fireball defense should mitigate the need for constant recasting) causing a stagger and recovery period, best change for that is to have a guaranteed CC duration on all enemies that can be modded for. All enemies in range of the aura take multiplied damage from Fire, this applied to weapons, abilities, allies and Ember alike. Allies in range of the ability gain 50% Heat damage and additional Status Chance on their weapons.

4. World on Fire. Cast to grant 10 seconds of Casting Speed buffs, reducing the full casting time of abilities by 50% (Note, the current buff increases the speed by 50%, which in mathematical terms only reduces the actual casting time by 30%... which is just weird... so make that a literal 50% reduction in time). After the 10 seconds of casting speed, World on Fire releases in the exact form we know and love, with some limitations: it becomes a Duration of base roughly 15 seconds, and the full Range that it had before the previous nerf. All fire damage inflicted over the course of the ability (including the 10 seconds before it starts) multiplies the damage output. It uses Fire damage so self-buffs, with it having the same range as Accelerant it always deals the multiplied damage to buff faster, allies within range of Accelerant deal fire damage to buff it, Ember's abilities deal fire damage to buff it, but it can't be maintained for the entire mission in that state. It will only ever last around 40-50 seconds if you max that Duration.

So the strategy is no longer spam Accelerant all day long to apply the buff over and over and over to each new enemy that arrives and then toggle on World on Fire for six seconds or so, turn it off, and re-toggle it again for that full range, forget that Fireball and Fireblast even exist...

Now you turn on Accelerant, buffing all allies in range and debuffing all enemies in range, throw down as many Fireballs as you need for defense and consistent application of Status (setting all approaching enemies on fire), press 4 for the casting speed, deal large amounts of damage out with the new Fire Blast, ramping up the base damage of World on Fire, and then run around smashing everything for 30 seconds or so with the massively buffed World on Fire that gets stronger as it goes.

Covers Defense, team/self Buffs, enemy Debuffs, stun CC, Damage and even more Damage. Plus the Passive ramps up your damage and even starts supplying constant energy return for as long as you're using her abilities to set things on fire.

What do you think?

[ScytodiDaedalus]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

What do you think? 

Ok, so after carefully reading this, Ember actually becomes a caster that uses all her kit to keep enemies dying, busy engulfed in flames.

• Fireball finally becomes useful, actually negates areas unlike the current iteration, unsure about how defensive the flames can get; either it will prove very tactical or it will become cheesy
• Accelerant becomes the natural buff on damage, being an aura means you can move around without needing to spam forever, since it's an aura it means the enemies getting close to you are gonna regret it, still means you need to move a lot dish the most of your abilities.
• Fire blast has an use of reigniting even harder whoever is in flames, picking a group of enemies for faster incineration is nice, considering the current WoF is random targetting.
• World on Fire, no longer the set and forget ability, an actual "ultimate" which allows her to quickly use her abilities in succesion to further deal even more damage after a time window.

Now, if there is an issue or question about this is Energy Economy, having no more energy drain abilities means Zenurik can be a go to and so are other ways of getting some free energy intake. Activating WoF can still allow her to quickly burn her energy away to further deal even more damage, having little go to waste

So far all of these ideas seem pretty solid, with these changes should come new cast times specially for Fire blast and Fireball, to me Fireball just seemed to slow to do the boring fire ball punching animation, pretty boring too. (And different animations for Fire blast and WoF... they use the same animation it's painful)

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

Ok, so after carefully reading this, Ember actually becomes a caster that uses all her kit to keep enemies dying, busy engulfed in flames.

So you like it ^^ I just wish a few more people did...

[DeadMansChest]

I feel Ember will never be good as due to how poorly heat damage performs. Corpus don't care about heat and Grineer laugh in their armor. At +200% abilty strength + Accelerant debuff, WoF still takes multiple ticks to kill a Napalm in the level 60+ range which is honestly ridiculous when Saryn's 1 can clear a room full of level 100 Napalms in a matter of seconds.

At minimum she needs to be reworked to be just as ESO-viable as Volt or Saryn

[Azamagon]

On 2019-01-14 at 8:59 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh, they have, she's on that list. What's the hold-up is the actual details.

Pablo himself said it when the Nezha rework dropped; he just had the idea on how to do it at the time, there's all the other frames that need work, like Vauban, Nyx and Ember, but that he only had the ideas for how to fix Nezha at that point. If he'd had the ideas on how to fix Ember, then she'd have been the one instead of Nezha, or she'd at least be in the works too.

They know, believe me, the sheer amount of threads about her is overwhelming. They know.

But how? Now there's a good debate.

I've got a good one from an earlier thread, and I made a comment about it on this one earlier. Here, if you're interested:

  Reveal hidden contents

Passive: Overheat. Ember gains Power Strength for each enemy set on fire up to a cap of 35%, this effect drains over time.

1. Fireball. Cast a fireball at your enemies. On impact it turns into a deadly guardian flame that persists for a long duration, inflicting damage and a high status chance to ignite foes that only increases the closer to the flame they are. If enemies attempt to shoot through the flame, the intense heat will redirect their attacks, leaving Ember and her allies unharmed.

2. Fire Blast. Immolate the foes before you with a deadly heat blast. Deals 2x damage to any enemy already on fire and will extend and intensify the flames.

3. Accelerant. Radiate an aura that coats your foes in inflammable material, causing all instances of Heat damage to be more effective, while allies in range all gain additional Heat damage and bonus Status chance on all weapons. The ability can be refreshed at any time, and all enemies are staggered on cast for a minimum of four seconds.

4. World on Fire. On casting, Ember creates a massive aura that increases casting speed and reload speed for all in range. Any Heat damage inflicted within that area charges up Ember's attack, no matter the source, and after the charge period is done, let the flames begin. For a short duration, Ember is surrounded by an aura of such intense heat that the air itself explodes, and up to five enemies at a time within range are targeted for an intense blast of fire.

Now, why?

Because with this, Fire Status gets a direct and amazing upgrade. The idea is to throw down a Fireball and use it as an actual damage mitigation tool, while enemies that approach you are more and more likely to get a Status proc of Heat the closer they are to the flame (which is proportional, so if you put on a wide range, then max damage and max status chance range is wider too). Then you hit everything with the new Fire Blast, a cone-of-effect cast that deals high base damage, double damage (affected by Strength) to enemies on fire (and multiplied by Accelerant, too, don't forget that), and the ability also adds to the existing procs. Not just refreshing them, as new Heat procs do currently, no, the ability would add in all the new damage, and then extend the on-fire status by an actual Duration.

She no longer needs to have stun CC be her only way of staying alive, is one point to make. Yes stun CC is a functional part of her kit, I haven't forgotten, but the improvement by giving her a conditional, non-self-buffing damage mitigation (since DE specifically did say that they did not want to give her actual, personal damage mitigation) that also applies to anyone in her team that wants to use it, like a Volt Shield... she'll survive absolutely fine through all the content on the star chart, and in a long survival she'll be as good as Volt.

Accelerant switches to a Duration ability, as a simultaneous buff/debuff cast on her 3, no more having to cast and re-cast to get the debuff onto new enemies, and also taking the bonus Heat damage part from the current Fire Blast so that you're giving your allies access to the debuff even if they don't have your damage type. And then there's the recast, which (if you're building for that Duration on all four of her abilities) means you can pick and choose when to CC your enemies, not just stun and re-stun and re-stun.

And finally, the previous World on Fire comes back, bigger and better and specifically Duration based, with a 10 second charge-up window to stop it being spammed like it used to be. You can't turn it on and forget it through a mission, like you used to, you have to actually build up the ability and then use it. With the bonus from Accelerant and the potential damage you could charge up with the ability's absorb phase? This could potentially one-shot enemies past Sortie levels. But only potentially, much like Magnetise, which is another existing ability that works off potential damage.

Ticks the box for Defense, CC, Offense in spades, and Support too. Plus all of the abilities either work together, or contribute to each other. And I haven't even gone into what the Augments would then do on top.

Ooh, and let's not forget the self-buffing on top of self buffing. Setting a bunch of enemies on fire with her 1 and 2, and by the time you're done she has an extra 35% power strength from her passive, add on another 25% from Growing Power, then you cast Accelerant for an extra 60% Strength, and you maintain that by recasting throughout a mission? I'm practically salivating over the potential damage that could give you.

So there's that.

If you'd like the idea.

 

I really, REALLY like what you did for the first 3 abilities! Only thing I'd maybe like to add on, is for Fire Blast's cone to still retain the knockback+knockdown (or slight ragdoll, even?). That makes the ability feel powerful (regardless of numbers).

As for WoF... I dunno, I'm not too fond of purely "charge-up" abilities (even if they have huge power potential) as they take forever and a half before they do anything (and enemies are EVERYWHERE that needs to be dealt with quickly), plus I've grown really attached to the current one's set and forget nature, as I love how it functions so well with the game's parkour and mobility. So yeah, not too keen on that one.
I'd rather leave it more or less exactly as it is in regards to initial and mid-duration effects (maybe with a bit slower "rate of fire" on the fire pillars, to reduce some low level cheese?), but adding an additional effect when it ends: When it's deactivated (or turned off from loss of energy), she emits a radial firewave (similar mechanical effect as current Fire Blast), which ragdolls enemies away from her (similar to current Fire Blast) and with the damage of this wave improved by some kind of buildup, such as heat damage done during its mid-duration effect. That way, current WoF stays intact, Fire Blast's graphics/basemechanic is also kept intact, AND there's a buildup mechanic added to it as well.

But that would just be my take on it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, Azamagon said:

I really, REALLY like what you did for the first 3 abilities! Only thing I'd maybe like to add on, is for Fire Blast's cone to still retain the knockback+knockdown (or slight ragdoll, even?). That makes the ability feel powerful (regardless of numbers).

Thank you, and yes, damn sensible idea ^^

11 hours ago, Azamagon said:

As for WoF... I dunno, I'm not too fond of purely "charge-up" abilities (even if they have huge power potential) as they take forever and a half before they do anything (and enemies are EVERYWHERE that needs to be dealt with quickly),

Now this is why I wanted to make it a really short duration. If we've only got a base 15 second damage window, and a non-negotiable 10 seconds before that damage window happens, then the most we'll ever get out of it with current Duration mods is around 46 seconds.

And when you consider that, then 'potential' damage really has to step up to compensate. So, every bit of Heat damage dealt out by you, your team, ongoing Fire procs, your existing Fireball placements, your Fire Blast that's doing magnified damage against enemies on fire on top of your buff from Accelerant... especially considering there's a casting speed boost for 10 seconds to ensure you get maximum damage going out already... Just casting the 10 seconds buff is a fair cast (if the speed boost is actually worth it) and as for damage, even solo that kind of multiplier will rock up very, very quickly. Also, once that 10 seconds is over, you then immediately have access to that multiplier,, no waiting beyond that.

I fully intend that a change like this would be something capable of melting nearly any level of content you can face Solo if modded and used correctly, and even more content that you would face in a team. To the point that this would be a similar change to the one we got with Saryn; if you use her as your main damage on the team, compliment her, then Ember will be just that powerful. Meanwhile, if you're just starting out, don't have the mods and aren't sure how to play her, then her improved other three abilities will be a competent enough combo that any mis-timing or lack of team synergy will still make her contribute in a meaningful way to everyone and solo content will be absolutely solid ^^

Still, your take isn't a bad idea either.

What I was specifically trying to take away from World on Fire, though, was exactly that set-and-forget aspect. That's the part that caused DE to put on the exaggerated Drain and the decreasing Range. 

[PortalsFTW]

Looks like ember prime is being unvaulted. Nice! Now more people can get ripped off by buying a pointlessly nerfed frame! Remember last year when right after prime access ember was suddenly nerfed into the ground? Seems like a good time to start on that rework.

Edited January 23, 2019 by PortalsFTW

[DroopingPuppy]

On 2019-01-21 at 6:29 AM, sixmille said:

Ember is fine, it's just not as good as a press 4 to win warframe anymore, and that's okay. Press 4 to win should NEVER be an option. If anything, other press 4 to win ones should get the Ember treatment. Ember is still an excellent glass-cannon warframe with abilities 2 and 3. Damage buffs are at least on par with Mirage.

Ember was not the Press 4 to win frame when she was alive, actually. In order to use her, you need to move constanlty to catch the enemy within small 21m distance and also spamming Accelerant and shoot anything you got, and even with these efforts Ember is somewhat lacking than the others already.

For now Ember is not a glass cannon. She never was a cannon, and she is always a glass. Try to using WoF is no more than sucidial attempt so it can't cause any damage and fire proc which is its only meaningful thing on this, Fireball requires horrible casting time even with Natural Talent. Fire Blast is nothing but a laugh. Accelerant is always good but its benefit is only shine when it has the functional ability to support and what it got is lackluster three that unusable even with the best buff it can.

If you ever have seen Ember at least once in the game, whatever your own or your random teammate, you can't say like this, I swear, for what you said is totally diffrent with the real games we play. Else you didn't play Warframe at all.