S.Dust

Why PVP would benefit DE (not a rework conclave post)

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5 minutes ago, LocoWithGun said:

Here's a gameplay design point against PvP. Warframe is really big on power fantasy. Power fantasy and PvP... don't mix all that well. As such you need to strip significant amount of power from PvP and in doing so you strip the WF from the game mode.

?
What game isn't about power fantasy? Some of the most popular dedicated PvP games have actual gods as their characters... LoL, Smite, Dota.

And Overwatch is all about their characters being exceptionally powerful people.
What kind if inane argument was that?

3 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

See, that's the problem-- PVP isn't considered unfun because partners don't play it. Partners don't play PVP because it's considered unfun.

If you want to make WF's PVP more popular, simply encouraging people to play it won't help. A rework from the ground-up is needed, because PVP in its current state is simply more frustrating than enjoyable for the vast majority of players for a wide variety of reasons.

Exactly!
 

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Someone said most people hate it for some reason or another I would argue there is a larger chunk of the community that straight up haven't even managed to experiment a pvp match because of the lack of players or because of the communities negativity.

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15 minutes ago, ReaverKane said:

?
What game isn't about power fantasy? Some of the most popular dedicated PvP games have actual gods as their characters... LoL, Smite, Dota.

And Overwatch is all about their characters being exceptionally powerful people.
What kind if inane argument was that?
 

There's a problem with feeling powerful and wiping the entire map with a press of a button when you're wiping actual other players because those players don't tend to feel very happy about it until they get their own little moment. There are some examples in kill streaks and OW ults but none of that is even close to what you can do to the poor enemies in WF.

There's also plenty of people who think kill streaks and ults and especially hard CC is casual trash in PvP settings and they honestly have a point. But that is a matter of taste I suppose.

It's always a balance of counter play and power moments in PvP which is a nightmare. I don't think OW is even a good example of a PvP game honestly. And then you have snowballing and stacking and a host of other issues PvP games like these need to deal with. Game with years of development and huge studios behind them... not a majority PvE title built very much on PvE concepts which some people think can make such greeeeeat PvP game with just a few minor tweaks and some ad banners.

WF will have good PvP mode the day Overwatch becomes perfectly balanced.

Honestly, these topics are an insult to a PvP games rather than WF. People think that making good PvP is somehow really easy.

Edited by LocoWithGun

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Noticed OP changed the thread title.

 

So I will say that Conclave is still the best place to post PvP ideas / feedback as Conclave is currently the main (only) PvP mode (assuming Lunaro is completely dead). If you want something different, DE are still most likely to notice if you post your wishes there.

 

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7 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Noticed OP changed the thread title.

 

So I will say that Conclave is still the best place to post PvP ideas / feedback as Conclave is currently the main (only) PvP mode (assuming Lunaro is completely dead). If you want something different, DE are still most likely to notice if you post your wishes there.

 

Alright since a couple of people have said this I will put a copy of the post there

 

Edited by S.Dust

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PVP in warframe is something that some enjoy and some people have an unreasonable hatred for with arguments like, the devs could be spending time on better things which is both true and wrong because the devs spend time on somethings that really dont go very far and don't have very good replay value but hey that's how the community views things. I am gonna give a reason why good pvp would benefit DE and bring in new players.

If you look at the top games played on twitch right now what will you notice... they all have a competitive component or a straight forward goal to follow along with; In warframe often times the streamer is just farming things or doing a self thought out goal because the game just lacks things worth doing sometimes which kinda goes back to the games bad replay value, but with pvp you play to win thats the goal you just wanna win and kill things or reach an objective and you might have some epic moments here and there, and maybe can have a bunch of people join and have fun. Warframes PVP to many people is lacking (I think its fun sometimes) but at the same time everyone wants to just let it die and move on but if you look at all the twitch related things Warframe has been doing it is very clear they want to create and audience on twitch, they do prime for prime, they do twitch giveaways for new updates, they do their streams with giveaways throughout the week like prime time and the dev stream on twitch along with giveaways but even with all that, outside of when there is a free item to get most people don't care for warframe streams because you're not watching a story the majority of the time and you're not seeing someone go towards a concrete goal or have fun with a group, if you're in a warframe stream you are probably either there for the streamer or a giveaway not the game. PVP would just allow for a better audience and more interaction with viewers in a just draws more attention. 

Warframe doesn't necessarily need to rework PVP but they could encourage streamers to do conclave streams more and play with viewers and if it goes well then we would see that conclave has the potential to succeed and draw a crowd. 

Enjoy roasting me in the comments and have a nice day.

 Same post but I had it in general originally if you wanna go over and read some of the replies there you go.

Edited by S.Dust
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1 hour ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Warframe offers players the possibility of hosting our own servers, which has some players hosting theirs at 120Hz (for instance, Overwatch ones run at 60Hz) with really high internet speed, providing smooth experiences even for players from other zones (for instance, i'm a south american player living in the Center-South of Chile and still manage to have a smooth experience in NA servers).

You do know overwatch HAS dedicated servers, at least on PC not sure about console. Like because it's an entirely PvP based game blizzard understands that dedicated servers are 1000% necessary, and they make a enough money because of dedicated servers. While on Warframe they shut down trials (raids) because the amount of resources that went into maintenance for the amount of people playing it was not worth it, warframe's PvP has/had half the player base of trials which was already ridiculously small, and dedicated servers would be 10 times the man power and cost of trials. Your entire post is honestly just wrong.

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16 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

You do know overwatch HAS dedicated servers, at least on PC not sure about console. Like because it's an entirely PvP based game blizzard understands that dedicated servers are 1000% necessary, and they make a enough money because of dedicated servers. While on Warframe they shut down trials (raids) because the amount of resources that went into maintenance for the amount of people playing it was not worth it, warframe's PvP has/had half the player base of trials which was already ridiculously small, and dedicated servers would be 10 times the man power and cost of trials. Your entire post is honestly just wrong.

Not arguing against you but when did they say the reason raids were removed was that.

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19 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

You do know overwatch HAS dedicated servers, at least on PC not sure about console. Like because it's an entirely PvP based game blizzard understands that dedicated servers are 1000% necessary, and they make a enough money because of dedicated servers.

Whoosh!

I'm pretty sure i even made a comparison stating how conclave servers are of a higher quality than those used on overwatch despite being hosted by players and not by the game devs.

19 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

While on Warframe they shut down trials (raids) because the amount of resources that went into maintenance for the amount of people playing it was not worth it, warframe's PvP has/had half the player base of trials which was already ridiculously small, and dedicated servers would be 10 times the man power and cost of trials.

The only time DE showed data about game modes trials were seeing barely 0.2% more usage than conclave, however, conclave resources were mainly some small number tweaks to balance gear and an eventual bug that was fixed once and remained fixed after that, whereas raids had a highly vocal community constantly spamming patch notes with "no fix for [x] bug?" Comments, filling bug report subforums with "list of [insert a big number here] unfixed trial bugs", complaining every single time an exploit was removed while also throwing stones at DE every time a bug that had been already fixed made its return to the game. 

As you "might" see, there's no comparison between the amount of resources spent on trials and conclave or how vocally grateful was each of these communities.

19 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

Your entire post is honestly just wrong.

You should inform yourself better before spreading misinformation and claiming that others are wrong.

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15 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I'm pretty sure i even made a comparison stating how conclave servers are of a higher quality than those used on overwatch despite being hosted by players and not by the game devs.

So that's why host migration is one of the most complained about topics /s

16 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The only time DE showed data about game modes trials were seeing barely 0.2% more usage than conclave, however, conclave resources were mainly some small number tweaks to balance gear and an eventual bug that was fixed once and remained fixed after that, whereas raids had a highly vocal community constantly spamming patch notes with "no fix for [x] bug?" Comments, filling bug report subforums with "list of [insert a big number here] unfixed trial bugs", complaining every single time an exploit was removed while also throwing stones at DE every time a bug that had been already fixed made its return to the game. 

As you "might" see, there's no comparison between the amount of resources spent on trials and conclave or how vocally grateful was each of these communities.

I already said that for PvP to even be considered an option dedicated servers are a necessity, which takes stupid amounts of time, resources, man power, and upkeep.  less then raids and I used raids as an example of why de won't put resources into something that at the very least won't even pay for itself. And raids has/had a bigger player base then PvP and it would take less upkeep then dedicated servers.

 

21 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

You should inform yourself better before spreading misinformation and claiming that others are wrong

And I'll say the same to you.

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11 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

So that's why host migration is one of the most complained about topics /s

Feel free to look for host migration topics from PC players in conclave feedback subforum and then report back here with proof of host migrations being the most complained about topic in conclave.

11 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

I already said that for PvP to even be considered an option dedicated servers are a necessity, which takes stupid amounts of time, resources, man power, and upkeep. 

Sure, however, DE made the right decision by giving that task to volunteering players since it makes them free from having to invest such huge amount of resources and still manage to fix the issue.

Btw, you're also comparing Overwatch, a paid game with an e-sport background with warframe, a game where players aren't locked out of anything if they decide not to give a single dime to its devs.

Quote

less then raids and I used raids as an example of why de won't put resources into something that at the very least won't even pay for itself.

Trials were way much more resource intensive than conclave, otherwise these would still be in game or conclave would have been removed along them.

Quote

And raids has/had a bigger player base then PvP and it would take less upkeep then dedicated servers.

Care to post proof of this? As far as i'm concerned, DE showed official data about it once and it showed quite a similar situation for both, conclave and trials (with the main difference of trial players being way too vocal about their mode)

11 minutes ago, stormy505 said:

And I'll say the same to you.

I've already done my homework, however, thanks for the advice.

Edited by ----Legacy----
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PvP to work needs a greater attention to balance to work. 

I think that PvP can provide longstanding value to the game, but so far it has not come to fruition because the way the mechanics were implemented did not result in an engaging enough gameplay for whatever reason.

I could not bring myself to farm rep on Conclave, but remain optimistic. 

Dark Sectors was my favorite flavor of PvP ever implemented in the game. It's too bad that at the time, laggy connections and tying it up to ownership of system nodes by a single clan let to exploits, abuse and a lockdown of Dark Sectors, to an unsolvable level that DE retired the Dark Sector invasions.

I still hope those missions can be ressurrected somehow, detached from the Dark Sector domination expoitation which plagued their initial release.

As for Conclave, I think that borrowing simple things from modern PvE games like Overwatch could make it more dynamic. For example, the ability of switching the character and loadout in-between deaths to change team composition. Loking into the viability of larger teams, with up to 8 players on each side, also comes to mind.

Giving players the ability to create restrictions to the Conclave they are hosting, like "Excalibur with Latron , Lato and Skana only" are also things that happen in a non-obstrusive way on those other games. 

Where I think the game has more opportunity to be successful is if it adds Stalker mode for a non-symmetrical gameplay. It lends itself well to the game because it is already tied in to the lore and the players are used to facing Stalker, I believe it will not be jarring to have Stalker manned by another player.

Other possibilities for PvP gameplay I would like to see explored would be non-symmetrical variants where one player is a "dungeon master" controlling a boss and with the entire map view, with the ability of gaining points to spawn minions, eximus units, and even bosses. Like a tower-defense variant of Warframe. 

Edited by BrazilianJoe
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OP, would you really want streamers and partners to pay increased attention to PvP? Because I can only imagine them constantly talk about lack of dedicated servers, lack of any matchmaking, terrible late joins (why can you even join a session that has only 2 minutes left??). They would also be showcasing (because that's entertaining to watch) broken weapon and waframe PvP combos.

I don't think this would paint Warfarme, a primarily PvE game, in a good light on Twitch, especially for new people who might be curious about the game.

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@S.Dust I disagree with your read of how Twitch and a game's relationship with Twitch goes

Viewers are just as much there for the Streamer as they are the game

The fact that the "top games on Twitch are all PvP" has less to do with the audience living to watch Esports (not to bag on people who do love to watch Esports) and more to do with the fact that we're still in the Fortnight and PuBg craze.

Then there is the matter of replay value. When a streamer plays a PvE game, it's likely a PvE game with an end state. You know, like a final boss. You beat the final boss, and you move onto the next game. That isn't a flaw. It also doesn't hold true for every PvE game (for example, Killing Floor) but it does for most of them. When a Streamer plays a PvP game, they can stream it indefinitely if they want to, because there is no end state

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7 hours ago, ShinTechG said:

PVP can be great in Warframe but first, 3 things need to happen which i don't ever see happening soon.

1. We would need reliable servers all the time. (That p2p hosting does not cut it)

2. This game needs some serious balancing and complete reworking of many abilities before good pvp can be had

3. A lot of closed-minded people here who only know the word "no" without actually giving proper/better solutions needs to go.

 

@S.Dust I think your post has some good points. It's just the current state and future plans of the game would need to dramatically change first.

Here's some other points I would like to bring up.

  • Add something like stamina back into PVP and have it be exclusive there. At least in CoD: Advanced Warfare & Black Ops 3 you can't bunny hop infinity than you can with bullet-jumping in warframe. My reason for saying this is because it can be difficult to shoot a warframe with a weapon at times due to the enemy warframe bullet-jumping and can be frustrating and make PVP not fun.
  • Have a reason for doing it in the first place and make it worth while doing and make it enjoyable, right now PVP is very hard to enjoy due to the myriad of problems it has.
  • You can even try to add back in Clan Vs Clan & Alliance Vs Alliance conflicts but have it be different.Those obviously to benefit clans and alliances. This part might be wishful thinking but that in a railjack-like setting would be awesome.
  • Warframe bans like for example; banning mag due to her ability to kill a lot of enemies quickly with her 4th ability and has a absurd range.
Edited by (XB1)falconpwnch0234
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3 hours ago, BrazilianJoe said:

PvP to work needs a greater attention to balance to work. 

I think that PvP can provide longstanding value to the game, but so far it has not come to fruition because the way the mechanics were implemented did not result in an engaging enough gameplay for whatever reason.

I could not bring myself to farm rep on Conclave, but remain optimistic. 

Dark Sectors was my favorite flavor of PvP ever implemented in the game. It's too bad that at the time, laggy connections and tying it up to ownership of system nodes by a single clan let to exploits, abuse and a lockdown of Dark Sectors, to an unsolvable level that DE retired the Dark Sector invasions.

I still hope those missions can be ressurrected somehow, detached from the Dark Sector domination expoitation which plagued their initial release.

It would be clear to me that they would have to make sure no exploits are able to be done with future conflicts if they were to bring something like this back or something involving clans vs clans and alliance vs alliances. Maybe they can try to figure that out to make it more fair for everyone. Only one can hope.

Edited by (XB1)falconpwnch0234

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6 hours ago, SortaRandom said:

You need to understand-- PVP isn't considered unfun because partners don't play it. Partners don't play PVP because it's considered unfun.

If you want to make WF's PVP more popular, simply encouraging people to play it won't help. You need to make it actually ENJOYABLE, and for that, a rework from the ground-up is needed. PVP in its current state is simply more frustrating than enjoyable for the vast majority of players for a wide variety of reasons.

This is very true. Not sure if the changes I have proposed below would help, but those are the only ideas I can come up with.

20 minutes ago, (XB1)falconpwnch0234 said:

Here's some other points I would like to bring up.

  • Add something like stamina back into PVP and have it be exclusive there. At least in CoD: Advanced Warfare & Black Ops 3 you can't bunny hop infinity than you can with bullet-jumping in warframe. My reason for saying this is because it can be difficult to shoot a warframe with a weapon at times due to the enemy warframe bullet-jumping and can be frustrating and make PVP not fun.
  • Have a reason for doing it in the first place and make it worth while doing and make it enjoyable, right now PVP is very hard to enjoy due to the myriad of problems it has.
  • You can even try to add back in Clan Vs Clan & Alliance Vs Alliance conflicts but have it be different.Those obviously to benefit clans and alliances. This part might be wishful thinking but that in a railjack-like setting would be awesome.
  • Warframe bans like for example; banning mag due to her ability to kill a lot of enemies quickly with her 4th ability and has a absurd range.
Edited by (XB1)falconpwnch0234

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3 hours ago, (XB1)falconpwnch0234 said:

Here's some other points I would like to bring up.

  • Add something like stamina back into PVP and have it be exclusive there. At least in CoD: Advanced Warfare & Black Ops 3 you can't bunny hop infinity than you can with bullet-jumping in warframe. My reason for saying this is because it can be difficult to shoot a warframe with a weapon at times due to the enemy warframe bullet-jumping and can be frustrating and make PVP not fun.
  • Have a reason for doing it in the first place and make it worth while doing and make it enjoyable, right now PVP is very hard to enjoy due to the myriad of problems it has.
  • You can even try to add back in Clan Vs Clan & Alliance Vs Alliance conflicts but have it be different.Those obviously to benefit clans and alliances. This part might be wishful thinking but that in a railjack-like setting would be awesome.
  • Warframe bans like for example; banning mag due to her ability to kill a lot of enemies quickly with her 4th ability and has a absurd range.

Adding a reason to be there will just anger all the people who hate it alot and they will argue that they are having content locked behind a wall.

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5 hours ago, S.Dust said:

Adding a reason to be there will just anger all the people who hate it alot and they will argue that they are having content locked behind a wall.

Isn't everything in warframe behind a wall of some kind? To be blunt, that's a very weak response if you ask me. There must be a reason for everything. With that flawed logic it's like saying if there's a reason it's something that should always be avoided. You can't please everyone it's not going to happen. Embrace that and we can move on with this discussion and hopefully things will go well.

I bet at least some of the people complaining about conclave has played at least several games that have some form of PVP in them (not counting battle royales). assuming that's the case we could try to talk about ideas or systems from said games and what makes them work and how it can improve PVP, be beneficial for long term, and possibly even generate future PVP ideas DE could have in the future.

Edited by (XB1)falconpwnch0234

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First of all Conclave needs SMALL, quality of life fixes:

1. Match/server browser, so players could see how many Recruit and Veteran matches going with how many players,

2. Node on Starchart, most players have no idea there even is PvP in Warframe,

3. New players have equiped only melee in Conclave arsenal, they should start with fully equiped primaries and pistol, I have seen way too many players runing with only Skanas....,

4. Tutorial/Starting quest, more info about Conclave warframe abilities etc.

5. Conclave skins for newer weapons not only for like 4 years old stuff,

6. Increased resources and Credits, most matches are very hard and take up 10 minutes, but you get far, FAR less resources than from ANY missions (even level 1 Earth), so players who dive into PvP fall far behind grind that is the main goal of Warframe,

7. PvP Alarms, with normal rewards like 10k credits or some Mode, for loseing and winning team, but winners get standard more standing and credits, to make AFKing less likely,

After this small fixes and tweaks DE could start making Conclave better, like:

-Stalker Mode, with all anty bulling/anty trolling restrictions (Stalker can't attack objectives, set alarms and have limited time to kill player etc.),

-Solar Rails with Conclave arsenal,

-Dark Sectors? 

 

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1 hour ago, Aramil999 said:

First of all Conclave needs SMALL, quality of life fixes:

1. Match/server browser, so players could see how many Recruit and Veteran matches going with how many players,

2. Node on Starchart, most players have no idea there even is PvP in Warframe,

3. New players have equiped only melee in Conclave arsenal, they should start with fully equiped primaries and pistol, I have seen way too many players runing with only Skanas....,

4. Tutorial/Starting quest, more info about Conclave warframe abilities etc.

5. Conclave skins for newer weapons not only for like 4 years old stuff,

6. Increased resources and Credits, most matches are very hard and take up 10 minutes, but you get far, FAR less resources than from ANY missions (even level 1 Earth), so players who dive into PvP fall far behind grind that is the main goal of Warframe,

7. PvP Alarms, with normal rewards like 10k credits or some Mode, for loseing and winning team, but winners get standard more standing and credits, to make AFKing less likely,

After this small fixes and tweaks DE could start making Conclave better, like:

-Stalker Mode, with all anty bulling/anty trolling restrictions (Stalker can't attack objectives, set alarms and have limited time to kill player etc.),

-Solar Rails with Conclave arsenal,

-Dark Sectors? 

 

i agree with all of these, but "-Stalker Mode, with all anty bulling/anty trolling restrictions (Stalker can't attack objectives, set alarms and have limited time to kill player etc.)," is not something i want to see ever in warframe.

when i play conclave, it's because i want to pvp, when i play a regular mission it's because i just want to do pve. having a player controlled stalker come in and change that would ruin that choice i have because i'd be forced into pvp scenarios often without wanting to do pvp. dark souls can do a similar system because it's designed for it, instead having it stapled on. even if you make it an opt in system, very few people will bother or switch it on based on how many people actually play the conclave in 2019.

Edited by Refticus

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On 2019-01-11 at 5:54 PM, Firetempest said:

To waste time, money, resources you need interest. Interest needs content. Catch 22 and they were already burned by lunaro.

Is it really a waste of time tho? Why not investing the last bits needed to give Conclave or whatever new pvp content might come the final touch needed to be in a solid state? At the one hand lots of players quit the game entirely, because they were burned out of the pve grind and quite a handful set a foot in pvp over the years, but with the lack of work done it couldn't hold them. At the other hand you got competitive players from other games that like to see further development put into Warframes pvp before touching the game. Atm Conclave is suffering due to the lack of polishing work done on the recent weapon changes, none of the newest equipment got implemented and stuff the community has asked about for years, for example a server browser to make matchmaking more appealing, got neglected. (due to development on fortuna and railjack - which could be a great foundation for DS rail wars 2.0 and turn out great)

Lunaro was a rocket league like attempt of DE to implement pvp that does not support the idea of killing. (what pve purists actually suggested at that time) However DE actually realizing it was highly unexpected and therefore hit many cold shoulders right off the bat. (as in another pvp mode when the already existing ones are still unpolished)  But in the end it died because the work that was needed to put it into a solid state wasn't done again. (DE actually tried to fix the things ppl were complaining about at the start, even implemented the dedicated servers, but I guess they decided to put their time and resources into the following quest or whatever)

Either we get some sort of pvx hybrid with railjack or imo some decisions should be made about dedicating a dev/team fully on pvp and how the game modes should be treated in the future. Especially more communication with the community behind such.

Edited by Loxyen
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I saw this somewhere else on the forums. It said PvP would be much better after removing bullet jumping from it. Also bring in sprint speed mods from PvE into conclave.

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6 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

delete - wrong section of forum

 

are you saying this post is in the wrong section if so where would you put it?

 

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