Why PVP would benefit DE (not a rework conclave post)

[spyroxion]

8 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

I left and didn't reque, then 3 minutes later and he whispered me, "gg noob, get good"

And that is why PvP is not welcome in this game.

PvP in games just brings toxicity (that's why I quit LoL a while ago) and ruins the community. What he said to you haven't seen for about 2 years (time since I stopped playing online games with competitive PvP) and I don't want to see it...

[krc473]

14 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Someone who is slower and bigger are at inherent disadvantage in PVP games cause they're harder to hit.

How is being harder to hit a disadvantage? (I think you got stuff mixed up here)

 

I read your whole post, my main question was "why are LoL and OW the best examples of PvP games?"

• Being in the top 1% in said games does nothing to validate your point.
• I struggle to see the relevance of a game you have only played for 16 hours. If it was 1600 hours I could see the relevance, but not 16 hours. I am more than happy to accept my interpretation of the stats is wrong. I have barely played OW.

 

PvP in WF is bad. Simple as that. DE needs to improve it.

Edited January 16, 2019 by krc473

[TheFinalEpic]

9 minutes ago, krc473 said:

How is being harder to hit a disadvantage? (I think you got stuff mixed up here)

 

I read your whole post, my main question was "why are LoL and OW the best examples of PvP games?"

• Being in the top 1% in said games does nothing to validate your point.
• I struggle to see the relevance of a game you have only played for 16 hours. If it was 1600 hours I could see the relevance, but not 16 hours.

 

PvP in WF is bad. Simple as that. DE needs to improve it.

"How is being harder to hit a disadvantage? (I think you got stuff mixed up here)

That was my bad, I fixed it before you wrote it

should say "Someone who is slower and bigger are at inherent disadvantage in PVP games cause they're  easier to hit."

 

I read your whole post, my main question was "why are LoL and OW the best examples of PvP games?"

They're the best examples of PVP games because they're the top PvP games at the moment in player base, and size and popularity.

You can hate on OW and League (Hell i hate them both at times) But I cannot deny their popularity.

League itself is still the most played game in the world so there is something to that that is inherent.

 

PvP in WF is bad. Simple as that. DE needs to improve it.

And PVP in WF is bad, and the entire post is just me explaining that due to the core gameplay of WF (the kits, the stats) , the netcode, that it can't be improved upon.

 

I struggle to see the relevance of a game you have only played for 16 hours. If it was 1600 hours I could see the relevance, but not 16 hours

I have definitely played League of Legends, OW and Warframe much more than 16 hours... lol

If you're quoting from the Overwatch picture  thats 16 hours that I'M IN A GAME PLAYING RANK THAT SEASON. 

 

4136 is Grand Master rank, the highest rank you can achieve in Overwatch besides top 500 players of your region.

 

Being in the top 1% in said games does nothing to validate your point.

 

Being top 1 percent means I'm quite good at these games and know a decent understanding of how PVP games are balanced and experienced since I've played League for 5 years.

I don't know how long you played Warframe but lets say you played for 3 years. You compared to someone whos 1 month, wouldn't you say you know more about Warframe than him?

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

PvP in WF is bad. Simple as that. DE needs to improve it.

Or just don't work on it. Yes, this is harsh, but do we really need PvP?
PvP in WF is such a minor part, that it is basically non-existant. And WF is doing fine "without" PvP.

So people should really ask: Is PvP needed?
Why can't people just play another game for PvP, and if they want to play PvE, then these people can come back to WF.
I always wonder about people saying that a game needs everything in order to be good.

[WhiteMarker]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

PvP in WF is bad. Simple as that. DE needs to improve it.

Or just don't work on it. Yes, this is harsh, but do we really need PvP?
PvP in WF is such a minor part, that it is basically non-existant. And WF is doing fine "without" PvP.

So people should really ask: Is PvP needed?
Why can't people just play another game for PvP, and if they want to play PvE, then these people can come back to WF.
I always wonder about people saying that a game needs everything in order to be good.

[krc473]

5 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

They're the best examples of PVP games because they're the top PvP games at the moment in player base, and size and popularity.

The main problem is that WF's PvP is nothing like these games. I could understand using them as examples in other 5v5 games with a similar objective (say, Smite by Hi-Rez). But WF is just far too different to make the comparison relevant.

• If WF had the same kind of game mode, I could understand it. But as far as I am aware, this does not exist.

Essentially: provide an example that has a similar PvP to WF.

Edited January 16, 2019 by krc473

[Genesix6]

What about this idea that I created myself few days ago

 

 

[TheFinalEpic]

6 minutes ago, krc473 said:

The main problem is that WF's PvP is nothing like these games. I could understand using them as examples in other 5v5 games with a similar objective (say, Smite by Hi-Rez). But WF is just far too different to make the comparison relevant.

• If WF had the same kind of game mode, I could understand it. But as far as I am aware, this does not exist.

Essentially: provide an example that has a similar PvP to WF.

Warframe is a shooter with abilities.

Overwatch is a shooter with abilities.

And tt was never that the point of me being good at the game. The goal of the "resume" is to let you guys know that I have a quite a good understanding of PVP games and how pvp game meta evolves over time and how they change and balanced since I was the "beginning" of both games, and the top player of both game, I've taken the "brunt" of the balance changes.

 

To quote my friend BreAnna, game experience and prowess translates between games, espicially if they're in the same genre.

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[RX-3DR]

Honestly, for a game like Warframe, competitive PvE is the only way to actually create a PvP mode. Game modes where two teams race to complete objectives side by side much like PvP Tower Defense games. However, even that wouldn't really fly very well without constant adjustments to deal with balancing every few days since it would just be a cheese race without constant tweaking.

In the end, it would have to be set up very much like Conclave where you basically have to do a hard reset to 0 with balancing, weapons and mods and work from the ground up. This will hit the popularity and accessibility of the game mode for what is essentially a mechanical recreation of the game. I don't think it would be worth the effort.

[Falconer777]

On this forum, the PvP “Gineer vs Corpus” variant is often given, or the variant where the abilities of warframes (especially -bulletjumps) will be severely limited. In my opinion, this could work and could become a much more popular PvP regime than the Conclave.
The Conclave is too fast and chaotic. There are people who love this mode, so of course shouldn’t delete it, but adding the other options mentioned above would be great.

[TheFinalEpic]

Just now, RX-3DR said:

Honestly, for a game like Warframe, competitive PvE is the only way to actually create a PvP mode. Game modes where two teams race to complete objectives side by side much like PvP Tower Defense games. However, even that wouldn't really fly very well without constant adjustments to deal with balancing every few days since it would just be a cheese race without constant tweaking.

In the end, it would have to be set up very much like Conclave where you basically have to do a hard reset to 0 with balancing, weapons and mods and work from the ground up. This will hit the popularity and accessibility of the game mode for what is essentially a mechanical recreation of the game. I don't think it would be worth the effort.

Your idea is honestly a great one and fully make sense. There might be a meta evolved from certain PVE when 2 teams have to fight modes but that's another topic of balancing.

 

And thats the idea i'm drilling hard in the post:

 

"In the end, it would have to be set up very much like Conclave where you basically have to do a hard reset to 0 with balancing, weapons and mods and work from the ground up. This will hit the popularity and accessibility of the game mode for what is essentially a mechanical recreation of the game. I don't think it would be worth the effort."

You summarized it well so I will quote you.

 

 

[Chewarette]

TL;DR, nobody cares about PvP on Warframe, thanks for letting this subject die.

[TheFinalEpic]

Just now, Chewarette said:

TL;DR, nobody cares about PvP on Warframe, thanks for letting this subject die.

But there are people that care about PVP in Warframe :C why do you think they  post it every week.

[Chewarette]

1 minute ago, TheFinalEpic said:

But there are people that care about PVP in Warframe :C why do you think they  post it every week.

I can post every week on World of Warcraft's forum asking them to implement a Battle Royale mode, that'd be faster if I actually realized it's better to just switch to another game which already has the feature I'm looking for.

[TheFinalEpic]

2 hours ago, spyroxion said:

And that is why PvP is not welcome in this game.

PvP in games just brings toxicity (that's why I quit LoL a while ago) and ruins the community. What he said to you haven't seen for about 2 years (time since I stopped playing online games with competitive PvP) and I don't want to see it...

Yeah PVP brings a level of toxicity that's just inherent, its human nature, especially with the anonymity with the internet.

 

And I hear, and I agree with you. 

 

PVE games should stay PVE if its their core and PVP should stay PVP.

 

I remember this MMO ish like League mode that they tried out for League of Legends and it was quite boring. League of legends champion kits are just horrible to do it and not exagerating when I literally wanted to sleep when I played through it. Similar to how PVP just doesn't work for Warframe due to kits, stats, and net code and how its designed.

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[TheFinalEpic]

16 minutes ago, Genesix6 said:

What about this idea that I created myself few days ago

 

 

Same issue and its literally what I described at the end of the post lol

[Falconer777]

3 минуты назад, TheFinalEpic сказал:

But there are people that care about PVP in Warframe :C why do you think they  post it every week.

For sure. In addition, a good PvP mode perfectly solves the problem of “content drought” and gives the option of an “endless endgame”.

[Loza03]

I think probably that the two best things for PvP would be some degree of Matchmaking (And not the optional recruit conditioning we have now. Not being a new player in with 1000+ hour PvP deities shouldn't be an 'option') and, yes, a hard reset on balancing. Or at least the option for it.

I shouldn't like to see annihilation wiped off the map just because it's pretty fun in short doses if you're matched against players of your skill level. But I agree it's unhealthy long-term. A new system would need to be put in place if it's ever to get past a distraction.

I could see a vaguely class-based system of 'Grineer' vs 'Corpus' where players can use specialised loadouts that mimic existing enemies, don't have bullet jump and are balanced. Maybe even mixing and matching abilities for the sake of the game - for example Navigator on a Rhino with an Ogris for a Bombard. Slow, but with devastating firepower and can guide missiles towards targets. Or a Titania that's permanently in Razorwing mode, carries nerfed Dex Pixia but provides shield regeneration to allies she's nearby and can of course fly, mimicking Shield Ospreys. Classes would be relatively easy to produce since most of them would literally involve chopping and changing weapons and powers from existing loadouts.

[Genesix6]

2 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Same issue and its literally what I described at the end of the post lol

Well aside connection, net problem

Warframe stat already mentioned in there, abilities can't be used since it only melee, not seeing any problem there, so what is the problem exactly?

[TheFinalEpic]

1 minute ago, Genesix6 said:

Well aside connection, net problem

Warframe stat already mentioned in there, abilities can't be used since it only melee, not seeing any problem there, so what is the problem exactly?

No problem but I think for your love for Warframe, you want it to have a bit of everything. And I really don't think theres anything wrong with that. It's similar to say, If you wanted your favorite single player game to have PVP. You love the idea so much because it is your favorite game and you want it to happen. But the execution will be bad and not worth it for most people.

[DerGreif2]

It’s a PvE game... PvP is in warframe not important. Because you have such a high rank in OW I would say that Warframe is not the right place for you. Sorry buddy but PvP should not be the focus of the devs right now.

[Genesix6]

6 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

No problem but I think for your love for Warframe, you want it to have a bit of everything. And I really don't think theres anything wrong with that. It's similar to say, If you wanted your favorite single player game to have PVP. You love the idea so much because it is your favorite game and you want it to happen. But the execution will be bad and not worth it for most people.

Not trying to starting any controversy or anything, but I want to ask is this

No problem? You said the post it has the same issues as the post above, what is the issue exactly?

It depends on the developer of how they excuted a game mode properly, a game can have PvP if properly excuted, a game can have PvE experience if done properly and considering this DE we're talking, might be going a bit off topic here. bounties is a mission that is available in the Cetus and PoE, but the bounties are excuted horribly, they have the same mission like the star chart, bad reward (some are mediocre), and not much of reason to do it. 

[Goodwill]

Great write up and I like how you address the inherent design choices and differences between Warframe and PvP focused games. You are correct that the visual and audio feedback in Warframe was not designed around or for PvP.
 

[DerGreif2]

32 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Warframe is a shooter with abilities.

Overwatch is a shooter with abilities

Warframe is a horde loot shooter.

Overwatch is a teambased arena shooter.

 

besides the part that they are shooters they have nothing in common.

and that comes from a player with a few hundred hours on OW.

[TheFinalEpic]

1 minute ago, Genesix6 said:

Not trying to starting any controversy or anything, but I want to ask is this

No problem? You said the post it has the same issues as the post above, what is the issue exactly?

It depends on the developer of how they excuted a game mode properly, a game can have PvP if properly excuted, a game can have PvE experience if done properly and considering this DE we're talking, might be going a bit off topic here. bounties is a mission that is available in the Cetus and PoE, but the bounties are excuted horribly, they have the same mission like the star chart, bad reward (some are mediocre), and not much of reason to do it. 

Warframe has plethora of issues that I won't get into like you stated. I believe DE is just winging it and just doing whatever and you can see it in the balancing of the game. This is a bad thing but they try their best to make a fun experience for the player so it sorta counters it out.

 

However this motto is not good in a PVP game. That's the issue, the balance of the game with how the game is set up that you have to rewrite the game from the ground up is to make a different game.