Why PVP would benefit DE (not a rework conclave post)

[kicsikorte]

20 minutes ago, Falconer777 said:

For sure. In addition, a good PvP mode perfectly solves the problem of “content drought” and gives the option of an “endless endgame”.

For some people maybe. But there are others (like me), who absolutely hate pvp. The main reason I picked up warframe is because it has no meaningful pvp.
I would hate to see/ being forced to play pvp, just because there are rewards, that are locked to it.

[BrazilianJoe]

OP puts up a very enlightening and sane analysis of why Warframe's current PvP does not work.

While his "Conclusion" is a bit defeatist, his feedback is very valuable as to draw out the critical bullet points of which things need to be worked on, if PvP is to work.

If it's even worth the effort. 

[TheFinalEpic]

4 minutes ago, DerGreif2 said:

It’s a PvE game... PvP is in warframe not important. Because you have such a high rank in OW I would say that Warframe is not the right place for you. Sorry buddy but PvP should not be the focus of the devs right now.

I never wanted PVP in Warframe hehe. I was addressing people who do want it and saying its just not possible

 

[Cuchullin]

Personally I think with the setup of PvP in Warframe is skewed against new and mediocre/casual players as even players who have the movement mechanics down (meaning bullet jumping and shooting well or at least consistently) in the regular game have a better advantage then most and those who basically live in the conclave can take it to an insane level. This can be quite discouraging when a new player or even someone who's been playing a while but doesn't have the best loadout or isn't the best at moving and shooting at the same time at anything that isn't a mob.

Having a PvP element can be fun in Warframe but it would have to be implemented right and in the grand tradition of DE this was implemented but never really refined properly which I believe would improve it drastically. If this were to happen I probably play PvP mode more often rather then every once in a while when I forget how much I get blown away by the competition that I either never even saw or is right in front of me blasting away while bouncing off the walls while I'm desperately trying to keep up and hit the target.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Cuchullin

[TheFinalEpic]

39 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Great write up and I like how you address the inherent design choices and differences between Warframe and PvP focused games. You are correct that the visual and audio feedback in Warframe was not designed around or for PvP.
 

Thanks! I appreciate it a lot that you say that ^_^ That took me a lot longer to write up but I thought I'd share my thoughts and experience in PVP games to those that want Warframe PVP. 

 

I'm really glad someone caught that small portion that I wrote on audio and visual noise/feed back. It's extremely important in games, whether in PVP or PVE

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[TheFinalEpic]

3 minutes ago, DerGreif2 said:

Warframe is a horde loot shooter.

Overwatch is a teambased arena shooter.

 

besides the part that they are shooters they have nothing in common.

and that comes from a player with a few hundred hours on OW.

Warframe becomes a team based arena shooter when you put PVP into it.

[Genesix6]

1 minute ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Warframe has plethora of issues that I won't get into like you stated. I believe DE is just winging it and just doing whatever and you can see it in the balancing of the game. This is a bad thing but they try their best to make a fun experience for the player so it sorta counters it out.

 

However this motto is not good in a PVP game. That's the issue, the balance of the game with how the game is set up that you have to rewrite the game from the ground up is to make a different game.

Make sense I guess, since melee 3.0 is coming I thought it would work like For Honor style with parkour. 

[RX-3DR]

21 minutes ago, Genesix6 said:

Well aside connection, net problem

Warframe stat already mentioned in there, abilities can't be used since it only melee, not seeing any problem there, so what is the problem exactly?

It's too niche and will end up in the same pit as Frame Fighter and Lunaro.

One key problem with a lot of PvP suggestions is that they're shoehorning a small aspect of the game into a concept where there poor compatibility. Conclave does this by shoehorning the basic gunplay, movement and frame mechanics into Unreal Tournament's concept. Because that, all the imbalances of the game has essentially forced them to drop large portions of the original game to start from scratch.

As long as you have that hard reset to 0, you will lose a lot of attention from the general audience since it reduces a lot of the aspects that they might like about the game. When there is a hard reset involved, you either have very little content as with Frame Fighter and Lunaro or you end up with the Conclave problem where you're setting up a separate team just to essentially reintroduce existing weapons back into the same game which then begs the question, is what you're getting out of it worth the effort you're putting into it.

[Falconer777]

1 минуту назад, kicsikorte сказал:

For some people maybe. But there are others (like me), who absolutely hate pvp. The main reason I picked up warframe is because it has no meaningful pvp.
I would hate to see/ being forced to play pvp, just because there are rewards, that are locked to it.

PvP and PvE modes are divided in Warframe, and rightly so. I also would not want them to mix, and that some good guns  were available only in PvP.

[TheFinalEpic]

12 minutes ago, kicsikorte said:

For some people maybe. But there are others (like me), who absolutely hate pvp. The main reason I picked up warframe is because it has no meaningful pvp.
I would hate to see/ being forced to play pvp, just because there are rewards, that are locked to it.

Yeah when Conclave first released, I was super relieved that I was not forced to play anything that I couldn't get in PVE, like mods or weapons for mastery. Since it would just be a grind for me in PVP doing something I didn't like

[DerGreif2]

In the end we don’t need PvP in Warframe. It’s mainly a PvE game and the failures in the past has shown us that it’s worthless to put more effort into PvP.

 

End of the story 

[Cuchullin]

17 minutes ago, kicsikorte said:

For some people maybe. But there are others (like me), who absolutely hate pvp. The main reason I picked up warframe is because it has no meaningful pvp.
I would hate to see/ being forced to play pvp, just because there are rewards, that are locked to it.

I get that myself as I prefer playing a game where I have to fight other people all that time (which  can get old fast if your always losing) however I would prefer at least the option of going into a few rounds to pass the time in between missions without being the punching bag.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Cuchullin

[TheFinalEpic]

16 minutes ago, BrazilianJoe said:

OP puts up a very enlightening and sane analysis of why Warframe's current PvP does not work.

While his "Conclusion" is a bit defeatist, his feedback is very valuable as to draw out the critical bullet points of which things need to be worked on, if PvP is to work.

If it's even worth the effort. 

Lol thanks for your comment on the enlightening and sane analysis comment hehe

 

For the conclusion, i sorta wanted to joke/light heart retrospect on what happened but I didn't mean it to sound defeatist though it still comes out with the same message I suppose haha.

[TheFinalEpic]

44 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I think probably that the two best things for PvP would be some degree of Matchmaking (And not the optional recruit conditioning we have now. Not being a new player in with 1000+ hour PvP deities shouldn't be an 'option') and, yes, a hard reset on balancing. Or at least the option for it.

I shouldn't like to see annihilation wiped off the map just because it's pretty fun in short doses if you're matched against players of your skill level. But I agree it's unhealthy long-term. A new system would need to be put in place if it's ever to get past a distraction.

I could see a vaguely class-based system of 'Grineer' vs 'Corpus' where players can use specialised loadouts that mimic existing enemies, don't have bullet jump and are balanced. Maybe even mixing and matching abilities for the sake of the game - for example Navigator on a Rhino with an Ogris for a Bombard. Slow, but with devastating firepower and can guide missiles towards targets. Or a Titania that's permanently in Razorwing mode, carries nerfed Dex Pixia but provides shield regeneration to allies she's nearby and can of course fly, mimicking Shield Ospreys. Classes would be relatively easy to produce since most of them would literally involve chopping and changing weapons and powers from existing loadouts.

To for your first sentence, it's basically everybody having a rank. Someone who knows what they're doing should fight those who what they're doing, they would definitely need to implement that yes.

And I actually like your idea of Grineer vs Corpus a lot, but that again would have to be built from the ground up and even then, the issue with hosting, and how the game at its base is coded might not even work.

 

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Warframe is a free to play game...I would say just make a free to play version of PVP separate from the PVE and start from the bottom up...Plus you'd save so much space without PVE integrated into it and PVE would have all the space from Conclave for other things as well...It won't cost the players anything other than downloading a new version of Warframe... You can now easily jump back and forth between games since it's not like the 90s where it took forever for to load after switching over...Plus PVP and PVE players would finally be separate from each other and we wouldn't be ruining each other's experience due to bleed over mechanics....

[13QZXXTTX]

Background: 2010s Video games, tried several "Multiplayers" "Free 2 Play" Games. Recently had purchases of an "Live Service" similar but different genre to WarFrame.

Info is basic, but not covered limited, including: Subscription, Micro-transaction, Cosmetic-only, "Markets", Community "Public Relation" Management Fails, PvP.

============================================================================================

Double X2 THANKS for Tenno TheFinalEpic posting a PvP Post (Recent since QZX's Return to WarFrame Forums).

Managed to go offline from Forums for good number of Months. And landed HALO style, oh wait, most BR game is doing that.

About a Year ago, I had come to the conclusion of "PvP need to be scraped altogether", in the end of 2018, Tenno's Division turn into quite the disasters.

About 2 Week ago, I heard from "LifeOfRio" mention PvEvsTeam should be a thing. I agree 1000%, which team is more competitive should be rewarded, MERITS. 

Good Competitive PvE I would recommend is Warner Bros, IOI Interactive's H2 take's on "Ghost Mode". 100% spot on, got to sweat, knowing there are many "Professionals" and "Masters" that make "SpeedRun" a few decades behind.

EASY: DE turn Frame Fighter into Matches and Score System, Competitors win and get some 25~100  (MAX) each. 

HARD: PvE competitors 1v1 (Solo) or 4v4 (Teams) between (recommend) Mission: Spy, Capture, Assasination (Love of H2).

HELL: Impliment former "Amazing Eternal" into WarFrame's PvP. Operators Full Contact Martial Sport, TENNO SNIPERS Battle/Clan Bombardment Fortress.

*****Note: Ideas for example "Ghost Mode", BR, TDM, Fortress Defense is NOT ENCOURAGED to be "copy" into WarFrame, respect copyright to origin and creative development.*****

[TheFinalEpic]

29 minutes ago, Cuchullin said:

Personally I think with the setup of PvP in Warframe is skewed against new and mediocre/casual players as even players who have the movement mechanics down (meaning bullet jumping and shooting well or at least consistently) in the regular game have a better advantage then most and those who basically live in the conclave can take it to an insane level. This can be quite discouraging when a new player or even someone who's been playing a while but doesn't have the best loadout or isn't the best at moving and shooting at the same time at anything that isn't a mob.

Having a PvP element can be fun in Warframe but it would have to be implemented right and in the grand tradition of DE this was implemented but never really refined properly which I believe would improve it drastically. If this were to happen I probably play PvP mode more often rather then every once in a while when I forget how much I get blown away by the competition that I either never even saw or is right in front of me blasting away while bouncing off the walls while I'm desperately trying to keep up and hit the target.

I think what you're asking for a is a Rank system, so someone who knows what they're doing fight those who know what they're doing.

 

But the real issue is what you said, the mobility system, it just doesn't work well with the net code and in a PVP settings and would hav eto outright be removed.

[TheFinalEpic]

28 minutes ago, Genesix6 said:

Make sense I guess, since melee 3.0 is coming I thought it would work like For Honor style with parkour. 

I think you just wanted a new que with just melee only and that's fine but again comes back to the issue is it fun to play and sustainable and balanced with the current base of the game.

[TheFinalEpic]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Warframe is a free to play game...I would say just make a free to play version of PVP separate from the PVE and start from the bottom up...Plus you'd save so much space without PVE integrated into it and PVE would have all the space from Conclave for other things as well...It won't cost the players anything other than downloading a new version of Warframe... You can now easily jump back and forth between games since it's not like the 90s where it took forever for to load after switching over...Plus PVP and PVE players would finally be separate from each other and we wouldn't be ruining each other's experience due to bleed over mechanics....

That's what I stated in my post, the current PVP system is imported from PVE and it cannot work as a sustainable PVP.

 

And its what a lot of people suggest... to just remake it from the ground up but the thing is it worth the time and resource? for the 0.5 percent player base? Probably not.

Its basically asking DE to make 2 games, one that is enjoyed by a lot of people and one that has a very niche player base.

 

DE is still a business in the end and they need to make money and monetize their work, just as anyone else. Nothing is truly "free". And there comes your answer.

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[Cuchullin]

2 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

I think what you're asking for a is a Rank system, so someone who knows what they're doing fight those who know what they're doing.

 

But the real issue is what you said, the mobility system, it just doesn't work well with the net code and in a PVP settings and would hav eto outright be removed.

A rank system is probably what I was talking about. I may able to live with the movement mechanics if literally all the maps in PvP didn't have walls all over the place. I know there's the whole 360 motions thing that Warframe is known for but would it really kill you to have a little variety that would incorporate at least some strategy like having open areas mixed in with areas you can sneak around and have it procedurally generated like on the star chat maps. If nothing else it could be more interesting then watching an opponent fly by between two pillars shooting at you with crit damage while you face-plant into a wall when you try doing the same thing wither running after or away.

[TheFinalEpic]

29 minutes ago, 13QZXXTTX said:

Background: 2010s Video games, tried several "Multiplayers" "Free 2 Play" Games. Recently had purchases of an "Live Service" similar but different genre to WarFrame.

Info is basic, but not covered limited, including: Subscription, Micro-transaction, Cosmetic-only, "Markets", Community "Public Relation" Management Fails, PvP.

============================================================================================

Double X2 THANKS for Tenno TheFinalEpic posting a PvP Post (Recent since QZX's Return to WarFrame Forums).

Managed to go offline from Forums for good number of Months. And landed HALO style, oh wait, most BR game is doing that.

About a Year ago, I had come to the conclusion of "PvP need to be scraped altogether", in the end of 2018, Tenno's Division turn into quite the disasters.

About 2 Week ago, I heard from "LifeOfRio" mention PvEvsTeam should be a thing. I agree 1000%, which team is more competitive should be rewarded, MERITS. 

Good Competitive PvE I would recommend is Warner Bros, IOI Interactive's H2 take's on "Ghost Mode". 100% spot on, got to sweat, knowing there are many "Professionals" and "Masters" that make "SpeedRun" a few decades behind.

EASY: DE turn Frame Fighter into Matches and Score System, Competitors win and get some 25~100  (MAX) each. 

HARD: PvE competitors 1v1 (Solo) or 4v4 (Teams) between (recommend) Mission: Spy, Capture, Assasination (Love of H2).

HELL: Impliment former "Amazing Eternal" into WarFrame's PvP. Operators Full Contact Martial Sport, TENNO SNIPERS Battle/Clan Bombardment Fortress.

*****Note: Ideas for example "Ghost Mode", BR, TDM, Fortress Defense is NOT ENCOURAGED to be "copy" into WarFrame, respect copyright to origin and creative development.*****

What the hell did I just read lol

14 minutes ago, Cuchullin said:

A rank system is probably what I was talking about. I may able to live with the movement mechanics if literally all the maps in PvP didn't have walls all over the place. I know there's the whole 360 motions thing that Warframe is known for but would it really kill you to have a little variety that would incorporate at least some strategy like having open areas mixed in with areas you can sneak around and have it procedurally generated like on the star chat maps. If nothing else it could be more interesting then watching an opponent fly by between two pillars shooting at you with crit damage while you face-plant into a wall when you try doing the same thing wither running after or away.

I think the walls were meant to encourage this sorta thing, DE is quite proud of their mobility system in the game and they wanted to show it off, but this is double edge sword since it just doesn't work well for balancing in PVP.

 

As for the maps thing, DE is very inexperienced in making a balanced PVP map, let alone multiple ones of it.

League of Legends has once map for a reason, its a base for EVERYTHING to be balanced around, having multiple maps is a nightmare to balance around with the multitude of Champions.

You could say like battlefield V and call of duty has multiple maps but then apply the inverse. They have a stable 5 classes (battle field) or 1 class (call of duty, everybody is the same basically)to balance around as a base and have the maps balance around those 5 or 1 class.

 

For League of Legends, you have the map as a base to balance around  so that the 140 champions can be balanced around that one map.

 

Warframe has multiple maps AND 30 something warframes (idk the exact number) its a mess.

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[Olphalarepth]

2 hours ago, spyroxion said:

And that is why PvP is not welcome in this game.

PvP in games just brings toxicity (that's why I quit LoL a while ago) and ruins the community. What he said to you haven't seen for about 2 years (time since I stopped playing online games with competitive PvP) and I don't want to see it...

I can totally understand you believe me but the reasoning is just faulty. PvP is not forced upon players, you don't want to pvp? don't do it. Saying that pvp brings toxicity is just not true and even unfair to some extent.

I despise pvp on games that feature a pve content. We can argue that DE has bigger plans for the game in general but pvp-ers asking for a bone tossed their way have a point since conclave is a joke of a mode, unrewarding, unbalanced and totally not fun. Not saying that it should be the main focus now but DE should at least waste a couple of words to let us know if something is even brewing for the conclave or if they even care for this mode at all because, if so, I'm sure many people would finally put their hopes to rest and focus on the main game since it's unlikely they were playing warframe for the pvp in the first place.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Olphalarepth

[Cuchullin]

16 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

I think the walls were meant to encourage this sorta thing, DE is quite proud of their mobility system in the game and they wanted to show it off, but this is double edge sword since it just doesn't work well for balancing in PVP.

 

As for the maps thing, DE is very inexperienced in making a balanced PVP map, let alone multiple ones of it.

Fair point. Perhaps if there was a better single map like the league of legends one you mentioned that allowed for strategic play other then wall jumping off everything, maybe with bonuses if you do things a certain way.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Cuchullin

[13QZXXTTX]

36 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

What the hell did I just read lol

DE doesn't have another Triple AAA Development and backing of Large Game Corporations. Any big PvP Games all headed "down the hills" into the endless Void battles for EVEN more fractions-percentile of "Gamers".

Good Luck getting the "Canadian Gov" to fund DE, if only.

Too Long Did Not Read:

Conclave is Loss, Implement into other Game-mode for WarFrame. DE can't "Focus" on another newer Game Title entirely(2018). WarFrame needs DE's attentions.

Edit: *other Game-mode for WarFrame* +add Stalker vs Tenno Teams. (Not new, or hyped).

Edited January 16, 2019 by 13QZXXTTX

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

47 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

That's what I stated in my post, the current PVP system is imported from PVE and it cannot work as a sustainable PVP.

 

And its what a lot of people suggest... to just remake it from the ground up but the thing is it worth the time and resource? for the 0.5 percent player base? Probably not.

Its basically asking DE to make 2 games, one that is enjoyed by a lot of people and one that has a very niche player base.

 

DE is still a business in the end and they need to make money and monetize their work, just as anyone else. Nothing is truly "free". And there comes your answer.

You can just toss the star chart out...you'd only keep the current PVP maps, open worlds, Archwing maps, and whatever Rail Jack is going to sail around in...and then expand depending on popularity of modes and mechanics

De already worked on a hero based "PVP only" game, so it's not like they can't just transfer the prior assets and spend a year on a PVP project... They don't even have to work on it since they could turn it over to another developer like how they did the original game for the Switch. it already has a market due to the Warframe brand...I can't see it being really large at first...but neither was Warframe PVE when it first launched..

Personally I'd toss normal PVP out of Warframe and call it a day...Conclave players so desperately want it to become a time to kill PVP game and are constantly coming up with ideas about how to make it great for them....   YET  ....anyone who provides any kind of positive alternative to the run of the mill K/D death match...it's always NOPE..Then they get their feeling hurt because PVE players says NOOOOO to anything they suggest, which has been since year one on the forums...

Yeah, DE is business and it should focus conclave for PVE players since that is the largest user base already established and produce side by side PVP like what Bungie introduced last year. with team competitions against hordes... They should be adding Death Races/Indiana Jones and more sports games since the player base wanted Lunaro to be Rocket League with Warframes but, instead they got some lag fested love letter to a obscure top down browser game from the 90s. Of course that failed...

They should take apart Conclave and deliver all it's assets and tools to the Dojo's new Obstacle course and allow the player base and clans to come up with their own variations of PVP like Bungie's Forge World...and see what the player base can create using Primetime and dev streams to highlight the more creative creations... 

Conclave so far seems to stubbornly want what every other game has to offer and does better when it comes to PVP in Warframe...instead of looking for PVP/PVE alternatives to engage the larger established PVE player base.....

Edited January 16, 2019 by (PS4)FriendSharkey