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Nyx still needs more love

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I've liked Nyx because I have always liked here theme. 

However she is quite dated and her rework is more of a visual/audio only rework.

Her 1st, though having the ability to increase the controlled strength output, is still lacking. The AI is not good enough for it to be useful. Especially in this age of Warframe where everyone is playing DPS/nuke frames. 

Her 2nd is the same thing as before. It looks and sounds cooler, but the charging to cancel the bolts so I can recast it? Why? This ability needs to be scrapped completely and have a updated, synergy ability for chaos.

Her 3rd still works as intended and really doesn't need anything.

Her 4th is still boring by just levitating still, but can be useful. No, I am not equipping the augment which should be default on her by now. It needs more. 

Look at the reworks you guys have done up to now. Majority of them have revamped and increased player volume on those frames.

Though Nyx is still barley used. 

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In my opinion, Nyx 1 and 4 abilities  are the things that make her laughable 

the AI on the minion is so damn dumb, I think is even worse now that follows you instead of fighting by its own

And guess what, DE hasn't fixed the mind controlled target not being able to bypass defense and interception progress even if this was requested a lot of times in the warframe section.

Absorb is a joke at high levels, especially for the grineer.

Edited by -Sentient-
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I find Nyx is actually worse off now than when they "Gave her some love".

She's far inferior as a CC frame and her kit has less natural synergy than it had before.

Bolts was used to Disarm and Stun enemies during Chaos and it was also used as touch up CC on add units instead of re-casting Chaos and losing track of your duration timers. Now that she can only have one instance of Chaos active at all times her previous Bolts Rad proc is needed more than ever for it's touch up CC, esp at long range and because she can only have one active Chaos at a time sacrificing Power Range in order to strip armor is a lethal trade in stats.

Her Pacifying Bolts was dumped on by her Bolts rework as it will now at best Stun 6 enemies. They did not fix the bug where other animations like an Impact proc will overwrite the stun prematurely and added another bug where the stun wears off when the enemy is not longer affected by Chaos. Two completely different CC effects.

Her Mind Control is worse for distracting enemies by blocking corridors due to it's very short leash and nothing really changed with her 4th.

Oh, lets not forget her passive does just about nothing compared to her previous one which was far superior for her and groups.

I played Nyx for almost 6 years but I've hardly a reason to play her now. She just isn't good at anything now.

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Aug or not, absorb still draining energy for damage absorbed makes it a horribly energy hungry ability. Took nyx against profit taker and my energy either got chunked or fully drained, and it even commonly happens in normal starchart levels despite having good efficiency. 

 

Bolts being single cast is also bad, considering it's new effects aren't really that strong anyways.

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9 minutes ago, -Bv-Concarne said:

Aug or not, absorb still draining energy for damage absorbed makes it a horribly energy hungry ability. Took nyx against profit taker and my energy either got chunked or fully drained, and it even commonly happens in normal starchart levels despite having good efficiency. 

 

Bolts being single cast is also bad, considering it's new effects aren't really that strong anyways.

Don't forget number of volts is cap at 6, can't be changed by ability strength like before.

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They said they were going to look at Absorb and only mentioned Absorb as the base ability. They even mentioned "For those who know how to use it" which I found funny since that ability has always been fine. Not great but used properly it was another CC, objective protection and Panic button. Nothing needed to be changed outside that moment of vulnerability she has after releasing the cast when she's still unable to move yet.

Assimilate is handy but I hope players get that Nyx never actually needed it.

I'm not talking Sorties either. I'm talking lvl 350 Solo Void Defense. She was that secure in her ability to CC.

Nyx could CC so well she never got hit in the first place. Don't get me wrong. I use Assimilate but it's to anticipate incoming damage, regain control of a situation and function as a safety net. It doesn't let Nyx tank big enemies and never has. You will always end up with no energy if you try to use it constantly.

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They already have a lot of feedback. So far it seems like just about all of it was ignored or brushed aside.

I think she's inferior to the previous iteration for many of the same reasons as Xzorn as well as a few others. Plenty has been said already by numerous players.

Outside the niche cases, Absorb will be mostly unused for obvious reasons. They have to pull a major rabbit out of their hat to get me to care about it in any meaningful way. Note: I have never once used Assimilate.

I have found I get similar results from playing Revenant solo. It's pretty effective with a Huras Kubrow(inviso-dog), haha. It's a decent substitute but it's not the same. I have barely touched Nyx since the tweak. 😔

Edited by ArcKnight9202

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26 minutes ago, ArcKnight9202 said:

I have found I get similar results from playing Revenant solo. It's pretty effective with a Huras Kubrow(inviso-dog), haha. It's a decent substitute but it's not the same. I have barely touched Nyx since the tweak. 😔

 

Soon as those changes went live I bought some Loki Tennogen. There's always been a war over the throne for #1 CC frame between Loki and Nyx. I preferred Nyx because she was more involved but they were about equal in performance, esp after the stealth multiplier changes but now Loki wins easy.

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1. Mind control now bypass defenses and interception kill requirement

 

2. Mind control now change to Specter AI (follow and stay position)

 

3. Mind Control gain pseudo exalted weapon from current equipped weapon. (Best for faction weakness)

 

4. Psychic Bolts now force command Mind Control and Chaos to attack debuffed enemies (not override stay position command by Nyx to Mind Control, but override target to debuffed enemies). This mechanic also force mindcontrol and chaos target to ignore near enemies or another chaos target).

 

5. Psychic bolts recastable but replace current debuffed enemy to new debuffed nearest target.

 

6. Psychic Bolts debuffed enemies now take 500% extra damage from Mind Control and Chaos targets (synergy to both abilities).

 

7. Psychic bolts new augment - increases Mind Control and Chaos targets movement speed by 50% until duration run out or debuffed enemies are killed.

 

8. Absorb base range is 20m.

 

9. Absorb proc all absorbed physical and elemental status effect by 50% (power strength increase).

 

Now if DE implement some of these that can be great.

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Points 1,2 and 8 yes please. Point 4 would be good, but not necessary.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb XenMaster:

3. Mind Control gain pseudo exalted weapon from current equipped weapon. (Best for faction weakness)

Please not, it does not make sense, neither thematic nor logic (except you want to give him your weapon). Just give them a bonus based on your Ability Strength.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb XenMaster:

5. Psychic bolts recastable but replace current debuffed enemy to new debuffed nearest target.

Just revert it to the old spammable mechanic, it wouldn't be OP as other frames can reduce Armor map-wide.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb XenMaster:

6. Psychic Bolts debuffed enemies now take 500% extra damage from Mind Control and Chaos targets (synergy to both abilities).

Could be nice, but is not necessary, as you already completly removed Armor/Shield.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb XenMaster:

7. Psychic bolts new augment - increases Mind Control and Chaos targets movement speed by 50% until duration run out or debuffed enemies are killed.

No, if I want an Augment for her 2nd Ability it should effect her 2nd Ability and not her 1st and 3rd.

 

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For Nyx's mind control I wish they'd sort of do something similar to how Emma Frost's mind control worked in Marvel Heroes. When you cast mind control on something, it would place a debuff/DoT on them until they "died." Instead of actually dying (though it would count as a death for loot drops + mission progression) the enemy would then become your mind-slave. It would be permanent until you released it, even between missions (they could add a level cap of some kind so you can't bring some level 200 enemy around from an endless, or automatically scale any MCed enemy to a specific level, maybe automatically changing to whatever level the enemies currently spawning are?). In Marvel Heroes your MC also couldn't die, it was just downed temporarily and then got back up. In Warframe the MC is currently essentially invulnerable for the duration, they could just leave it that way for simplicity if they don't want to go to the trouble of deciding how to scale the health/armor/shields of everything to make an MC usable. 

This way you could pick your favorite kind of enemy/slave and just bring them around with you everywhere you go like a pet. To release it they could add a long-press function to the 1. Releasing it would make it die or vanish and let you get a new one. 

edit: Just to add another idea to how the MC weapons could work, possibly give Nyx the ability to mod primary, secondary and melee weapons and depending on what she MCed and what weapon they used, it would apply the appropriate weapon mods to that weapon. Or just pick one type and apply them to anything. They could also add a modifier to the enemies base weapon stats when MCed on a case by case basis to make them all usable. This way your MC weapon could be about raw damage in some cases or utility via some kind of elemental mods. If they really want to go overboard with it they could add some special MC exclusive mods you could throw in them too that did things like tranfers X% of damage taken by Nyx to her MC (basically just DR if the MC is invulnerable), generates X health/energy/Psi when dealing damage or enemies hit are automatically affected by chaos etc. Basically they'd just be MC specific utilitity mods you could choose to sacrifice damage for. They could have a bunch of different ones, either add them around to random enemies or if it's possible maybe just make them drop from anything but only for Nyx so you just gather them by playing her. That was probably unrealistic, but it would be neat...

I agree with others on Psychic Bolts. This at least needs to be made spammable again. The current mechanic is too clunky.

For non-augmented Absorb, I think we could again look at an Emma Frost ability from Marvel Heroes. In that game there was an ability called "Kneel Before Me." It drew lesser enemies in and made them kneel before her (they'd actually walk to her and do a kneel emote for the duration) until the end of the duration in which she released an AoE explosion. It actually could even make stronger enemies and bosses kneel if they weren't currently CC immune (there was a strong diminishing returns/immunity aspect with CC on some enemies in that game I believe). I think a similar mechanic would make Absorb a lot more interesting. It would basically be like an Octavia resonator (when no mallet is around) with a larger range, luring enemies to her before she blows them up. Instead of scaling damage by having enemies shoot the absorb, the damage could scale with a percentage of each enemies HP that was lured into the explosion radius. Nyx would still be immune to damage during absorb. Enemies that can't be affected by resonator/lantern type effects would ignore this as well.  

I think that actually fits the psychic theme of Nyx better than the current iteration of Absorb. The augmented version could remain the same, allowing her to move and scaling damage based on absorbed damage instead of the new mechanic.

If they don't want you to be able to channel Absorb with this new mechanic for too long a period of time, they could also consider adding a secondary resource that was used by her 4 instead of energy. IE: every chaosed enemy killed + your MC dealing damage + psychic bolts affecting targets could give you "Psi" or whatever the new resource is called. Channeling her 4 would use up this resource instead of energy. The rate of gain and drain could then be balanced separately without worrying about energy efficiency and EV etc. The augmented version could potentially also use this resource and have the energy drain from absorb removed. If necessary, the amount of resource gained while absorb was active could be reduced (so that you can't gain enough resource for infinite channel from dying chaosed enemies or your MC attacking).

Edited by Borg1611

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The psy bolts were easy to use, now they aren't, the "hold to cancel the effect before recast" isn't intuitive.

Because of their low cost and fast recasting, I was used to use them just to tag/track the enemy faster. The new mechanic completely changes its usage and overshadows the usefulness of the new debuff.

The rest is ok. I really like Nyx, hope in more tweak for her in the future.

Edited by bradbury2k2
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I agree, and I don't think Nyx's rework really addressed her core issues, so much as tack more stuff onto her in the hopes that she'd feel less bad. Evasion chance is fiddly, and isn't all that helpful against squishy frames in high-level environments where a single direct hit can be lethal. Being able to pump your Mind Control target full of extra damage looks impressive when you're in the Simulacrum and trying to do a video on how Nyx supposedly deals damage now, but in reality is still hampered by the MCed enemy's AI, notably their tendency to do things like take cover or retreat when one would want them to go all-out. Psychic Bolts are finally useful, but still not interesting, particularly since percentage armor reduction has increasingly become this generic form of frame utility (it also doesn't really help her Chaos deal that much more damage). Chaos is a decent, if slightly inconsistent CC effect, though one that's significantly hampered by the drastic differences between enemy damage and enemy health. It's also fallen to the wayside in a horde mode metagame where enemies are expected to funnel themselves towards the player at maximum speed, causing its CC to become a hindrance more than a help in some cases (including in defense missions, where Nyx is supposed to shine). Absorb is still not a great damage ability, again because enemy damage doesn't work well against enemy health, but its baseline immobility effect also continues to grate in a game that is meant to emphasize movement and rapid action.

In summary, there are two main problems to Nyx's kit:

  • She's still reliant on old design that's too slow for the current game: Nyx is one of those old frames whose gameplay largely boils down to standing in the middle of a crowd and pressing buttons to unleash radial effects upon her enemies. These effects are better now, but the end result is still that, by the time she's done casting her stuff, the enemies around her are dead, and she's probably three rooms behind from her team. She needs to be more fluid, and she needs to be able to fully function even in missions that don't focus on static, defensive objectives (if Nidus can do this, so can she).
  • Her core fantasy is at odds with the massive rift between enemy damage and durability: At the core of her gameplay, Nyx is supposed to be a frame who turns enemy forces against themselves, mainly by making enemies damage themselves one way or another through her 1, 3 or 4. This could give her great damage capabilities in addition to crowd control, if it weren't for the fact that enemies deal minuscule amounts of damage relative to their own health. This is because enemy damage is balanced against the player's health pool, whereas enemy health is balanced against player damage output: players can perhaps increase their effective health by a factor of ten, more even if you factor in abilities, but routinely increase their damage hundred- or even thousandfold, compared to their base. Thus, enemies that deal hundreds of points of damage per hit (which is a lot) may have tens, if not hundreds of thousands of effective hit points, which makes any self-damage carry little to no impact. By contrast, the exact reverse issue is precisely what causes self-damage on Tenno weapons to make no sense either, as any instance of self-damage without some sort of cap or mitigation effect deals so much damage relative to player health that it will be lethal even against tank frames.

With this, what I think needs to happen:

  • Some of Nyx's abilities need to be replaced, others need to be sped up: I still think Nyx's 2 needs a more thorough redo, and her 1 could probably be turned into some kind of enemy possession effect, as even now her 1 still feels like a clunkier, single-target version of her 3. Meanwhile, her 4 should probably let Nyx move as a baseline.
  • The gap between damage and health needs to be closed: In general, any sort of effect that spawns minions from enemies tends to be bad because of this gap (including Inaros's new augment), as do damage reflection effects (one of the reasons why Unairu's unpopular), so fixing this systemic issue could benefit many more people than just Nyx. There are two main ways to approach this, imo: 
    • The more short-term approach could be to multiply enemy damage and player health by the same, large amount, which could bridge the gap with only some numbers inflation on the player's health bar as a tradeoff (it could also make players feel like they got a buff, even if they don't in practice). 
    • The second, more long-term approach could be to take out mandatory damage mods, and deflate player damage and enemy health: many players are aware that our weapons are full of mandatory mods that do nothing except multiply our raw damage output, which causes high-level players to be several orders of magnitude stronger than newer players based purely on power. Taking out these mods, and rebalancing our damage and enemy health accordingly, would not only bridge the gap between enemy health and damage, but also bring us all down to a much more reasonable window of power, where DE doesn't have to deal with the nightmare of designing content that's accessible to newcomers, yet also challenging to veterans (DE had to add an entirely new set of overstatted elite enemies to Orb Vallis, for example, to distinguish them from significantly nerfed baseline units). This would be perceived as a nerf by some players in the short term, but ultimately would lead to strictly better gameplay. 
Edited by Teridax68
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vor 33 Minuten schrieb Teridax68:

The gap between damage and health needs to be closed: In general, any sort of effect that spawns minions from enemies tends to be bad because of this gap (including Inaros's new augment), as do damage reflection effects (one of the reasons why Unairu's unpopular), so fixing this systemic issue could benefit many more people than just Nyx.

+1 for this

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I think some of her abilities should try to veer away from being a glorified Rad proc. 

 

Absorb itself is kinda meh... Offensively at least. Defensively, I've been able to protect defense points by just standing there, absorbing all the damage. But when it's shot back out... It disappears 5 meters away from me. Kinda wierd and clunky to work with, especially with my 200%+ Range setup.

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