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Xaxma

Vauban is in a wheelchair.

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1 hour ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Again this response is literally "its bad so replace it with something functionally identical."

There lies the problem. Instead of buffing what is there so its good you want it replaced with something that functions exactly like it but looks differantly

If you think for a second that will be any better you are missing the problem entirely. 

The problem is a Tesla that has to be charged to grantee procs, that slows down Vauban's gameplay, would need a massive damage increase to make it viable for its energy cost. Also lets be honest here people have been asking for a modifiable turret and we would need a modifiable Tesla (I have suggested to people a exalted grenade bandoleer) to match whats been put forth by the community. So "functionally identical" is wrong. A stationary set of grenades you can spam or a (maybe few) turret(s) that can target enemy's at range. People also seem dead set on a turret (I am not but thats just me) for the reasons I mentioned earlier in this forum. TD:LR Vauban is based on a real life french engineer and people seem to be stuck on the current archetype in games today and want to see it applied to Vauban. 

 

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Unpopular Opinion

Vauban isn't bad.

Hes not Wukong thats for sure. But he basically lives and dies with Bastille. Also if you do a comparison on his base stats (as are listed on the wiki compared to every other frame) you quickly realize there all in the bottom 5 all across the board (I dont recall though if the wiki has been updated recently). This in turn effects how effective defensive mods scale on him respectively and means that when fully modded for defense he loses out on all of the mods needed to effectively preform the only thing hes good at CC

 

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

Keep in mind that vauban continues to be in good shape, it all depends on the player, don't expect to use him more often, to increase efficiency or be more helpfull just because a few changes are made.

Absolutely wrong. If Vauban's base stats actually lined up with how beefy he looks this wouldn't be so much of an issue. As stated above all of his base stats (armor,health,sheilding, sprint speed, and energy) are very low. When fully modding for defensive's he lowers his effectiveness of his actual purpose. This also means companions/moas when paired with Vauban are less durable then compared with other frames (imagine how much HP my Kavatt has when paired with my 8k Inaros) thus lowering there uptime and synergy with health return mods such as Pack Leader and Hunter Recovery. In the end though If your not pushing what people would consider 'endgame" its all meaningless since non prime Vauban can clear all of the star chart. 

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13 minutes ago, zen625 said:

TD:LR Vauban is based on a real life french engineer and people seem to be stuck on the current archetype in games today and want to see it applied to Vauban. 

I want to see it applied to a new frame, so that we can truely get the big deployable exaulted turrets. Basically i want axton from bl2 ^^

 

As for tesla, again base damage of 1000 and make it so the charge balls just buff nearby ones instead. Then you can spam a few then charge the entire group. Faster and more cost efficent.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

I want to see it applied to a new frame, so that we can truely get the big deployable exaulted turrets.

I didnt want to mention this but.... i have a frame concept im secretly working on revolving around a giant floating turret floating next to said frames side. Think ability's that send turret off to guard an area or can be propped up to provide a orb style shield at the cost of being unable to move. Thats all ill mention for now.  

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

As for tesla, again base damage of 1000 and make it so the charge balls just buff nearby ones instead. Then you can spam a few then charge the entire group. Faster and more cost efficent.

As far as Tesla goes that WOULD help. Its the community that feels that Vauban is a engineer in full, and after being abandoned, needs a full rehual with an exalted turret or an exalted drone. You need to convince them that Tesla is still worth keeping (minelayer seems to REALLY be disliked also).

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4 minutes ago, zen625 said:

But he basically lives and dies with Bastille. Also if you do a comparison on his base stats (as are listed on the wiki compared to every other frame) you quickly realize there all in the bottom 5 all across the board (I dont recall though if the wiki has been updated recently). This in turn effects how effective defensive mods scale on him respectively and means that when fully modded for defense he loses out on all of the mods needed to effectively preform the only thing hes good at CC

 

Vauban does more than Bastille.

When I use him I usually have multiple Bastille up, a Vortex next to each to grab any extras in case the capacity is hit and Concuss grenades outside each to protect them from Nullifiers. I'll throw a Trip wire on Interception or missions where the enemies have to go to certain locations because they have a long duration. Bounce pads are a lil more quirky like against Infested on Excavator Drills or something like that since they last forever they're a last means of Defense for an objective.

He's a CC frame. The only stat that really matters to him is his Energy. I don't run Defensive mods on him. 

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1 minute ago, zen625 said:

As far as Tesla goes that WOULD help. Its the community that feels that Vauban is a engineer in full, and after being abandoned, needs a full rehual with an exalted turret or an exalted drone. You need to convince them that Tesla is still worth keeping (minelayer seems to REALLY be disliked also).

I actually like Tesla, it just needs more damage or another gimmick to make it worth using.

What needs to go is Minelayer (since none of them are really worth using, and we already have an offensive grenade with Tesla) and Vortex (since it does essentially the same thing as Bastille but less effectively) and just replace them with new abilities.

The biggest thing holding Vauban back right now is that he doesn't have any sort of ultimate ability like most other frames. Excalibur can pull a sword out of the void and mow down legions of enemies. Garuda can inflict an obscene amount of slash procs on everything in front of her. Rhino sends enemies flying helplessly in slow motion. These are abilities that, even if you're not constantly using them, allow frames to do massive amounts of damage or CC when it counts. Vauban doesn't have anything like that. Bastille is decent, but in reality you can achieve basically the same effect with many other frames that also have a lot more going for them. He doesn't have big damage, or tanking ability, or buffs, or agility. Right now he's a Bastille bot, and while you can technically make him work in most content provided you bring decent weapons, he's just outclassed by so many other frames.

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21 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Vauban does more than Bastille.

At higher levels no not really. As mentioned Vauban's horrible base stats severely limit his defensive options and this is a reacquiring theme among the CC frames that was implemented on purpose as has been admitted by the devs for a while now. Moving out to throw a properly placed Concuss on Mot for example will end you.

21 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

-snip-

This is how hes intended to be played but lets be honest here in higher level content (obviously as stated non star chart) you very reliant on either a team or certain mods to stay alive. Vauban cannot preform as well as other frames can solo or in a party, just a fact (again ill point out higher end gameplay). After they changed Bastille to have a 10 cap limit (had no cap) and the fact that the game has steadily progressed from its initial tactical shooter (when a Bursa scared you to death and we didn't have mobility we have today), to its horde clearing gamplay of today Vauban got left behind. Ramp up of enemy's to extreme bullet sponges doesnt help either or the constant knock down CC that is fortuna. But this effects all the CC frames not just Vauban.

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3 minutes ago, Flames21891 said:

I actually like Tesla, it just needs more damage or another gimmick to make it worth using.

I do too but most the community seems dead set on a TF2 engineer or something. Personally id like a exalted bandoleer for grenades so we could mod grenades to apply corrosive procs for example leading to chose primaries and secondaries having different loadouts for Vauban. 

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9 minutes ago, Flames21891 said:

The biggest thing holding Vauban back right now is that he doesn't have any sort of ultimate ability like most other frames

Forgot to comment on this. You could actually forgo damage ability's and go utility or support on Vauban also (orb style shields or a ammo station) since he is as you said a Bastille bot mostly. He has 6 forms of CC but Bastille is so effective alot of it gets ignored. (Bounce pads on interception STILL make me laugh).

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41 minutes ago, zen625 said:

Absolutely wrong. If Vauban's base stats actually lined up with how beefy he looks this wouldn't be so much of an issue. As stated above all of his base stats (armor,health,sheilding, sprint speed, and energy) are very low. When fully modding for defensive's he lowers his effectiveness of his actual purpose. This also means companions/moas when paired with Vauban are less durable then compared with other frames (imagine how much HP my Kavatt has when paired with my 8k Inaros) thus lowering there uptime and synergy with health return mods such as Pack Leader and Hunter Recovery. In the end though If your not pushing what people would consider 'endgame" its all meaningless since non prime Vauban can clear all of the star chart. 

I guess it's your opinion, but i believe he is as great as he has ever been, the star chart is already most of the game and there are a few missions even in "endgame" that he will excell, it's simply because he is great at CC and for the most part the rule in warframe is that you either CC or you kill, one can be done at any level so it rewards less (CC) and the other can be done up to a point, but you get rewarded (killing)

If you combine both, like using the abilities with weapons and other teammates, then you get both CC and killing.

This is a very simple concept but understanding it fully and doing a mission takes a while, for example if a non protected enemy kills you in arbitration, i can simply say "why didn't you CC the enemy to begin with?, why did you engage the enemy if you could die from it"

You have to somehow make a rule book, where you follow certain behaviors based on what you see, when to CC, when to engage enemies, what to do if everything falls apart, .....

What i mean with this is that when you have these things established, a warframe becomes an extra, you don't really depend on the warframe to do certain things, because you will always do them.

Player matters alot.

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@KIREEK You may be right he may actually be at the best stat he has ever been. As someone who started playing slightly before PoE launched but had family members doing raids long before that who roped me into playing I cant make claims to exactly what state Vauban was in before his (first?) rework. But I agree CC is far less important because dead equals perma CCed though my point still stands that the poor base stats that means there are certain levels of higher end gameplay that Vauban will never reach. Ill use an example again. I usally run a strong primary and a Furis using the Winds of Purity mod along with my gas modded Kubro. A vortex placed at floor height allows the Kubro to land hits that effect the tight knit bundles of enemy's equaling HUGE amounts of health returned threw Hunter Recovery. In turn Pack Leader heals the Kubro when I toss a glaive into a bundle of enemys effected by vortex and if I need more healing ill fire the Furis into the group for good measure. But. Sooner or later. im going to round a corner and a corpus crewman is going to blow my face off becuase my base stats just dont compare to other frames and outside of CC Vauban has no actual defensive ability's. Again this is higher end gameplay (I do easy Mot runs on Inaros for an hour for fun) but on Vauban, no such luck. Just not fun.  

Edit: Forgot to mention I use Zenistar too sometimes with Vauban instead of a glaive but I find the glaives knockdown helps more as you progress into longer and longer duration survival missions. 

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1 hour ago, zen625 said:

-snip-

 

I've gone lvl 300 with him Solo and that was when he had that dumb armor passive. How much higher is higher level?

Concuss mines are what saves him from being shot outside the range of Bastille thanks to their Radiation proc. They also keep Nullifiers from wandering in. You put them in doorways and hallways just outside Bastille range to create choke points. His kit is made to work together to create a larger CC force not just one ability on it's own. Much like Nyx was designed. No one should be using Fortuna as a parse for a frames performance. That content will be dead soon just like PoE and it will be another 2 years before DE gets back around to changing the frame again. People don't kill Eidolons cuz it's fun for the 300th time. They do it for the loot and once they have the loot. They never return.

Like I said in my first post. Vauban is good. Just prolly not in the content you're trying to force him into. A bunker down CC frame isn't going to do well in open world. That's kinda obvious. CC is one of the most powerful features in this game. DE keeps trying to make cheese counters to it with Arbitrations, Nullifiers, Nullifier Drones, Ancient Disruptor aura stacking, ect. They've been trying to take it down a notch for years. Asking for a rework will accomplish just that.

Players asked for a Chroma rework and now he has 1/2 his original eHP and still has two dead abilities.  Careful what you wish for...

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Yeah Vauban is pretty bad right now.

I actually showed his Tesla ability to a friend who has just started playing and they were convinced it was a joke. With my build and tesla uncharged, it takes over 5 shocks to kill a level 10 enemy. This would be fine if it was designed for CC, but the time between shocks is so long enemies can walk out of range before being shocked again. It also only shocks one enemy at a time.

I like the idea of his Bastille, but it doesn't prevent enemy fire from getting in. Completely contrary to it's name, it's incapable of protecting anything. Frost has a much better snow globe ability that can CC enemies who enter and prevent enemy fire from getting in. His augment for this has no synergy with vortex since it repels enemies, Bastille has a base 10m range and vortex a base 6m range. So the augment will repel enemies out of range of the vortex. Also I've noticed that enemies that are drawn in by vortex within Bastille don't clump together like when you use vortex alone (not sure if a bug or feature).

I enjoy the vortex ability since it's easy to lock down certain entry points, or throw it into a large group of enemies to disable them.

I think vortex's range should be doubled when used within Bastille as this will drag enemies into Bastille. Bastille itself should be able to block enemy fire or at least provide a passive 90% damage reduction to all allies within it (including objectives).

To add insult to injury, Vauban Prime is one of the most time consuming frames to build. Requiring a massive 20 Nitain Extract. If you source the extract solely from alerts it will take 5 days provided you get every single Nitain alert in a 24 hour period. If you work, you're likely to only get 2 alerts a day, so it will take 10 days to get enough Nitain (provided you don't go cache hunting).

Then even when you build him, his stats are not balanced at all. Normal Vauban actually has 15 less base armor than Nova, despite the fact that Nova has an active scaling damage reduction ability with her null stars. Even a stealth frame that doesn't even need high armor or high health such as Normal Ash has 15 higher armor vs Normal Vauban. Not to mention that Ash prime has 50 more armor than Vauban Prime, with 150 more health and 75 more shields. It's insane to me that Vauban has no damage reduction abilities and yet has lower stats than a frame that has arguably the best damage mitigation ability in the game (stealth).

 

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7 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Vauban isn't bad.

he isnt bad per say... the issue is there is a warframe that can do what he does only better.

Vauban honestly sucks when i can play almost anyone else and actually enjoy playing that warframe with abilities that arent limited for no reason other than its never been reworked.

They could take a major leap and just remove the limit on how many enemies he can stop with his ring thing and that would be a step in the right direction.

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3 hours ago, Dabnician said:

he isnt bad per say... the issue is there is a warframe that can do what he does only better.

Vauban honestly sucks when i can play almost anyone else and actually enjoy playing that warframe with abilities that arent limited for no reason other than its never been reworked.

They could take a major leap and just remove the limit on how many enemies he can stop with his ring thing and that would be a step in the right direction.

 

A lot of abilities have arbitrary limitation on them. X is not affected by mods is the most common and the more obnoxious being Volt's old Discharge.

Bastille had no limit on the enemies it could hold for a while. DE purposely put that in there to nerf him and yea he probably never fully recovered from it. Think it was back in Sept / Oct 2013 you can prolly still find posts pleading it was a bad idea. 5 years later, it was still a bad idea.

Just look at Tonkor / Simulor, a year later they go back on their nerfs. DE has always done those knee jerk reaction nerfs that ruin parts of the game for years. Maybe Vauban's rework will be better but looks to me they're just taking advantage to nerf CC so  If I were to guess, he'll get some extra Damage / Debuff cuz that's what all the players want these days and his CC will remain the same or get nerfed like Nyx.

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3 hours ago, Dabnician said:

They could take a major leap and just remove the limit on how many enemies he can stop with his ring thing and that would be a step in the right direction.

very unlikely for them to do that... vortex already doesn't have a limitation on numbers of enemies pulled in, and that's one of the major differences between that and bastille (the other being bastille suspending enemies in place for headshot opposed to vortex grouping them up for AoE).

the problem is that vortex is near unusable atm, because of the low duration and reduced range, though it was perfectly fine a couple years ago, before they #*!%ed up the radius calculations... i remember using it with 175% efficiency (which means fleeting expertize), and getting 15+m range and 15+s duration.

with the same build (250% range), you now go from the base 6m to... 9.49m.

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42 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

DE has always done those knee jerk reaction nerfs that ruin parts of the game for years.

Im fully aware of this, i played a bit since 2013 and honestly its cause the stupid forums.

This is the only PvE focused game where the community complains about having "too much power" constantly asking for nerfs.

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10 minutes ago, Dabnician said:

This is the only PvE focused game where the community complains about having "too much power" constantly asking for nerfs.

 

It's how the game is designed sadly. Same reason players don't see value in CC all a sudden.

It's a PvE game where players work against each other and compete instead of working together because we simply don't need each other.

So of course anything that takes a player's kills must be OP and anything that slows their kills like CC must be useless.

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12 hours ago, zen625 said:

Also lets be honest here people have been asking for a modifiable turret and we would need a modifiable Tesla (I have suggested to people a exalted grenade bandoleer) to match whats been put forth by the community. So "functionally identical" is wrong.

Abilities don't need to scale from weapon mods to be powerful damage abilities. We already have Virulence, Reaping Chakram, Smite, Mallet, Spores, and Discharge. Some of those are among the top damage abilities in the game, and none of them scale off of weapon mods. I'm sure the devs could easily come up with something to make Teslas deal workable damage. They don't need to get rid of a fully salvageable ability to make Vauban good. 

And as far as "functionally identical" goes, what would a turret do that an appropriately buffed Tesla would not? They're both abilities that you deploy so they can deal damage to enemies that come within their radius without additional player input. 

11 hours ago, Flames21891 said:

and Vortex (since it does essentially the same thing as Bastille but less effectively) and just replace them with new abilities.

I'd argue that Vortex should actually be made Vauban's main CC ability, and Bastille should be reworked to do something different that overlaps with Vortex less heavily (I think it would be cool if Bastille had a stasis effect on projectiles the way that one MOA companion does, and it would help a lot with Vauban's survivability issues). Grouping enemies up is among the most useful CC effects in this game because of the way it lets you annihilate everything with spread damage. Then buff Teslas to do an appropriate amount of damage, especially to multiple targets, and hello natural synergy. 

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Just look at Tonkor / Simulor, a year later they go back on their nerfs. DE has always done those knee jerk reaction nerfs that ruin parts of the game for years.

Neither of those statements are true. They buffed the Tonkor and the Synoid Simulor, but they are not the guns they used to be, and that's a good thing, because they both deserved to be nerfed. 

The Tonkor used to have no self damage whatsoever and a much better time to kill than almost every other weapon in the game. It had a crapton of power and basically zero drawbacks. 

The Synoid Simulor used to just let you W + M1 and kill everything on the map without even pretending to have to aim. 

Back before they nerfed those weapons, someone in basically every single squad you could join would have one or the other. The Tonkor was among the most used weapons in the game. These two weapons completely dominated the game for months. They were both massively overused for a long time, and the nerfs were neither kneejerk or undeserved. 

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Vortex should be his 1st skill and Tesla his 4th.

Make tesla a tower the size of a life support capsule. The range would be 50m that scales with ability range and the stats and mechanics of a unmodded Amprex that scales with ability power strength.

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let me shamelessly advertise here to help Vauban: 

feel free to add suggestions

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