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Volt Speed constant recasts need to be elminated

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2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Come on, you know full well they didn't. They tried literally one thing. And you can't even remotely class it as an "opt out" at all. 

No, mate, they really did try more than that. They had the testing for the roll out, the pickup, there were about fourteen hotfixes on the topic in the space of two months.

People remember the powerup pickup best because it was the one that lasted the longest.

A chat command might work, though, and you're genuinely the first person I've read that's proposed that on one of these threads (I'm not kidding, either I've not been there for ones you've been on, or I've been stuck defending myself from people that think my idea means I think there's no problem and everything is fine and that I'm trying to invalidate their views...).

But counter to your point, I don't believe that an opt-out is the answer, unless it comes with solving the root of the problem; players have an active reason to spam this ability making anyone that doesn't want it (for any reason) need to constantly opt out under the current system.

If DE made it a longer ability, with a smaller radius so it's easier for Volt players to use it, but not spam it, and for players that would rather opt-out to simply stand a little away from it... then the act of opting out would be few and far between in the first place. It would also maintain that state of the cast being a buff for the majority of players that do see it as one, do want it, and will call it a buff even if the re-cast is taken away.

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37 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No, mate, they really did try more than that. They had the testing for the roll out, the pickup, there were about fourteen hotfixes on the topic in the space of two months.

I don't recall anything besides the addition and removal of the pick up. Were there minor alterations? Likely, but not big enough to be memorable, not big enough to be recorded in the patch history, and certainly not big enough to constitute "trying everything".

Plus, the pick up was only live for just under a month.

I really just disagree with the idea that DE tried everything which means that we should stop asking.

41 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But counter to your point, I don't believe that an opt-out is the answer, unless it comes with solving the root of the problem; players have an active reason to spam this ability making anyone that doesn't want it (for any reason) need to constantly opt out under the current system.

That's... That's not the root of the problem I'm afraid. The root of the problem, the sole thing causing offence which if removed would solve the entire thing, is people getting it when they don't want it. People spamming it simply compounds that problem.

But the fact remains, that even if people's want to spam it were removed, I would still have a problem. I still don't want it. People who can't cope with it for medical reasons still wouldn't want it. Removing the ability and want to spam wouldn't solve it as it is not the root problem.

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1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

That's... That's not the root of the problem I'm afraid.

Eh, fair point. From all of the feedback I've been reading it's the act of having to opt out again and again and again that's been the majority of the problem. People who don't want it for specific reasons have not seemed to mind having to opt out once or twice in a mission, but having to constantly do something about it because of the incredibly short time between casts and the range of that cast ensuring that they can't even be in the same area as them was draining.

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23 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Eh, fair point. From all of the feedback I've been reading it's the act of having to opt out again and again and again that's been the majority of the problem. People who don't want it for specific reasons have not seemed to mind having to opt out once or twice in a mission, but having to constantly do something about it because of the incredibly short time between casts and the range of that cast ensuring that they can't even be in the same area as them was draining.

You've literally just described why it's the root of the problem. :wink:

Yes, deactivating it once or twice a mission isn't a big deal. It's a minor problem, but the fact alone that I deactivate it in those instances shows that I don't want it and thus that receiving it is a problem. Yes, no matter how minor it may be, even cancelling it once in a mission is a problem because it briefly detracts from the experience with no benefit to me. 

The problem is minor enough however that it's not worth complaining about on it's own. It's when, as mentioned, that minor problem is compounded by spam (particularly in endless missions) that it really does become something worth fixing.

Boy do I hate Defence missions with a Speed Volt in it. Can't exactly leave the vicinity due to the objective so the end result is performing an utterly arbitrary backflip 3 or 4 times a minute. Due to the lack of eyes in the back of my head I also have to wing it, do I turn around and see if it's safe to backflip or do I yolo it and backflip anyway regardless of the consequences?

It's not fun.

Edited by DeMonkey
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2 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

do I yolo it and backflip anyway regardless of the consequences?

While I would never use the four letter acronym you did, you've described my attitude on life very succinctly ^^

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1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

While I would never use the four letter acronym you did, you've described my attitude on life very succinctly ^^

Too hipster to be one of the cool kids, ay? :clem:

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Just now, DeMonkey said:

Too hipster to be one of the cool kids, ay? :clem:

Too old, not too old-school, I was around before it, and because it's been co-opted to mean 'come on, do something stupid and dangerous' instead of 'come on, do something that matters'... I'll probably be around after it too.

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Give my Opt-Out Roll a Duration timer (30secs?), whereby it remains opted out even with additional Speed Casts.

Doesn't affect Volt users in the least, they can keep doing whatever.

Everyone win.

 

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how about letting go off the shift key if u cant handle the speed? just go slower and then u wont go.... fast.

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I will forever enjoy the irony of this. One of the best counters to people trying to hasten a mission is to actively work against it by staying far away from Volt and moving to the objective as slow as possible.

Because of speed, I despise Volt more than any other frame by a wide margin. He's a huge reason I play almost entirely solo. He's the only reason I want to find out-of-bounds or Nullifiers. That's not to say I think the frame is garbage or people can't like him. However this facet of his existence is so pervasive, and coupled with his popularity, it ensures recurring frustration for me.

If they "literally" tried everything, we would have a workable solution for everyone at this point. The text-based command mentioned earlier is a fantastic solution. User-bound toggles for anything would be awesome! I would also settle for a 20 minute duration to discourage spamming of the ability.

As for reasons why: The levels are a huge mess of jagged-edged geometry. They barely support the slowest of frames at times. The speed causes me to get snagged on it even worse than usual(Would someone take a belt sander to these already?. Also, the melee swing speed looks absolutely stupid. I know it's devastating and effective, but it's so comical that it just ruins the experience. Oh, and the most awful of all, the sound effect. Every 2 seconds.

The buff to reload is really solid, though.

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Le 19/01/2019 à 13:07, AXCrusnik a dit :

I sincerely hope this is a joke, or at least you are unaware of the fact that it can be recast before it's duration is complete. If your kid is writing on the walls with a pen and you want him to stop, you don't give him a fine tip sharpie and hope he stops.

I personally don't have an issue with speed buff, but DE gave us the ability to negate it for a reason, and the ability to recast speed makes that negation useless, since Volt can just keep spamming 2 for as long as he has energy... which is very easy to refill if they really wanted to annoy people with it.

Some kids aren't writing on the walls, there's something called education. Same story concerning Volt, one can ask to not spam his powers too or just think about what can happen when you're not playing alone.

If i can't stand Speed Nova or a speed Volt i just leave, it takes approximatively 5s to go back in my ship or ask if i have some time to waste. Complaining is easy, tolerance and diplomacy on the other hand are quite rare. At least that's how adults are supposed to behave.

Edited by 000l000
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2 hours ago, 000l000 said:

Some kids aren't writing on the walls, there's something called education. Same story concerning Volt, one can ask to not spam his powers too or just think about what can happen when you're not playing alone.

If i can't stand Speed Nova or a speed Volt i just leave, it takes approximatively 5s to go back in my ship or ask if i have some time to waste. Complaining is easy, tolerance and diplomacy on the other hand are quite rare. At least that's how adults are supposed to behave.

On leaving a mission if don't like warframe that's being used, if the warframe is a popular one, such as volt, it means its likely the same 'frame will be in the next mission (have been on several missions where there is a volt in nearly every mission). Volt is a popular warframe and asking someone not to use their warframe's skills has often ended up with rudeness as the response. Intolerance for volt's speed can't be helped. Asking a volt player to change how they want to play Warframe would impinge on their game as well (which is why volt speed isnt liked in the first place by some).

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Il y a 19 heures, Twisted_Intent a dit :

On leaving a mission if don't like warframe that's being used, if the warframe is a popular one, such as volt, it means its likely the same 'frame will be in the next mission (have been on several missions where there is a volt in nearly every mission). Volt is a popular warframe and asking someone not to use their warframe's skills has often ended up with rudeness as the response. Intolerance for volt's speed can't be helped. Asking a volt player to change how they want to play Warframe would impinge on their game as well (which is why volt speed isnt liked in the first place by some).

No there aren't Volts in every team.

No they aren't spamming Speed all day long, most of the time they're only spamming their 4, quite hungry energy wise.

Yes some are spamming Speed but they are really rare and tbh most of them are using it when we have to move to the next objective - which is totally legit and certainly not worth complaining about.

I've played a lot and no Volt has ever bothered me the way you are complaining about here, at worse you can stop running which makes Volt's speed buff really less annoying. There are tons of solution, there's nothing to fix here. Speed Nova is far worse in the annoyance department and quite funnily there's almost no solution to that unless you're playing with Equinox - At least Volt does not make you die faster, be glad he only makes you travel faster.

As i said, complaining all day long is the easiest thing to do these days. Not the most productive though.

Edited by 000l000
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35 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

As i said, complaining all day long is the easiest thing to do these days. Not the most productive though.

Agreed, meta complaining is very easy and absolutely not productive.

In fact, it actually gets in the way of productive complaining, by derailing potential feedback. I'm referring to you btw, if it wasn't obvious.

Please stop, you obviously have nothing of value to add.

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3 hours ago, 000l000 said:

As i said, complaining all day long is the easiest thing to do these days. Not the most productive though.

Just to note: complaining is not a bad thing in and of itself, it only becomes bad when the complaining is aimless, inconsistent, non-constructive, or otherwise incapable of contributing to some improvement. By contrast, people here have been offering quite a fair bit of criticism that points towards a specific problem to fix: people generally do not like being lurched around by someone else's button presses, and the opt-out mechanisms we currently have do not address this problem, because they break our flow of action and still do not address the fundamental problem of players doing things to our character that we did not want to happen. The fact that you personally do not consider this a problem does not detract from the fact that many more players are bothered by the current implementation, and would want something different instead.

If we want to talk about non-constructive posts, though: what exactly does your comment here achieve? What does it say? Which facts does it state, and which constructive conclusion does it push towards? At the end of the day, your comment here boils down to complaining about complainers, and it is precisely that sort of complaining that tends to not be productive.

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I am so happy with this topic!

Most of the time i just instantly leave the mission when i see a volt in my game. Same go's for limbo. Anyway... There should be an option for players to be able to not get the "buff" and back flipping  is not one of them. The back flip animation is just to long. 

I vote that it becomes a volt only ability or targeted.

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On 2019-02-15 at 12:43 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

The problem that you've got here is that this has all happened before. DE spent a huge amount of time, several solid months, updating the game with multiple iterations of how to cast Speed so that it didn't interfere with other players that didn't want it, with testing on more variations that didn't make it to the update stage.

They really did try every variation of making it less intrusive to players that didn't want it, from things as simple rolling forwards instead of back-flips, to making it an opt-in ability by dropping pickups for other players instead of just applying it... everything you can think of, they've already tried.

What happened? Well the result was this: While there are vocal minorities, like you OP, that hate the effects of Speed and want out of it, the majority of the game is either in favour of the buff or un-inhibited by it.

Most of the players see it as a straight buff and either ignore it or benefit from it.

That's not to say that your point of view is invalid, far from it, there are many, many threads about it being detrimental to individuals who don't want that function or the screen change that happens when you get it (by the way, you can disable the visual effects in your settings, I believe it's the Colour Adjustment or similar, might make it less nauseating).

What is to say is this: Out of all the methods that were tried and tested, the balance fell in favour of the people that want the buff or are not adversely affected by it, so the cast as a radial buff stayed. And the easiest way to get out of it, the proverbial 'lesser of all evils' route, was the back-flip opt out. Every other method of opting out is worse for general play or interferes with the ability from being a buff to the rest of the population.

On the bright side, something DE have not tried is making the ability a longer base duration (because even with normal modding, it's only about 14 seconds), so that Volts are encouraged not to spam it, causing grief for the people that don't enjoy it.

It would not only be a good buff for Volt (not that he really needs it), but it would put much less pain onto players like yourself.

If I remember correctly there was an iterration with pickups (like Limbo´s Rift Walk) I didn´t see many complains about that one compared to the amount of negative feedback the current version causes. Also I don´t think people who dislike the speed buff are necessarily a minority aside from the forum I saw complains in ingame chat as well especially during things like extermination relics. And a lot of people don´t even complain they straight up leave the game if there is a volt in the game.

In my opinion the best solution would be a energy drain/toggle option without the energy restore restriction. This way you can opt in or out (when in range) whenever you want.

Edited by Arcira

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39 minutes ago, Arcira said:

In my opinion the best solution would be a energy drain/toggle option without the energy restore restriction.

That, my friend, is a combination of things that is mutually exclusive. I'm not even being a little jokey on that point. A Drain function excludes energy regen, across the board, unless it functions on an outside, per-use counter like Nekros' Desecrate or Ivara's Artemis Bow.

The reason for that is that DE use the function as a nerf to caster frames, preventing the ones with a strong ability from using it too much, and forcing players to balance whether they have enough to maintain that cast or whether they would better use that energy on their other abilities. It also means they can balance the effects of Energy Leech/Disruptor Eximus, magnetic procs, or mission-based penalties on the cost of that cast too. It's why Baruuk has a Drain on his 1, but is energy-free on his 4. If he loses all energy, he can still use his 4 until his passive runs out.

Also, we have the ability to mod Drain abilities for as low as 1 energy per second, depending on the cast, and we're able to regen energy from just our own sources at rates of anywhere between 0.6 to 2.4 energy per second just for players having Energy Siphon equipped, which can completely negate the drawbacks of running some Drain abilities, and on top of that just Zenurik can get you 5 energy per second for the low cost of a little toggle dance. Having access to that 5 energy per second regen would totally negate all cost of running about 90% of the energy Drain abilities in game.

And DE is, in most people's estimations, never, ever going to set a precedent where a basic Drain-per-second would not interrupt energy gain.

I genuinely get a little bile in my throat every time a person tries to introduce a Drain onto a frame that doesn't have one, specifically because they're asking for that frame to be given a functional nerf to their energy economy.

Also, on the other comment!

The problem with the pickups one was that Speed is still a buff for the vast majority of players (the statistics, apparently, all DE's words), even though Volt's Speed is a problem for a few, it's a buff for nearly everyone else, and pickups stopped it from being a buff for that huge group by being awkward, easy to lose track of in all the other loot, and also easy for them to vanish before you can pick them up because the Volt has simply recast somewhere else. But then also had the existing problem of players that wanted to troll you with it still trolling you with it, by dropping pickups where you couldn't avoid them, while even when there wasn't a troll players still picked it up by accident because they weren't expecting the pickup to be where it was and still had to backflip out of it after that.

So... for the majority, a downgrade, for the minority it was no difference. That's why they didn't stick with it.

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1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That, my friend, is a combination of things that is mutually exclusive. I'm not even being a little jokey on that point. A Drain function excludes energy regen, across the board, unless it functions on an outside, per-use counter like Nekros' Desecrate or Ivara's Artemis Bow.

The reason for that is that DE use the function as a nerf to caster frames, preventing the ones with a strong ability from using it too much, and forcing players to balance whether they have enough to maintain that cast or whether they would better use that energy on their other abilities. It also means they can balance the effects of Energy Leech/Disruptor Eximus, magnetic procs, or mission-based penalties on the cost of that cast too. It's why Baruuk has a Drain on his 1, but is energy-free on his 4. If he loses all energy, he can still use his 4 until his passive runs out.

I don´t see a problem here. Exclusivity is a poor excuse to bend rules anyway. They can adjust, change or even invert whatever they want. Limbo for example gains energy while in the rift instead of draining it so it´s technically not a channel ability yet the same principle.

They could make it a drain while stationary or attacking and a regeneration while moving fast therefore it isn´t a channel ability anymore if that´s the problem.

Also on the one side they implement energy restriction in order to lower the power and on the other side things like Arcane Energize or Rage still work. Doesn´t sound very consequent to me either. It doesn´t really matter here but in my opinion these drain mechanics don´t really do anything beside annoying people and all that just because cooldowns on powerfull abilities are "so much worse..."

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Also, we have the ability to mod Drain abilities for as low as 1 energy per second, depending on the cast, and we're able to regen energy from just our own sources at rates of anywhere between 0.6 to 2.4 energy per second just for players having Energy Siphon equipped, which can completely negate the drawbacks of running some Drain abilities, and on top of that just Zenurik can get you 5 energy per second for the low cost of a little toggle dance. Having access to that 5 energy per second regen would totally negate all cost of running about 90% of the energy Drain abilities in game

That´s a balancing not a mechanical issue. I don´t want to go into detail here but 5 energy per second from Zenurik school in game where you have almost no other similar effects just calls for being broken. Personal opinion here: If you arn´t able to balance things just make everything op so some poeple don´t feel left behind with there weapon/warframe choices.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And DE is, in most people's estimations, never, ever going to set a precedent where a basic Drain-per-second would not interrupt energy gain.

I genuinely get a little bile in my throat every time a person tries to introduce a Drain onto a frame that doesn't have one, specifically because they're asking for that frame to be given a functional nerf to their energy economy.

Also, on the other comment!

The problem with the pickups one was that Speed is still a buff for the vast majority of players (the statistics, apparently, all DE's words), even though Volt's Speed is a problem for a few, it's a buff for nearly everyone else, and pickups stopped it from being a buff for that huge group by being awkward, easy to lose track of in all the other loot, and also easy for them to vanish before you can pick them up because the Volt has simply recast somewhere else. But then also had the existing problem of players that wanted to troll you with it still trolling you with it, by dropping pickups where you couldn't avoid them, while even when there wasn't a troll players still picked it up by accident because they weren't expecting the pickup to be where it was and still had to backflip out of it after that.

So... for the majority, a downgrade, for the minority it was no difference. That's why they didn't stick with it.

Maybe but I have a hard time to believe that. I didn´t see any polls or similar things in order to estimate numbers. All I know is there are quite an amount of people sharing the same opinion. Nonetheless just from a logical point of view volts base movementspeed multipier starts where most other games draw the line. Not only do animations start to break but the efficiency is questionable as well. I genuily think without that strange acceleration part at the start of the running animation people would be able to maneuver at all in regular tileset with that 2-3 times+ multiplier.

Edited by Arcira

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2 hours ago, Arcira said:

All I know is there are quite an amount of people sharing the same opinion.

No, that's true, we just have to take their word for it, they're the ones with the stats, they're the ones that told us that the people that didn't want Speed were having just as bad a time (according to accumulated feedback) with the pickup method.

2 hours ago, Arcira said:

That´s a balancing not a mechanical issue.

The funny thing is... that's exactly the reason they gave when people begged to not have Drain interrupt energy gain. Drain is one of their balancing methods.

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Since we have unlimited gear slots now, what I would like is an item I could equip in my Gear Spiral which confers immunity to Volt Speed.

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On 2019-02-18 at 5:14 AM, DeMonkey said:

Come on, you know full well they didn't. They tried literally one thing. And you can't even remotely class it as an "opt out" at all. 

Volt dropped a "powerup" that you had to pick up if you wanted the buff, that's not the same as an opt out, which is largely what people want so as to not detract from others. It's an opt in, which is by and large quite different. A few updates later they reverted it entirely and added in the backflip cancel.

I know, I get it, DE did try and it's appreciated. But they really didn't try everything, not even close. And it absolutely doesn't mean feedback should stop being presented on the issue, because it's absolutely still an issue. An opt out is all that's required, putting the decision in the players hand instead of trying to balance the ability to be hunky dory for everyone.

As I always do, I'll propose that the opt in/opt out is a chat command, such as /speed or /volt. /s or /v for short.

That way there's no required UI, there's no haste to jump through hoops to turn it back on again if you decide you want it, and it's basically impossible to do accidentally. It also means that the ability doesn't need to be tweaked in the slightest, and therefore isn't detrimental to anyone.

This is an interesting solution.  Though I admit as a console player this might be a bit too invasive to do when you play with a pad.

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17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

This is an interesting solution.  Though I admit as a console player this might be a bit too invasive to do when you play with a pad.

Could you elaborate? Given I don't play Warframe on console (although I'm tempted to try) I don't know the extent of this. How many button presses would it take? Would it be more than having a toggle option in the menus?

Edited by DeMonkey

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