Garuda Should be Health Only

[-NightmareMoon-]

On 2019-01-20 at 6:07 AM, GPrime96 said:

With the current scaling of the Game and the low Health she got, that much Armor is not what you call high. That amount would work better on a Frame like Nidus or Inaros because of their higher health.

even with 1k health she can be very tanky, you can't just compare Inaros or Nidus with anything beside themselves, it would be idiotic and unfair,  those two frames are "Designed" to be tanks, you can make any warframe with 300+ armor into a good tank provident they have some kind of self healing or damage reduction.

Im really tired of people throwing the Inaros and nidus card like it mean something.

Edited January 22, 2019 by -NightmareMoon-

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, -NightmareMoon- said:

even with 1k health she can be very tanky, you can't just compare Inaros or Nidus with anything beside themselves, it would be idiotic and unfair,  those two frames are "Designed" to be tanks, you can make any warframe with 300+ armor into a good tank provident they have some kind of self healing or damage reduction.

Im really tired of people throwing the Inaros and nidus card like it mean something.

Here's the rub, though:

She neither has high base stats nor an ability that gives her percent damage reduction. If you focus on health and armour, you're definitely doing it wrong.

Her survivability isn't that bad, but it comes from a combination of sources and you have to work for it. We're not calling Volt a tank, either, just because he has a similar shield.

Here's what 825 armour will give you vs. neutral damage (e.g. Heat): 300 / (300 + 825) = 0.266 or 26.6% damage you're going to take (= 73.3% damage reduction). Remember that e.g. Mesa's Shatter Shield can give her up to 95% damage reduction vs. bullets, and we're not calling her a tank, either. Garuda only has 100 base HP, so that's mediocre, too. HP to EHP (= effective hit points) multiplier with Umbral Fiber is 1 / 0.266 = 3.75x. So with Vitality you'll be around 4k EHP total (if you're going for HP instead of QT and Energy). That's not what tanks have in this game.

So that's what people take issue with when you call her a tank. So yeah, semantics. Doesn't mean she drops like a leaf, though. She's doing well enough, imho.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Kontrollo

[Veridian]

6 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

She neither has high base stats nor an ability that gives her percent damage reduction. If you focus on health and armour, you're definitely doing it wrong

Yes, the right way seems to be to fill 5 of your mod slots for a build that is going to get 2shot by anything past lv 80 anyway. Her stats are higher than Rhinos and also Nova has % damage reduction, is she a tank?

 

6 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Her survivability isn't that bad, but it comes from a combination of sources and you have to work for it. We're not calling Volt a tank, either, just because he has a similar shield.

The tankiest frame in the game is considered Trinity, all her DR comes from a combination of sources. Just because damage mitigation comes from active sources doesn't make a frame any less tanky. Why is Wukong considered a tank, when he has even less armor?  Defy, ability with a drain and 2 sec cast time, is not better than Dread Mirror and Blood Altar combined.

 

6 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Here's what 825 armour will give you vs. neutral damage (e.g. Heat): 300 / (300 + 825) = 0.266 or 26.6% damage you're going to take (= 73.3% damage reduction). Remember that e.g. Mesa's Shatter Shield can give her up to 95% damage reduction vs. bullets, and we're not calling her a tank, either. Garuda only has 100 base HP, so that's mediocre, too. HP to EHP (= effective hit points) multiplier with Umbral Fiber is 1 / 0.266 = 3.75x. So with Vitality you'll be around 4k EHP total (if you're going for HP instead of QT and Energy). That's not what tanks have in this game. 

With umbral mods she has about 6k EHP, with QT+Primed Flow + Fiber + Hunter Adrenaline+ Pain Threshold is about 5, for 5 mods, 600 energy isn't exactly a lot. Her tankines comes in the form of two abilities that have no almost equivalent on their own, much less combined in one kit. A large, instant, cheap, on demand and unconditional heal and total frontal damage immunity. Before you compare to Volt, his shield is inferior, even with the augment, he has no heal and has significantly lower stats. As for the heal, apart from Trinity's 4 there is no other ability in game that heals so much for so little.

 

6 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

So that's what people take issue with when you call her a tank. So yeah, semantics. Doesn't mean she drops like a leaf, though. She's doing well enough, imho. 

People also were firm in believing she was a glass cannon caster on release, even though she had one damage spell that needed to ramp up and came with her very own melee weapon. Also that she was completely useless, but lo and behold, aim glide during ability charge seemed to fix all her problems...

 

 

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

On 2019-01-20 at 4:41 AM, -NightmareMoon- said:

 

low armor are you drunk? my garuda have 825 armor with Umbra fiber alone, I will love to have the option of turning shield off on the warframes, or to convert shields to heal. some frames like Khora benefit a lot with a rage builds, shields are just annoying.

Valkyr prime starts with 800 iirc.  And she still is incapable of face tanking in sorties without her 4 or warcry.  QT+ armor+ P flow+ adaptation is what makes her tanky.  Not just armor alone.  And even then she doesn't have any damage midigation tools.  Sure her shields are not massively helpful.  But there is no reason to ditch hers.

On 2019-01-20 at 1:01 AM, DatCanadien said:

Let's be honest her passive isn't ideal especially for high level play

It is with the proper build.  Not that you really need it anyway considering the kind of power weapons alone have these days.  The most benefit you get from her passive at that level is for her blood alters.

On 2019-01-20 at 12:07 AM, DatCanadien said:

Get rid of Garuda's shields and make her into what she is supposed to be, a vampire.

Set her up with 0 shields and more max hp with all the benfits that Inaros and Nidus get from not having shields.

Her Kit is perfectly set up for a full health warframe, you have damage reduction, healing, sacrificing health for benefit and she is obsest with blood and making enemies bleed.

So far all we have are Nidus and Inaros who are your average tanky suvival experts. Set Garuda up for a High risk, high reward playstyle.
>Squishy but has the tools to survive; Missing Hp % healing; Damage blocking shield; sacrifice health for energy and has a charged cone-radius crowdcontrol, bleed fiesta

There is absolutely nothing about her that makes her vampire themed.  She's gore themed.  Nidus and Inaros both have fairly effective cc tools along with damage midigation skills.  Garuda only has a one directional shield.  So she can't be as tanky as either one of them.  She's already high risk high reward.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

50 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

Yes, the right way seems to be to fill 5 of your mod slots for a build that is going to get 2shot by anything past lv 80 anyway. Her stats are higher than Rhinos and also Nova has % damage reduction, is she a tank?

What people define as "tank" from what i've witnessed in my time with this community seems to vary widely.  In my opinion a tank has high EHP, has damage midigation skills, and some form of aggro/cc mechanics.  Essentially MMO terms.  in WF when I discuss with my friends it seems to make sense to have 2 catagories when talking about someone being "tanky."  Direct and indirect.  A frame that doesn't have the EHP (for instance) of a typical tank but has a damage midigation skill and plenty of hard cc would be an indirect tank.  Versus someone who has maybe a few damage midigation skills, a hard cc, and/or high EHP would be a direct tank.  For example I would say wukong is an indirect tank.  Versus Rhino who is a direct tank.

50 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

 

The tankiest frame in the game is considered Trinity, all her DR comes from a combination of sources. Just because damage mitigation comes from active sources doesn't make a frame any less tanky. Why is Wukong considered a tank, when he has even less armor?  Defy, ability with a drain and 2 sec cast time, is not better than Dread Mirror and Blood Altar combined.

It was to my knowledge that the "tankiest" frame in the game isn't a unanimous pick.  I would say trinity probably was awhile ago.  But I think both inaros and Nidus beat her out.  Simply because Nidus/inaros can ignore death.  Trinity can't.  I wouldn't rightfully consider wukong a tank because he doesn't tank.  He just ignores damage.  Same with Revenant.

50 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

 

With umbral mods she has about 6k EHP, with QT+Primed Flow + Fiber + Hunter Adrenaline+ Pain Threshold is about 5, for 5 mods, 600 energy isn't exactly a lot. Her tankines comes in the form of two abilities that have no almost equivalent on their own, much less combined in one kit. A large, instant, cheap, on demand and unconditional heal and total frontal damage immunity. Before you compare to Volt, his shield is inferior, even with the augment, he has no heal and has significantly lower stats. As for the heal, apart from Trinity's 4 there is no other ability in game that heals so much for so little.

I would say she's survivable.  Not that she's tanky.  Even poorly optimized chroma builds have higher ehp than that.

50 minutes ago, Ver1dian said:

 

People also were firm in believing she was a glass cannon caster on release, even though she had one damage spell that needed to ramp up and came with her very own melee weapon. Also that she was completely useless, but lo and behold, aim glide during ability charge seemed to fix all her problems...

 

 

 

Garuda can be many things.  I myself have a "tanky" build.  a 200% build to be a nuke.  and a range build that lets her be melee/support.  She doesn't have a defined role.  But I would still be hard pressed to say she's tanky.  At least from how I view tanks.

[Kontrollo]

7 hours ago, Ver1dian said:

Yes, the right way seems to be to fill 5 of your mod slots for a build that is going to get 2shot by anything past lv 80 anyway. Her stats are higher than Rhinos and also Nova has % damage reduction, is she a tank?

The tankiest frame in the game is considered Trinity, all her DR comes from a combination of sources. Just because damage mitigation comes from active sources doesn't make a frame any less tanky. Why is Wukong considered a tank, when he has even less armor?  Defy, ability with a drain and 2 sec cast time, is not better than Dread Mirror and Blood Altar combined.

With umbral mods she has about 6k EHP, with QT+Primed Flow + Fiber + Hunter Adrenaline+ Pain Threshold is about 5, for 5 mods, 600 energy isn't exactly a lot. Her tankines comes in the form of two abilities that have no almost equivalent on their own, much less combined in one kit. A large, instant, cheap, on demand and unconditional heal and total frontal damage immunity. Before you compare to Volt, his shield is inferior, even with the augment, he has no heal and has significantly lower stats. As for the heal, apart from Trinity's 4 there is no other ability in game that heals so much for so little.

People also were firm in believing she was a glass cannon caster on release, even though she had one damage spell that needed to ramp up and came with her very own melee weapon. Also that she was completely useless, but lo and behold, aim glide during ability charge seemed to fix all her problems...

Garuda doesn't get two-shot past level 80, she's not paper.

Nova is not a tank either, Rhino on the other hand has an unconditional shield that can go up into millions (I think? I don't play him much) of EHP. Trinity is definitely tankier than Garuda, but no she's not considered the tankiest frame. She can stack two 75% damage reduction abilities, one of them is conditional, as well. Wukong has almost infinite health through his Defy. Keyword in all of this: unconditional.

I could go on, but why bother.

Now here's what I said: "If you focus on health and armour, you're definitely doing it wrong". And I said that because her base stats aren't that high. You're better off investing in other mods, especially also because you lose the damage boost from your passive if you want to tank with your health. However note, I never said it's wrong to put one of each of those on her.

By the way, her heal is conditional because you have to stay in that circle, that much should be obvious. If you set it up on one side of a tile and your shield runs out, you're likely forced to jump out of it.

Also let me go on record here: Pain Threshold is a bad mod, and I'd rather put Handspring on her every single time, even though I'm using QT and Primed Flow.

 

Edit: Didn't address that last one: she's got a lot of other changes: fixes to her falling through the map, her 1 and 4 didn't take Natural Talent into account, speed ups to her 1 and 2 I think, short staggers for her 1 and 2, her 4 now charges faster but with less max angle, and more base range to her Blood Altar. Her 4-1 combo was incredibly clunky to use because it wasn't easy to gauge when you could start pressing 1 after her 4 to make her use her Dread Heart.

Floatiness for her 1 and 4 while in the air is just the last one in a series of buffs.

Edit 2: Actually, just go read this: https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Garuda/Patch_History

Edited January 22, 2019 by Kontrollo

[BallisticSalsa]

1 hour ago, Kontrollo said:

 

Also let me go on record here: Pain Threshold is a bad mod, and I'd rather put Handspring on her every single time, even though I'm using QT and Primed Flow.

I roll with neither. 

I treat her like Nezha. Highly mobile and constantly in motion. I dont get those staggering hits often as Im usually not in a state where it matters.

Really about 90 percent of this thread is full of misconceptions about her kit.

3 out of 4 of her abilities affect her abilities in some way.

3 out of 4 of her abilities control enemies in some form or another.

So honestly if you want a fair comparison in terms of survivability, mobility and damage potential the place to look is Nezha.

Edited January 22, 2019 by BallisticSalsa