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Makunogo

ideas on making content harder/tougher/engaging/ect discussion

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The Title Says it. Lets Brainstorm. - if this is the wrong place then that would prob explain why i haven't seen a megathread pertaining to this topic, i feel like there should be one. i do plan on editing this fairly often (like once a day) if it does "stick" around lol 

One of my ideas was to revamp the alarm system. As it currently Stands we basically ignore alarms. but what if triggering alarms actually did more than make enemies alert? 

another thing i would like to kind of see is to make it easier for missions to fail.  

the goal in this idea is to basically make playing through missions more engaging as lets face it. most missions have become. enter and extract with not much afterthought.

Proposed Suggestions that i can think of at the moment 😄

1. Each Time you trigger the alarm the BASE level of enemies in the entire mission would double.( not just once - and the base level would not lower )

2. triggering too many lockdown would trigger an AUTO FAIL timer if alarms are not shut off within the Auto fail timer (perhaps 20 seconds?) making finding and shutting off alarms a requirement rather than a passive thing to ignore

3. exp bonus* and doubling the spy rewards when NOT triggering alarms in spy missions.

* would apply to all missions with alarms *

4. enemies being permanently in an Alert after triggering a lockdown (which in turn will trigger alarms going off more and more lockdowns )

5. Ideas? help me out here 😄

 

Pros that i can think of at the moment :

1. MORE ENGAGING mission play.

2. makes stealth play more enticing.

3. increases enemy levels faster then the slow AF rate enemies normally scale

4. help me out here 😄

 

Cons that i can think of at the moment :

1. defense and survival do not have alarms to trigger.

2. too many alarms could make enemies annoying to kill for newer players, tho a cap on the level increase from alarms could be implemented.

however this forces people to pay attention in their missions more and supports my " more ways to fail a mission" 

3. Lockdown Loops may be annoying - i know someone would end up complaining about it -

4. you know what i'm gonna say by now here 😉

I would like for this idea to be Utterly destroyed. as in ways to improve the idea or problems i may have missed.

 

Still post your other ideas if you feel so Inclined.

Thanks and lets keep it Civil and avoid unnecessary personal attacks and arguments okay 😉

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  • I'd like enemy units with more mobility. I think that was something that was done a bit better in Fortuna with the jumping melee dudes but I think they could expand on this further. It'd be good to have a foil to our Warframes' ridiculous maneuverability.
  • General AI improvements to keep us on our feet would be nice - have some aggressive units and some stealty units that can try to ambush you.
  • I like the ideas of alarms making a bigger impact on gameplay, but there'd need to be some moderation to how quickly alarms can be activated after being hacked.
  • Rework some 'tough' units like eximuses (eximi?) (maybe. the number of these dudes that spawn may make this impractical), as well as hyenas etc to have more boss-like attack patterns from other games - turn them into minibosses on your way through the mission that, once again, force the player to use good mobility.
  • Bring some kind of stealth back into the game - not particularly "press two to go invisible" but modify the layout of tiles to allow more sneaking.

Most of my ideas are probably rubbish or unfeasible but just my two pennies 

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now now dont belittle yourself. this is fully the intention of the thread. collect ideas no matter how crazy they may seem. heck someone might be able to work with them.

the problem with making a mission TOO stealthy is that we want to be able to more or less be able to do it with any frame. so say perhaps we had something that was just impossible without stealth it would make a meta. thats something i want to avoid doing. 

however i still wanted to reward people who complete missions without triggering alarms which is an incentive for stealth play, which may not entail using an actual stealth frame but just preventing alarm triggers.

I dont know much about how AI works so i couldn't really mention it 😛 but i guess i should add that into the thread ?  @ILightningHD

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Actually, what would be nice is a way to set your own difficulty level. That way you don't mess the game up for those that like it the way it is. So, if we had a way to set our own difficulty level, at least in solo mode, that would allow everyone to set the game to whatever difficulty level they want. I don't get a lot of time to play so I happen to be one of the ones that enjoy the game as is but I also understand there are those that enjoy uber hard content for what ever reason and this would be one way to allow pretty much everyone to enjoy the game the way they like. I have no idea how DE could pull this off but it would be a better alternative to just making the entire game harder for everyone.

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Honestly the cleanest way at this point would be to make Warframe 2 and rework the entire combat system from the ground up. Or at least key aspects of it, like armor, damage, healing, energy, etc. That's what the Divison 2 is doing to fix some of the mistakes the original game had (some of which were actually quite similar to WF's, like crazy armor scaling). 

On the current game: Not allowing buffs to stack would be one way, changing the energy economy of how we use powers another to avoid too much spam and infinite energy. That would be considered a huge nerf and cause a lot of crying though. 

So the most obvious solution would be to allow players to select their own difficulty level for missions, like every single other looter shooter game out there does? (Division has world tiers, Anthem will have 6 difficulty levels, 3 of which are unlocked at level cap, etc) Or just make some sort of endgame dynamic game mode with fast scaling enemy levels and ever increasing rewards like Great Rifts in D3 (ESO and Arbitrations could have been that if DE wasn't afraid of high level enemies and trying to make everything accessible to newer players). 

 

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Best way? Rebalance our weapons, mods and warframes. We can't have any of what people want so long as we're ubermench.

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It feels like every time they release a Warframe they should release a specific enemy unit meant to counter it...

De releases a weapon set with each new frame, but on the other end of the enemy roster they should be adding a new unit to the upper echelon of mid tier bosses that  drop in like the Bursa, Maniac, Nox, and Juggernaut...

This enemy should be specific to that frame...where it negates or can shrug off their powers..but, are susceptible to the other frames not tied to it.. Side note: they could place an additional unused Syndicate mod meant for the frame in this foe's drop table as a reward...

 

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This would be better off in the feedback section of the forum, where the devs might read it.

 

Seriously - they are looking into ways to do exactly this and might appreciate some help from the player base.

 

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Remove sliding and Bullet jumping.

Also decrease the speed of climbing and any parkor... That should make the game more challenging...

well, that will also make Warframe (the game, not the frames) not Warframe (the game) any more...

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On 2019-01-21 at 5:50 PM, Makunogo said:

 

😄1.Each Time you trigger the alarm the BASE level of enemies in the entire mission would double.( not just once - and the base level would not lower )

Given the ridiculous amount of CC we have we are at a point where enemy level can't be equated to difficulty

On 2019-01-21 at 5:50 PM, Makunogo said:

2. triggering too many lockdown would trigger an AUTO FAIL timer if alarms are not shut off within the Auto fail timer (perhaps 20 seconds?) making finding and shutting off alarms a requirement rather than a passive thing to ignore

I see new players that have no idea how to handle lockdowns quite often.

kicking them out of the mission just because they can't hack a console in 20 seconds will just drive them away

On 2019-01-21 at 5:50 PM, Makunogo said:

3. exp bonus* and doubling the spy rewards when NOT triggering alarms in spy missions.

* would apply to all missions with alarms *

stealth is broken unless you cheese with Loki, Ivara or any other Frame that can use invisibility.

However, given DE fixes stealth at some point I would be okay with this

On 2019-01-21 at 5:50 PM, Makunogo said:

4. enemies being permanently in an Alert after triggering a lockdown (which in turn will trigger alarms going off more and more lockdowns )

😄

this would do nothing except to annoy players

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2 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

this would do nothing except to annoy players

But this would also bring back mass CC as something incredibly useful.  They can't press the button if they can't move.   Solving the problem by changing nothing is a great way to not solve the problem.   As a FYI...no matter what DE does something will annoy some players and they will post really loudly banging their keys like corpus browsing stock market porn.

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How would making me use my operator to do bad mini puzzle games more often equate to harder, tougher, or engaging? The current rate of lockdowns is already annoying, the lockdown loop OP describes would be game ruining.

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The sheer amount of power creep is severely hindering any illusion of challenge.  It's at the point where some CC and defense oriented frames are rendered obsolete (Frost, Nyx, Vauban) in a majority of missions, especially the new open world areas.

Either adjust the enemies to be able to compete with said power creep, or adjust the abilities and weapons that contribute to it (fat chance).  Start with that, then we can discuss challenging content.

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On 2019-01-22 at 12:50 AM, Makunogo said:

One of my ideas was to revamp the alarm system. As it currently Stands we basically ignore alarms. but what if triggering alarms actually did more than make enemies alert? 

another thing i would like to kind of see is to make it easier for missions to fail.  

the goal in this idea is to basically make playing through missions more engaging as lets face it. most missions have become. enter and extract with not much afterthought.

Proposed Suggestions that i can think of at the moment 😄

1. Each Time you trigger the alarm the BASE level of enemies in the entire mission would double.( not just once - and the base level would not lower )

2. triggering too many lockdown would trigger an AUTO FAIL timer if alarms are not shut off within the Auto fail timer (perhaps 20 seconds?) making finding and shutting off alarms a requirement rather than a passive thing to ignore

3. exp bonus* and doubling the spy rewards when NOT triggering alarms in spy missions.

* would apply to all missions with alarms *

4. enemies being permanently in an Alert after triggering a lockdown (which in turn will trigger alarms going off more and more lockdowns )

5. Ideas? help me out here

This is absolutely terrible. Jacking up levels is the worst way around it, especially towards the higher level missions such as Sorties where two triggers of the alarm will make the game unplayable for a majority of builds with level 200 enemies. Lastly, doubling the incentive to do missions in pure stealth is effectively pointless since it doesn't mean anything to actually adding difficulty, I can blitz through missions just the same and clear it in half the time. Or everyone can use Loki for these missions, completely bypassing your supposed "difficulty" system.

The easiest universal way to bring back some challenge is to cut the mod scaling in this game and adjust energy costs. When your abilities go from 25m radius to 60m while doing more damage, the gap from the bottom to the top is so large that half of the scale will exist outside the balance of the game. Either the bottom half becomes useless, or the top half breaks the game which is what we currently have now. You cut down this gap, and you will immediately stop seeing people nuking enemies from 2 rooms over.

And people constantly bring up how everyone wants more "challenging content", geeze.

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Challenge is possible without ANY change to the game elements.

Simply create challenge missions with predetermined loadouts, available to anyone without MR restriction. This can be anything, a low MR mission vs L20 enemies or a high one with top gear vs L200.

The true challenge would be for the creator to find the right ballance, simple sandbox won't do the trick.

To be honest, I don't see any other way to do it. Warframe's wide arsenal makes it next to impossible to create challenging high end content.

Scaling is no solution as it nullifies any sense of progress.

Extreme level enemies from start on (L250+) won't help either as we'd simply would bombard them with CC.

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First step, nerf all of the absurd aoe clear that has become rampant in the game over the years. So long as we can clean maps out in the breadth of a second there isn't a lot of potential for challenging content. 

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Love this topic:

- give us mana regeneration+mods and remove energy orb drops and pizzas entirely or remove the effectiveness by 75%

- Alarms let the enemy go up in level (like in defense after 5 rounds) and repetitive spawn mini bosses

- better AI

 

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How about..... Spitballing here view with open mind.


-voluntary Carrying 'Dragon keys' (or similar de-buff items) would yield better rewards. (For instance rotation changes, credits or exp) 

-Nightmare mode: Friendly fire enabled. Applies to abilities. 

-Nightmare mode: abilities disabled.

-Forced weapon change. 1/3 on main 1/3 on secondary 1/3 melee. 

-Targeted assassination; damage dealt to 'civilians' reduces rewards. 

- Operator run: Only operator allowed. Some enemies that can damage in void-mode /pull back to reality. 

-2 person delivery: You need 2 persons to push/carry objective. 

- 'left for dead': Enemy type can knock you down and ally is required to free you. 

-Help a n00b: Reward for grouping with great MR discrepancy. 

-No mods. All mods are disabled for the run. 

-Race: Time limit: Rotation decreases based on time spent in mission.

-Floor is lava: Each time floor is touched rewards decrease.

 

Edit: 

Tourist mode: Enemies die upon synthesis scan, immune to regular guns. 

No gravity: Disable gravity; allow jumping from ceiling. (Could be hard from technical standpoint) 

Zone of chaos: Inside reverse controls. Left is right, up is down. (I'd hate this, but would be wacky) 

under water: Fill level with water. Run as archwing.

Buddy run: Damage is reduced if you are far away from friendly. Hugging gets bonus.

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1st step- unnerf our enemies for an elite mode. 

Most of you don't realise that the enemies we have can/used to be difficult without depending on scaling. 

The problem is that most players just want to run willy silly into every room shooting at bullet sponges instead of actually practicing awareness.... Thus any difficult enemy mechanic gets nerfed to the point you don't even realise that they all have unique traits.

There was a time when manics were scary, bombards could actually kill you and your defense objective if not dealt with swiftly, bursas were a PITA if you left alarms running, etc. Even rollers were a challenge at one point.  

I would LOVE if DE let their enemy designs shine in at least one mode for those looking for a real challenge based on more than just numbers.

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Personally, I feel that 90% of the starchart is for story progression, farming for resources, warframes, and mods, or just for leveling up new frames/weapons. I think it is already time consuming, grindy, and sometimes even tedious to get all of the aforementioned, and so increasing the difficulty on top of it isn't going to make the game more enjoyable for me. That is why I would instead propose that DE leave difficulty where it is for the current content, and instead add challenge either by expanding on the starchart, or offering new modes such as they did with Arbitration and Onslaught. 

In otherwords, DE should focus on quality of life improvements for the base starchart, and then work on rounding out a good end-game for players that want to spend their time playing with maxed out frames/weapons. If people want to have optional difficulty sliders to artificially increase the difficulty of any mission, I would certainly approve of the idea, but again, it should be optional.

TL;DR: The core gameplay loop of Warframe is based around repeatedly farming and leveling from 0-30 over and over again, and I don't want DE to introduce anything that would increase the time it already takes to accomplish this. Instead, DE should flesh out a robust end-game for people that want to invest in maxed out frames/weapons.

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oh i haven't been on the forums. i kind of skimming the replies right now 😛

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2 minutes ago, IntheCoconut said:

Personally, I feel that 90% of the starchart is for story progression, farming for resources, warframes, and mods, or just for leveling up new frames/weapons. I think it is already time consuming, grindy, and sometimes even tedious to get all of the aforementioned, and so increasing the difficulty on top of it isn't going to make the game more enjoyable for me. That is why I would instead propose that DE leave difficulty where it is for the current content, and instead add challenge either by expanding on the starchart, or offering new modes such as they did with Arbitration and Onslaught. 

In otherwords, DE should focus on quality of life improvements for the base starchart, and then work on rounding out a good end-game for players that want to spend their time playing with maxed out frames/weapons. If people want to have optional difficulty sliders to artificially increase the difficulty of any mission, I would certainly approve of the idea, but again, it should be optional.

TL;DR: The core gameplay loop of Warframe is based around repeatedly farming and leveling from 0-30 over and over again, and I don't want DE to introduce anything that would increase the time it already takes to accomplish this. Instead, DE should flesh out a robust end-game for people that want to invest in maxed out frames/weapons.

you dont find the starchart to be a bit lackluster? while i do agree that it is for story progression, a year ago we Had nothing else...

Before Fortuna/POE there was only the star chart. i think it needs some tweaking. the alarm idea i proposed would make the missions a little less braindead in my opinion. which i think is a step in the right direction.

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54 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

1st step- unnerf our enemies for an elite mode. 

Most of you don't realise that the enemies we have can/used to be difficult without depending on scaling. 

The problem is that most players just want to run willy silly into every room shooting at bullet sponges instead of actually practicing awareness.... Thus any difficult event mechanic gets nerfed to the point you don't even realise that they all have unique traits.

There was a time when manics were scary, bombards could actually kill you and your defense objective if not dealt with swiftly, bursas were a PITA if you left alarms running, etc. Even rollers have a challenge at one point.  

I would LOVE if DE let their enemy designs shine in at least one mode for those looking for a real challenge based on more than just numbers.

why not have harder enemies and some higher scaling?

i wasnt around when manics were scary. however i did have a greater appreciation of the enemy types when i was newer at the game. heck the infested scared the crap out of me lol.

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