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Makunogo

ideas on making content harder/tougher/engaging/ect discussion

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it was noted that this should be in feedback section can a mod move this please and thank you ❤️

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15 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

Remove sliding and Bullet jumping.

Also decrease the speed of climbing and any parkor... That should make the game more challenging...

well, that will also make Warframe (the game, not the frames) not Warframe (the game) any more...

i feel like Speed Volt would slightly become meta to circumvent this lol.

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Just now, Makunogo said:

you dont find the starchart to be a bit lackluster?

Certainly, but increasing the difficulty and making it harder for people to acquire basic rewards will make it feel even more tedious.

I thought Eidolons was quite difficult and fun the first time I did it. It didn't take long, however, to realize that it was going to be a major time investment to get any arcanes that I wanted, especially once factoring in Hydrolyst and Gantulyst. It is why a meta was formed, because people stopped having fun on the 10+ run and didn't want to keep spending 30+ minutes every night to get a random arcane.

Its just my opinion. I'm sure there are people out there on their 50+ run of Eidolon farming and they enjoy it just as much as the first time.

But I do believe that if you increase difficulty across the starchart, its novelty will wear off quickly just like it did for many doing Eidolon farms.

Reworking difficulty through the whole game is a very ambitious and time consuming task, and in addition, would require a complete overhaul of how rewards, and RNG work in the game to make it worth players time.

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17 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

Honestly the cleanest way at this point would be to make Warframe 2 and rework the entire combat system from the ground up. Or at least key aspects of it, like armor, damage, healing, energy, etc. That's what the Divison 2 is doing to fix some of the mistakes the original game had (some of which were actually quite similar to WF's, like crazy armor scaling). 

On the current game: Not allowing buffs to stack would be one way, changing the energy economy of how we use powers another to avoid too much spam and infinite energy. That would be considered a huge nerf and cause a lot of crying though. 

So the most obvious solution would be to allow players to select their own difficulty level for missions, like every single other looter shooter game out there does? (Division has world tiers, Anthem will have 6 difficulty levels, 3 of which are unlocked at level cap, etc) Or just make some sort of endgame dynamic game mode with fast scaling enemy levels and ever increasing rewards like Great Rifts in D3 (ESO and Arbitrations could have been that if DE wasn't afraid of high level enemies and trying to make everything accessible to newer players). 

 

could u go perhaps into more details into the 6 difficulty levels? what makes each one different?

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1 minute ago, IntheCoconut said:

Certainly, but increasing the difficulty and making it harder for people to acquire basic rewards will make it feel even more tedious.

I thought Eidolons was quite difficult and fun the first time I did it. It didn't take long, however, to realize that it was going to be a major time investment to get any arcanes that I wanted, especially once factoring in Hydrolyst and Gantulyst. It is why a meta was formed, because people stopped having fun on the 10+ run and didn't want to keep spending 30+ minutes every night to get a random arcane.

Its just my opinion. I'm sure there are people out there on their 50+ run of Eidolon farming and they enjoy it just as much as the first time.

But I do believe that if you increase difficulty across the starchart, its novelty will wear off quickly just like it did for many doing Eidolon farms.

Reworking difficulty through the whole game is a very ambitious and time consuming task, and in addition, would require a complete overhaul of how rewards, and RNG work in the game to make it worth players time.

this is exactly why we should be helping DE out. i mean they literally asked us to help haha. 

as for eidolons i mostly do them for the riven transmuters lmao so no idea how many runs i have. but i also cant afford grace/energize so low key trying to get better at eidolons so i can like 2x3 (yea its not much compared to others but we all started from the ground up lol)

as for actual difficulty. with my alarm rework suggestion difficulty does not actually increase much. considering how overpowered frames are by the time doubling the level becomes a problem (remember the star chart isn't that high) we are well equipped to handle the situation. perhaps a cap on the doubling or maybe only doubling it once (as it was just a brainstorm) 

imo either way enemies barely react to alarms and i thought this would be something easy for DE to implement because as u say they dont have much time 😛

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15 hours ago, NocheLuz said:

Remove sliding and Bullet jumping.

Also decrease the speed of climbing and any parkor... That should make the game more challenging...

well, that will also make Warframe (the game, not the frames) not Warframe (the game) any more...

I've often thought this too, which is a depressing realization. I don't wont to take away Warframe's identity and turn it into a generic shooter, but I can't deny that it would make things more challenging.

That being said, I wonder if instead of removing it, they could add a stamina resource. So you could still bullet jump, slide, parkour, and all of that, but it would be limited by the size of your stamina pool and have a cooldown on how long it takes to replenish your stamina. Your stamina pool would be different for each warframe, much the way that base armor and health are.

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11 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

The sheer amount of power creep is severely hindering any illusion of challenge.  It's at the point where some CC and defense oriented frames are rendered obsolete (Frost, Nyx, Vauban) in a majority of missions, especially the new open world areas.

Either adjust the enemies to be able to compete with said power creep, or adjust the abilities and weapons that contribute to it (fat chance).  Start with that, then we can discuss challenging content.

 

the main reason i did not suggest frame ideas is exactly this. there is just so many different types its hard to find a balance. to be honest this game was clearly not meant to have balance when i think about it lmao

. so instead of more or less doing the impossible i suggested a change to mission function via the alarms as we pretty much ignore them entirely unless were locked down because we cant reach extraction when we get locked out.

earlier i had thought cooldowns on abilities, but some abilities wont be affected by that. its a really hard topic to crunch which is why i started this thread. more heads tackling the problem is more likely to yield at least some result possibly.

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4 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

could u go perhaps into more details into the 6 difficulty levels? what makes each one different?

From what we've been told thus far it's just stats, enemies will have higher health and damage. And I know there's a bunch of people here on the forums that like to say they don't want difficulty to be bullet sponge enemies that one shot you, but honestly at this point this kind of challenge is better than no challenge at all. Anyone who's done long endurance runs without resorting to Ivara+CL or Octavia cheese (those can always be nerfed afterwards) know there's a lot more challenge to be had once enemy levels rise to the point where your optimized builds, situational awareness and mechanical skills actually start mattering. It's just extremely boring and burns you out to no end having to play the mission for 2-4 hours before you get to that point. 

Once enemies can actually hurt you and they don't melt when you sneeze in their general direction, tactical units like nullifiers, ancient healers, nox, etc. become more of a threat and DE can always add more of those tactical units over time and hopefully improve enemy AI as well. Just improving enemy AI like some people suggest won't solve the challenge issue. What's the point of smart enemies if they can't even dent your mitigations and you just AoE one shot them effortlessly anyways? 

 

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Here is a challenge.

Play the game without using mods, or arcanes on your warframes/weapons/sentinels or pets. 

We have all these mods and arcanes we have acquired, and what they do is make the game easier for us. Why else would we have ranked them up? 

 

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Here is a challenge.

Play the game without using mods, or arcanes on your warframes/weapons/sentinels or pets. 

We have all these mods and arcanes we have acquired, and what they do is make the game easier for us. Why else would we have ranked them up? 

 

octavia and frames with scaling damage wont be affected by this much. in fact i actually did this once. i took off everything that made me "stronger" and only put on QoL mods. 

being health/shield/armor/reload/magazine ect. 

while it is doable to make the mission a bit more challenging. some frames wont be bothered by this much.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I think it would go a long way if we restructured missions so everyone had some kind of role beyond just slay.  

not gonna lie i thought of fashion frame when you said slayyy 🤣

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here is a simple one to do but i doubt anyone will listen. think up a way of encouraging the player base into not using the high end level builds on 1-60 level enemies. half of the reason why the game is so easy is people use their cheese builds to cheese the rng drops that are horrible, and then people throw a fit with the potential of nerfing weapons and frames. and then people go against the idea of messing with the health and armor because they don't want everything bullet spounges. oh and don't forget when DE runs out of ideas for making "tactical difficulty" and just starts thinking just give everything knockback and any other cheep tactic.

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1 minute ago, Makunogo said:

octavia and frames with scaling damage wont be affected by this much. in fact i actually did this once. i took off everything that made me "stronger" and only put on QoL mods. 

being health/shield/armor/reload/magazine ect. 

while it is doable to make the mission a bit more challenging. some frames wont be bothered by this much.

I am thinking base stats. What would every frame and game be like with no mods at all even QOL ones. Octavia only having certain amounts of energy and her regular efficiency, she is still adept at killing as long as she can cast her abilities and collect enough energy.

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12 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Here is a challenge.

Play the game without using mods, or arcanes on your warframes/weapons/sentinels or pets. 

We have all these mods and arcanes we have acquired, and what they do is make the game easier for us. Why else would we have ranked them up? 

 

The entire point of Warframe is to farm for all these mods, weapons, frames and gear. Like literally, that's the point of the game. Atm we are complaining we don't have any content available to use all that power on, your suggestion just reverts the problem: there's no point in farming and playing the game anymore if we can't use that gear because that kills any trace of a challenge. 

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11 minutes ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

I am thinking base stats. What would every frame and game be like with no mods at all even QOL ones. Octavia only having certain amounts of energy and her regular efficiency, she is still adept at killing as long as she can cast her abilities and collect enough energy.

yes. health/shield/reload.. energy wasn't included. 

the other frame would be saryn. 

and this is part of the paradox/problem. there is just so many ways to get things done it is no wonder DE is having trouble making "difficult/engaging/harder" content. 

we gotta really think outside the basket. unfortunately stripping down all our mods is not a very feasible method. id also like to mention some weapons would automatically become meta, weapons with innate status mostly. however railjack was said to be using a different mod system so maybe you are not too far off the mark. 

the person above me made a good point.

12 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

here is a simple one to do but i doubt anyone will listen. think up a way of encouraging the player base into not using the high end level builds on 1-60 level enemies. half of the reason why the game is so easy is people use their cheese builds to cheese the rng drops that are horrible, and then people throw a fit with the potential of nerfing weapons and frames. and then people go against the idea of messing with the health and armor because they don't want everything bullet spounges. oh and don't forget when DE runs out of ideas for making "tactical difficulty" and just starts thinking just give everything knockback and any other cheep tactic.

i believe people already do this with their operators which are significantly weaker then frames generally. as in they run through missions with only the operator just to see if they can - and they can - was done quite a while ago.

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5 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

 

i believe people already do this with their operators which are significantly weaker then frames generally. as in they run through missions with only the operator just to see if they can - and they can - was done quite a while ago.

oh so those mesas that i been bumping into public instances that keep on pressing their 4 on every group they catch in their sights even if it is overkill,  were just hallucinations.

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9 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

oh so those mesas that i been bumping into public instances that keep on pressing their 4 on every group they catch in their sights even if it is overkill,  were just hallucinations.

sorry but i'm not exactly sure what you mean or are implying with this statement.

 

my response was directed at the following

" think up a way of encouraging the player base into not using the high end level builds on 1-60 level enemies. half of the reason why the game is so easy is people use their cheese builds to cheese the rng drops that are horrible"

operators dont have much to "build" on and they can deal with enemies up to around 75 - before it starts to get a  bit sluggish -

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18 minutes ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

The entire point of Warframe is to farm for all these mods, weapons, frames and gear. Like literally, that's the point of the game. Atm we are complaining we don't have any content available to use all that power on, your suggestion just reverts the problem: there's no point in farming and playing the game anymore if we can't use that gear because that kills any trace of a challenge. 

This is true. As we all start the game with nothing. We are challenged to get through the content of the game while trying to farm for the mods, weapons, frames, arcanes what be it to help us along in the higher content. Help us along in the higher content as we get stronger because we got the new mods etcs. We ranked up those mods because it made it easier to play the game.It made us stronger and more viable in missions. We have all this power because we chose to rank up and use the mods we acquired. We get so strong we wipe out everything in one trigger pull or ability cast because of all this imense power. When they up the difficulty or challenge, what will we need to do? hopefully our gear we have obtained thus far will carry us through. If it is too hard what else may we do? find better mods or rank some more up, try new builds, get a stronger frame or weapon?We complete this hard/challenging material because we have acquired the mods necessary to give us the power to complete it easily or potentionally in a less difficult manner. Then once we are done, we will just crave something harder. Why is the game not challenging now(because we are too strong, opposite the beginning of the game)? I am playing devils advocate in partial here. I agree on the challenge you are refering to.

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1 minute ago, Makunogo said:

sorry but i'm not exactly sure what you mean or are implying with this statement.

well shoot i thought it was clear as crystal when i was saying "encorage players to not use their endgame builds on the low leveled mobs" so they don't make the entire difficulty look so easy.

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2 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

well shoot i thought it was clear as crystal when i was saying "encorage players to not use their endgame builds on the low leveled mobs" so they don't make the entire difficulty look so easy.

what is an "endgame build" exactly vs a lets say a regular build? as for the mesa comment as i understand a bit more, she can probably deal with most the start chart unmodded, actually several frames can. 

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Just now, Makunogo said:

what is an "endgame build" exactly vs a lets say a regular build?

an endgame build are builds that focus too much on the killing of large ammounts of mobs in the fastest ammount of time possible, and a regular build is just a build you make to enjoy the game at decent pace.

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The Sentients decide that the “living Orokin” (that would be the Tenno) are the greatest threat and exploit Ballas’ mind to find a vulnerability and create:

Orokin Suppressor field tech.

This will be a Sentient unit type affecting large sections of the map in-mission, but will also be a ful-scale mission condition in certain situations.

The Sentients will share this tech with Grineer (Eximus Units) and Corpus (Nullifiers) to use against us.

Here’s how the concept works with a cool caveat:

All Primed Frames, Primed Weapons and Primed Mods would suffer a -50% stat penalty across the board.

The caveat is that post-Orokin era Tenno Frames, Weapons, and Mods do NOT suffer these penalties as the vulnerability/exploit does not exist.

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Why do we make endgame builds?

To survive and destroy endgame material without much difficulty, or to last longer in endless missions or to see how long we can last in those endless missions.

Why would we be trying to get that perfect riven roll. certainly not for the negative stats. We want the power, the one hit wonder that decimates all enemies as quickly as possible.

We want the game to be easy at the same time as we want it to be challenging. Thats my opinion atleast.

 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK said:

Why do we make endgame builds?

To survive and destroy endgame material without much difficulty, or to last longer in endless missions or to see how long we can last in those endless missions.

Why would we be trying to get that perfect riven roll. certainly not for the negative stats. We want the power, the one hit wonder that decimates all enemies as quickly as possible.

We want the game to be easy at the same time as we want it to be challenging. Thats my opinion atleast.

 

and thats the contradiction of warframe players. they want difficulty but the want it to be easy at the same time.

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